Author Topic: The Modern Reproduction of a Mongol Era Bow based on historical facts and ancien  (Read 3441 times)

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Offline willie

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interesting journal, thanks for the link

Offline loefflerchuck

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Thanks Tom.

Offline Hunts with stone

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Good to this posted here. Thanks

Offline bubby

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Jason posts alot on Facebook, he builds some great composites
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline gfugal

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Yeah Jason's pretty amazing at what he does.
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline gfugal

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I wonder if he has an account here, and if so knows you shared his blog?
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline Bjoern Sofeit

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I looked for the source of this bow in the Journal of Society of Archer AntiquariesVol.3, and there is only a short notice that is half a page long that they found a grave in Tsaidam (p.18). No further info on the bow or anything. Confusingly the image of this is on p.10, labeled as "600-year-old corpse of a Mongolian warrior" in an unrelated article by Charles E. Grayson about arrow straighteners.

I've asked the author for more info on this find, which should be interesting.

Offline Bjoern Sofeit

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Apparently they used a page of the old atarn front that no longer exists.

It's another type of bow that existed parallel to the type of Cagaan Chad and Shilusteii Suum, which is also mentioned in the article.

I found an old pic that I had saved some years ago:



The hardwood overlays for the nocks are missing.

This is the bow from the museum that the article in the JSAA vol.3 mentions:











The Yuan bow, this one and the bow from Chonot Uul, of which there is a detailed set of measurements available in Rutschke (2015) are the same type. The Chonot Uul bow is mentioned in the article, but they don't seem to realize that it is the same type of bow that the article is based on. There's a couple of factual errors, e.g. that this bow has a core of willow and not beech, and that contrary the quote that it is V-spliced in the ears, Rutschke (2015) states on p.84 that there are no CTs of this bow and that it is not clear how it is joined. Although, it is visible that the grip seems to be laminated by overlapping and is not spliced. The laminate also reaches into the limb. The belly of this bow is strongly convex, the glueline is flat.

It is interesting to note that the flat glueline is also the case in the bow of Cagaan Chad, which was examined via CT. That's rare.

Quite puzzling why multiple strips were taken for a reproduction of such a bow, as this is not a technique of this period. No such bows have been found from this era. Bows with multiple strips of horn were first described by Balfour (1890): Structure and Affinities of the Composite Bow. You can typically find them in persian bows several centuries later, and in another form over a strongly convex core. Which contrary to the statement in the article doesn't automatically make a bow of high drawweight, but exactly the opposite. It might, if you've never done it and didn't look up measurements of originals. Further reading in Karpowicz's book in the part about cross-sections.

I don't really understand what this article wants to do. There's alot of info and this and that from the historical side, which is nice, but what's the goal of the 2nd part, aside from promotion of the bowyer?

"The cross-section of the siyahs is close to a particular intact bow from Xining Museum."

It doesn't properly source the bow that it claims to reproduce - there is no datatable with measurements in the article, and no mention where to find those or where they really got it from -, and the design of the bow that they made doesn't match what they claim to reproduce. Neither in material, design, geometry or cross-section of the limb. Why call it a reproduction then? Ok, it's now modern. Actually, when you look into the article, it barely claims that the bow has anything to do what the article goes on about for the most part.

It's a composite bow, made the way that Jason does it, but not a reproduction or based on facts, which are available, if you want to quote them.

His scythian bows would probably qualify for this.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:48:33 am by Bjoern Sofeit »

Offline loefflerchuck

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Very Cool post. I just sent Jason some tamarisk I cut in southern Utah. I was happy to supply the wood to make his first Scythian bow of 100% accurate materials. I can't wait to see how it performs. He does make some amazing composites.

Offline Tom Dulaney

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Dear Bjoern,


Have you seen these bows, dated to the early first millennium? One bow has five strips of horn on the belly?


Am I missing something? It seems like you are saying the technique didn't exist until after the Mongol period -- yet this source apparently places it about a thousand years beforehand?

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/khotan_bow.htm

Offline Tom Dulaney

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Quote



The belly of the limb, formed of five horn plates over wood. (Adhesive tape across the middle.) Lowest plate is missing.

Offline Bjoern Sofeit

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It's not a technique present in any bow from the conquest era, that's why I said "No such bows have been found from this era."

The bow that you posted here is about 1000 years removed from this period.

Earlier multi strip constructions aren't new, they come in all sorts an shapes. We know of a hun bow where they stacked 2 horn plates in each limb on top of each other.

Why I chose to say persian bows? They are the most numerous bows that were consistently made this way. Apart from them and in some crabs, there is not much evidence apart from singular finds (e.g a Georgian multi-limb bow) that this was a technique of choice.

I wouldn't have a problem with this article, if it was true to the original geometry and proportions and sourced them properly, or how they arrived at the designs that they used based on analysis of e.g. a usable picture. If you make an article with a claim to make a reproduction of an original bow (I know, it's not even explicitly in the text, beside the title), you have to outline why and what you do, if you make changes and for what reason.

Putting together random design parts of different cultures and times, because hey, it's an ancient technique, well. It's fun, but doesn't give you any meaningful insight into the subject.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 12:29:18 am by Bjoern Sofeit »

Offline 240m3srt

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It's not a technique present in any bow from the conquest era, that's why I said "No such bows have been found from this era."

The bow that you posted here is about 1000 years removed from this period.

Earlier multi strip constructions aren't new, they come in all sorts an shapes. We know of a hun bow where they stacked 2 horn plates in each limb on top of each other.

Why I chose to say persian bows? They are the most numerous bows that were consistently made this way. Apart from them and in some crabs, there is not much evidence apart from singular finds (e.g a Georgian multi-limb bow) that this was a technique of choice.

I wouldn't have a problem with this article, if it was true to the original geometry and proportions and sourced them properly, or how they arrived at the designs that they used based on analysis of e.g. a usable picture. If you make an article with a claim to make a reproduction of an original bow (I know, it's not even explicitly in the text, beside the title), you have to outline why and what you do, if you make changes and for what reason.

Putting together random design parts of different cultures and times, because hey, it's an ancient technique, well. It's fun, but doesn't give you any meaningful insight into the subject.

I got a lot out of the article as im new to composite horn bows, and their construction.  Things like the center splice and how the siyhas are attached.  Even if it isn't 100% accurate to the particular culture/region/empire/era he claims...it still gets the point across on methods of composite horn bow construction in a  general sense.

I love history but i'm a bit fuzzy on the specifics, like when and where the exact empires existed, and what type of horn bow they used utilizing what method of construction.  It would be cool if someone explained or mapped out the different empires(time period and geographic region), the specific details on their horn bows, and the methods of construction used in their horn bows for a more in depth understanding from us less knowledgeable folks.  Maybe you could do that as you seem to know a lot about them:)

Offline Bjoern Sofeit

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That's alot to write about, and many questions remain yet to be explored.

But we could pick a specific subject like e.g. the Tsagaan Khad bow and I can do a buildalong and compare it's construction to earlier or later bows that we know of. E.g. comparing this design to another long draw bow like a Crimean Tatar.

I've bought some ram horn and straightened it, with some luck it should produce strips that allow for similar dimensions of the original. Don't expect any fast builds though, this is something that might take more than a year.