Author Topic: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)  (Read 54780 times)

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Offline Tim Baker

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #135 on: April 20, 2018, 03:26:08 am »

The 46" bamboo-cotton-sinew test bow, a touch of sinew-tillering needed.

Offline Tim Baker

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #136 on: April 20, 2018, 03:47:56 am »
Wasn't sure hide glue would grip the cotton firmly enough to prevent it 'straightening itself' up off of the bamboo while drying, so lashed it in place with cotton string till hard dry. It held, so removed the string wrap, braced and drew it to 15". After touching up the tiller with sinew it will be tested at 20" and 22" with a 10gpp arrow. If it does well Steve/Badger will shoot it at the coming MO meet. And the next version too, if ready. It will have a rectangular-section sinew back, likely elevated as high as the crown top on this one, cotton spacer replaced by unknown-at-present.

Offline BowEd

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #137 on: April 20, 2018, 08:15:30 am »
I see.Good picture.Filling concavity of bamboo with cotton.Then sinewing over that.
BowEd
You got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.
Ed

Offline willie

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #138 on: April 20, 2018, 01:53:38 pm »
if ever curious, just replace the present bridges with same-height no-friction rolling ones
Quite the idea, I am finding out with this narrow bow, that the bridges need grooves to keep the cable centered, and if the bridges were free to roll, they would also need tracks to run in. It might be interesting to shoot alongside some compound shooters at the club with something like this. you might  have a hard time saying  "just a different way to use wheels and cables, guys" while trying to keep a straight face.

In spite of the potential for improvements with the cable idea, the main impetus behind my experiment is to work out the "round cable vs tapered limb" question posed earlier, and to also explore the hollow back idea (from mid-limb out), and the hollow limb idea (from mid-limb in), and of course the idea of utilizing a "natural belly" (high surface density) bamboo for the belly.

Thanks for posting the pics of your bow with some detail. As like Ed, I am curious how much hollow you filled with the  cotton matrix? What do you think is the original diameter of your bamboo? and how wide is the bow at present?

You are using judicious applications of sinew to tiller the shape of the reflex?  Have you helped to shape it in any mechanical way? What do you think of the idea of twisting the sinew before gluing? Controlling tension was reported "to be the most difficult part of the operation"?

 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 05:14:26 pm by willie »

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #139 on: April 20, 2018, 03:28:29 pm »
  Hey, thanks for posting the pics, Tim, I had had trouble visualizing how much, how thick, the cotton was and hadn't gotten to paleoplanet.net to check the pic.  (My work computers hate that site.)

  I was envisioning that wrong, in fact. I was envisioning a more flat, plank-like belly and an actual cotton spacer.

  Edit:  OK, I actually see that I was essentially correct the second time.   The bamboo IS from a large diameter piece, the hollow IS filled, but cotton rises yet a bit above that. 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 04:52:31 pm by Springbuck »

Offline Tim Baker

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #140 on: April 20, 2018, 03:40:20 pm »

BowEd:
'
" I see.Good picture.Filling concavity of bamboo with cotton.Then sinewing over that."

Yes, the concavity was filled with cotton-glue but also rising well above level, elevating the sinew, the main mass of the sinew high up. The next version will be flat oak, slightly trapped spacer, rectangular section sinew.

willie:

The bamboo's original diameter was 5 inches. There's up to 11" diameter versions but have not found a source as yet.

It would be making grooved roller bridges just to be able to enact your compound-shooters scenario. 

" You are using judicious applications of sinew to tiller the shape of the reflex?"

Only to do fine tuning of the tiller, since the bamboo belly can't be touches.

" Have you helped to shape it in any mechanical way?..."

Just the original holding the bamboo in reflex while sinewed.

"What do you think of the idea of twisting and pretensioning the sinew before gluing? It was reported "to be the most difficult part of the operation"?'

I think a rectangular section is most efficient, and twisting introduces energy-wasting give to some extent. But argue back.

Springbuck:

Yes, the first version was quick and dirty. The next will have rectangular sinew.

Offline PatM

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #141 on: April 20, 2018, 03:57:29 pm »
I'm a bit skeptical about that sinewing account linked to above.    Twisting of strands in a composite material is something you'll never hear recommended.  Tendons are  likely linear for a reason with an already built in elasticity component.

 All the pinnacle of sinewing bows had  almost obsessively combed straight fibers.

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #142 on: April 20, 2018, 05:15:30 pm »
Willie:    "that the bridges need grooves to keep the cable centered, and if the bridges were free to roll, they would also need tracks to run in."

   Absolutely, you need grooves in string bridges for centering, or you need lashing.  Rolling bridges could have "lips" that hang over the sides, grooves, or tracks. 

  One thing I liked about the concept of candy-stripe lashing small diameter bamboo was that the twine of the lashing could roll slightly to accomodate the movement of the cable.  One thing I DIDN'T like about that, was that it would likely create lots of wear on the lashings and cable, as well.

Tim:  "The next version will be flat oak, slightly trapped spacer, rectangular section sinew."

