Author Topic: Siberian Elm Stave bow  (Read 1906 times)

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Offline Ippus

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Siberian Elm Stave bow
« on: March 19, 2018, 07:49:47 pm »
So, let me start by saying this'll be the first time I've really taken a shot at a non-board bow, so I'm looking for advice. This stave is a bit gnarly, but it's the best I can do right now - need to get a hunting bow (minimum of 40# @ 28", although I'd like a bit more) ready to go so I can get some real practice in before this fall.

I started with this (the knotty one in the middle): http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,60130.msg837465.html#msg837465


I picked that one because even though it had some lateral bend and a couple of knots (and about 45 degrees of clockwise tist) it was the most solid of the three (elm being elm, it didn't want to split evenly, and the other two aren't very thick - probably try and make one for my kid out of them later).

Anyway, after much sweating and clamping, I managed to heat out most of the twist and get it straight.


It's pretty good up to about that first knot, but then I get a bit of clockwise twist that I still haven't been able to get out.


The heartwood seems really tough, and I've got about 3-4 rings of white wood on top of that.


So. My question is this: If this were what you had to work with, what would you do with it?

I don't really have the resources to back it, I think.

1. Length
It's 67" total, about 47" to that first knot, 60" to the second. Should I:
a) Try to use the whole length and work around those knots/branches toward the upper end?
b) Lose a few inches off the end and just work around one knot?
c) Hack it down to 47" and make a shorter bow.

2. Style
I think as short as it is, I'm probably going to want the whole thing bending, or at least partly bending through the handle.
a) Can I manage something ELB-ish? Welsh longbow? http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,60090.0.html
b) Or should I stick with something closer to a North American-style pyramid bow? (since that's kinda what I'm used to tillering - never made an ELB yet)

3. Other
Given the length challenges (and my relative inexperience)
a) Should I keep the handle bendy?
b) Should I bother trying to make use of the natural reflex or keep the tips stiff/flipped or anything like that?
"There is nothing quite so gentle, deep, and irrational as our running — and nothing quite so savage and so wild.” Bernd Heinrich

Offline Redhand

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Re: Siberian Elm Stave bow
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2018, 08:15:49 pm »
I have had good luck with siberian elm,
a little bit of propeller twist doesn't hurt. 
In my experience with siberian elm the grain is swirly so be careful with the draw knife you can rip out the grain and ruin a stave.  If it was me i would stick with a rasp.
You shouldn't need to use any kind of backing siberian elm is tension strong as long as you didn't violate the back when removing the bark.
67" would be plenty for a hunting weight bow and the knots would give is some nice character. 

Not trying to steal your thread, here are some siberian elm bows I made, take a look and maybe you can figure out a design for your bow.....
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,58077.0.html
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,57127.0.html
Northern Ute

Offline Ippus

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Re: Siberian Elm Stave bow
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2018, 08:50:23 pm »
Thanks, Redhand!

That actually reminded me of a couple additional questions I meant to pose in the original post:

1) Given the thickness of the stave, should I bother trying to go down a ring? (I mean, elm's not like Osage, where you mostly want to get down to theheartwood, right?)

2) Can anyone recommend a good buildalong for something like this?
"There is nothing quite so gentle, deep, and irrational as our running — and nothing quite so savage and so wild.” Bernd Heinrich

Offline Ippus

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Re: Siberian Elm Stave bow
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 08:57:58 pm »
Also,I totally agree about the grain. "Interlocking" is the word I keep hearing around. I made the mistake of trying to shave off a couple of splintery bits from the belly with my whittling knife, and came away with a lot bigger pieces than I bargained for!
"There is nothing quite so gentle, deep, and irrational as our running — and nothing quite so savage and so wild.” Bernd Heinrich

Offline JWMALONE

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Re: Siberian Elm Stave bow
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2018, 09:12:17 pm »
Yep that's how it happened with me, red oak boards to staves. I made a Cherokee stlye bow 65 inches. Shoots like a dream at 58 pounds wide diamond tips and all. Bend in the handle slightly. Ive never works elm, I will enjoy watching.  Good luck and Good Hunting.
Red Oak its the gateway wood!

Offline Ippus

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Re: Siberian Elm Stave bow
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2018, 09:40:53 pm »
I think the rings are pretty thick, but I'm not sure how thick. That outermost one is either two rings at ~1/4-3/16" with almost no visible early wood, or else one big one at like 5/8".
"There is nothing quite so gentle, deep, and irrational as our running — and nothing quite so savage and so wild.” Bernd Heinrich

Offline Redhand

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Re: Siberian Elm Stave bow
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2018, 10:16:00 pm »
You shouldn't need to go down to the heartwood, use the sapwood as the back of the bow.
Northern Ute

Offline jeffp51

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Re: Siberian Elm Stave bow
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2018, 07:47:46 pm »
I think the sapwood may actually be better. It was on the bows I made.

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Siberian Elm Stave bow
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 11:46:04 pm »
SAPWOOD for sure. And Siberian elm isn't bad wood at all. 

 Having done a lot of elm sapling bows, your current issue is that you are now working with the lowest common denominator, know what I mean?  Somewhere that belly split to a narrow lengthwise ridge and once you get it down, there's gonna be less wood than you would like, wish, or a place where it's already narrowest, and that is now you default maximum width, etc....  That's OK.  You just want to get the most out of this stave.

  So, you gotta go for it.    Find the narrowest, thinnest, and longest dimensions you ACTUALLY have, and trim up the stave to correspond to those.  Take all the width you can get for now.  Square it up to the back as best you can, find the peak of the crown and mark your centerline.  Next work the thickness until the whole thing is consistent, and go for the BITH bow. 

One approach I like is that once the stave is same width and same thickness all along, you KNOW it's going to bend in the middle, right?  So, now, methodically thin the entire stave until the middle starts to flex.  Just barely flex.  I do something like mentally or with crayon mark out the bow in five equal sections,  each 20% of the length.  Once that middle 20% flexes AT ALL, get that whole middle section bending the same and then mark or tape it off, and don't touch it.   Move to the next section on each side of the middle.   Methodically remove the same amount of wood from both limbs along the whole bow (except the middle, of course).  Do this by either floor tillering or by stepping on a longstring.  BARELY flexing....

I use the method where you rasp until rasp marks cover the whole belly, then scrape off the rasp marks until none are visible.  Same each side.  Eventually, those sections will flex, Just a little like the middle did.  Usually one will and the other won't.   Leave the one that flaxes alone and methodically remove wood from the stiff one.  WHOLE LIMB, not just the section.  Say after two passes, or five, it'll flex, too.    Stop here and narrow the bow down side to side in that last section.    Check again.  At this stage it's usually ll bending some, but you are only flexing the tips a few inches.

If the stave feels ridiculously heavy, make several passes of rasping and scraping the whole bow.  Take it all off slowly and consistently.   From here work it to brace height, making sure yu aren't pulling it much above intended draw weight.  Once braced, the whole bow will be bending, but not perfectly, and it's easy to see where it needs removal.   Tiller it out on tree or stick as normal, pulling it only to the intended draw weight.   That's how I get a rough stave to the tiller stick, and it works well if you have never done a split stave before.