Author Topic: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad  (Read 832 times)

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Offline loefflerchuck

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Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« on: November 27, 2017, 03:18:21 pm »
Since any wood I cut I can't use in my Veritas arrow maker for a couple years, I've been using kiln dried wood with good results. Poplar, hickory, maple, oak, and birch have all worked well. I got a perfect piece of douglas fir for $80 that I planned to get about 140 shafts from. So far almost every 1/2" square I have tried to feed through has splintered and gone in the trash.
 Has anyone out there had this problem with kiln dried fir?

Online willie

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2017, 04:03:19 pm »
I have not had much trouble with doug fir that was kiln dried. but I am not torquing it into a veritas. 1/2" square seems like a lot to shave down. how fine is the grain?

not all drying kilns are operated the same. mistakes are made and sold. I had a unit of spf that was very brittle, and the carpenters blamed the drying on that.
just recently, I remembered reading that wood is often dried to different M.C. depending on where the product is intended to be shipped. ie if you live in a very dry area, your supplier might spec a lower mc to match emc of your area. wood intended for use on the coast or back east is dried not so much as it will just regain. some wood is heated to HT (high temp) specs to sterilize for export. and some, like I found recently at a small local mill, is dehumidifier dried, never going over 120F.

Offline loefflerchuck

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2017, 05:25:54 pm »
Thanks Willie. This has pretty fine grain. The 3 out of 20 that made it through without splintering had about 8-9 rings in a 11/32 shaft.

I'm in Utah, so I'd imagine if it was dried for here it is pretty dry.

Online Badger

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2017, 07:30:04 pm »
  Doug fir will dry very fast on its own. 1/2" squares would finish drying in just a couple of days if you dried out a 1X6 for about 1 month. I would want it down below about 12% before I cut it into squares so it doesn't warp. I run doug fir through my veritas tenon cutter all the time. Not sure if that is the same as the arrow maker you are talking about. I cut mine closer to 7/16 and I don't push it very hard.

Offline Bryce (Pinecone)

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2017, 10:17:58 am »
The problem probably lies in the material itself. If it's not good-straight, old growth/ tight ringed fir it won't make the best shafts.

The best way in my experience is a shafts plane. Or the surewood shafts workshop;)
Those dowel cutters are tearing out the ends right?
Deer Island, Oregon

Offline RBLusthaus

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2017, 10:47:27 am »
About a year back, I purchased a KD doug fir board from my dealer.  85 bucks.  I figured over 100 shafts, easy.  Best grain I ever saw in a board - almost perfectly straight with very little runout.  I thought I hit the lottery with this board.   

Maybe three shafts made it thru my doweler without breaking or tearing out something awful.  My experience seems to be the same as yours.  I stopped trying and used the supply of 1/2 inch squares as very expensive wood stove kindling.   

If you still have some, maybe try spritzing them with water prior to running them thru the doweler.  I have not tried this, but promised myself I would next time I have this problem.   

I am not sure if the problem was the KD or just case hardened wood, or something else entirely.    I have not tried DF since.   

Russ

Online willie

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2017, 12:30:51 pm »
The problem probably lies in the material itself........The best way in my experience is a shafts plane.
My thoughts also


Quote
If it's not good-straight, old growth/ tight ringed fir it won't make the best shafts.
Bryce, the last time I was looking at doug fir at the specialty supplier, what they stocked had very straight grain, but it was light weight and looked like the interior variety from the color. Ever try it for arrows?

Offline Bryce (Pinecone)

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2017, 12:36:05 pm »
The problem probably lies in the material itself........The best way in my experience is a shafts plane.
My thoughts also


Quote
If it's not good-straight, old growth/ tight ringed fir it won't make the best shafts.
Bryce, the last time I was looking at doug fir at the specialty supplier, what they stocked had very straight grain, but it was light weight and looked like the interior variety from the color. Ever try it for arrows?

It's the only wood I shoot. Sometimes stores sell hemlock right next to fir and even sell it as fir, but it ain't. Fir heartwood can be light brown to a pinkish hew.
Good dense fir is worth the work.
Cut into 1/2" squares and then plane the rest of the way 11/32. And I like the last 10" of my shafts tapered to 5/16 at the nock base.
Deer Island, Oregon

Online willie

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2017, 01:56:20 pm »
from usfs website

Quote
Pseudotsuga menziesii has two widely recognized varieties: menziesii, the green variety indigenous to the area west of the summit of the Cascade Range in Washington and Oregon and of the Sierra Nevada in California; and glauca, the blue Douglas-fir native to the interior mountains of the Pacific Northwest and the Rocky Mountains in the United States, and to Mexico. The division between the two varieties is not as clearly defined in Canada, although menziesii is commonly considered indigenous to the area west of the crest of the mainland Coast and Cascade Ranges.

what i have seen from the rockies seems to be quite different in color and density. Not sure what surewood uses, but if they source local, I will bet that it is coastal, which can be stiffer.

Offline loefflerchuck

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2017, 04:38:39 pm »
Bryce, The wood was perfect grain and between 26-30 rpi. Pretty tight for fir I have seen. Surewood does it best. I see they hand split their fir to season. I like the ease of the two blade shaft maker but guess if I want to use this wood hand planing is the way. How long does it take to hand plane 120 shafts? Maybe be done in a few years.

Russ, sounds like we had the exact same experience. Wish I talked to you before my purchase. You paid $5 more than me. I may give your idea a try.

The 3 shafts that did survive are around 55-58# spine at 11/32

Offline Bryce (Pinecone)

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2017, 04:47:39 pm »
from usfs website

Quote
Pseudotsuga menziesii has two widely recognized varieties: menziesii, the green variety indigenous to the area west of the summit of the Cascade Range in Washington and Oregon and of the Sierra Nevada in California; and glauca, the blue Douglas-fir native to the interior mountains of the Pacific Northwest and the Rocky Mountains in the United States, and to Mexico. The division between the two varieties is not as clearly defined in Canada, although menziesii is commonly considered indigenous to the area west of the crest of the mainland Coast and Cascade Ranges.

what i have seen from the rockies seems to be quite different in color and density. Not sure what surewood uses, but if they source local, I will bet that it is coastal, which can be stiffer.

Every Douglas Fir west of the cascades is what we use, exclusively
.
Bryce, The wood was perfect grain and between 26-30 rpi. Pretty tight for fir I have seen. Surewood does it best. I see they hand split their fir to season. I like the ease of the two blade shaft maker but guess if I want to use this wood hand planing is the way. How long does it take to hand plane 120 shafts? Maybe be done in a few years.

Russ, sounds like we had the exact same experience. Wish I talked to you before my purchase. You paid $5 more than me. I may give your idea a try.

The 3 shafts that did survive are around 55-58# spine at 11/32

Yes they do:)

A dozen or so can take 20-30 mins depending on how much coffee is in your blood stream 😁
Deer Island, Oregon

Online DC

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2017, 04:57:36 pm »
Bryce, The wood was perfect grain and between 26-30 rpi. Pretty tight for fir I have seen. Surewood does it best. I see they hand split their fir to season. I like the ease of the two blade shaft maker but guess if I want to use this wood hand planing is the way. How long does it take to hand plane 120 shafts? Maybe be done in a few years.

Russ, sounds like we had the exact same experience. Wish I talked to you before my purchase. You paid $5 more than me. I may give your idea a try.

The 3 shafts that did survive are around 55-58# spine at 11/32

Do you need all 120 now? Hand planing can go pretty quick. Make a "V" groove jig to hold them, maybe 1/2 hour each. I'm guessing, I never kept track when I was planing them.
Vancouver Island

Offline loefflerchuck

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2017, 07:41:18 pm »
Thanks for the info. No, I do not need these soon. I have plenty of other woods to feed through the Veritas that can handle it.

I'll google arrow jig for hand planning and watch a video to figure this out DC

Online DC

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2017, 08:57:12 pm »
I quite enjoy planing shafts. It's one of those, kick your mind out of gear and just do stuff things. It's very pleasing to turn a square stick into a nice round, tapered or barrelled shaft.
Vancouver Island

Offline Bryce (Pinecone)

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Re: Kiln dried Douglas fir = bad
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2017, 09:04:21 am »
Thanks for the info. No, I do not need these soon. I have plenty of other woods to feed through the Veritas that can handle it.

I'll google arrow jig for hand planning and watch a video to figure this out DC

Shoot me your email and I'll send you a arrow plane build PDF or Carson has some Strunk shaft planes on the Echo site.
Deer Island, Oregon