  Ok, then, idea here, Tim.  Multiple layers of fabric, cotton or linen, could be stacked for the spacer.  They could be glued together with just a wipe of wood glue or thick hide glue.   The crossed weave of the fabric would give SOME additional innate integrity.   If cut from fabric in DIAGONAL, rather than lengthwise strips, they would contribute NO stiffness to the backing or spacer.

Tim: "Only to do fine tuning of the tiller, since the bamboo belly can't be touches."  THIS is one of the advantages of the rectangular or trapped cross section, for sure.   Good ol' side tillering.


Tim:  Re: "What do you think of the idea of twisting and pre-tensioning the sinew before gluing? It was reported "to be the most difficult part of the operation"?

   "I think a rectangular section is most efficient, and twisting introduces energy-wasting give to some extent. But argue back."

   I think the most efficient cross section is the one that contributes the least weight AND takes the least set.  I THINK you are correct about rectangle cross sections when dealing with wood, but I'm not totally sure, since both trapped and crowned limbs work very well for me.

   I will point you in the direction of a bamboo specie called "tre gai" which is smaller diameter, but is enormously dense and has thick walls, and is much harder to split than moso or Taiwan bamboo.   A 2" diameter piece will have a hollow middle only about 1/2", but the most dense portion near the surface will be more than 3/8" thick and SOLID.  I tried to break a 3' test piece by whacking it on an anvil made from a chunk of railroad track.  It broke......eventually, but I could barely dent it at first.

 As you know, when using sinew, we have the unique ability to relieve belly stress.   A flat belly may be best, but a crowned belly may not be the disaster it is with a wood backing, say.

  As far as cables are concerned, there are ways around twisting to pre-tension.  Working from forced reflex rather than twisting, having two or more counter-twisted cables, multiple smaller cables running parallel, etc. 

  Finally, question.  What are you doing toward the tips?  Does the cotton peter out in thickness?  Are you binding down the three layers together, or adding more glue to really secure the whole thing at the tips?  Or is it just the same sandwich with exposed layers all the way to the ends?

« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 05:53:58 pm by Springbuck »

Offline willie

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #143 on: April 20, 2018, 05:46:22 pm »
Quote
I'm a bit skeptical about that sinewing account linked to above.
from wikipedia
Otis Tufton Mason, Ph.D., LL.D. (April 10, 1838 – November 5, 1908) was an American ethnologist and Smithsonian Institution curator.
 We know him better as the author of North American Bows Arrows and Quivers. He cites "Ray" as his source.

Twisting the sinew into small bundles, letting them dry some, then sticking down with a glue ball and binding with twine seems like a way to control the tension in different parts of the back, perhaps varying the shrinkage and resulting reflex to create the reflex profile desired? A little different maybe than how Tim is tillering with sinew? And a different design than the "pinnacle" bow with straight fibers,  if Pat is referring to a Turkish or other eastern bow.

As an ethnologist, Mason seems to have comparatively studied reports from different expeditions. If this is the case here, the account would be twice removed from the bowyer, and be made by someone who may have never made a bow.

As an alternative to being skeptical, I would rather bring my insights as a bowyer to parse possibly blurry facts, in order to gain understanding about methods  I can only hope to duplicate. btw, can anyone point to an original Hupa or Klamath bow? the illustrations shows a rather straight back with flipped tips. If there was natural drying induced "reflex", the bowyer possibly started the sinew application with a deflexed stave.
I did find a report from a P H Ray expedition dated 1884. 700+ pages. Maybe there are some additional worthwhile observations inside.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 06:00:07 pm by willie »

Offline PatM

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2018, 05:47:28 pm »
Why not curl the bamboo up like a Korean Bow before sinewing?

Offline PatM

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #145 on: April 20, 2018, 05:53:07 pm »
Quote
I'm a bit skeptical about that sinewing account linked to above.
from wikipedia
Otis Tufton Mason, Ph.D., LL.D. (April 10, 1838 – November 5, 1908) was an American ethnologist and Smithsonian Institution curator.
 We know him better as the author of North American Bows Arrows and Quivers. He cites "Ray" as his source.

Twisting the sinew into small bundles, letting them dry some, then sticking down with a glue ball and binding with twine seems like a way to control the tension in different parts of the back, perhaps varying the shrinkage and resulting reflex to create the reflex profile desired? A little different maybe than how Tim is tillering with sinew? And a different design than the "pinnacle" bow with straight fibers,  if Pat is referring to a Turkish or other eastern bow.

As an ethnologist, Mason seems to have comparatively studied reports from different expeditions. If this is the case here, the account would be twice removed from the bowyer, and be made by someone who may have never made a bow.

As an alternative to being skeptical, I would rather bring my insights as a bowyer to parse possibly blurry facts, in order to gain understanding about methods  I can only hope to duplicate. btw, can anyone point to an original Hupa or Klamath bow? the illustrations shows a rather flat back with flipped tips. If there was natural drying induced "reflex", the bowyer possibly started the sinew application with a deflexed stave.
I did find a report from a P H Ray expedition dated 1884. 700+ pages. Maybe there are some additional worthwhile observations inside.

  You can see a Hupa bow in Pope's Study of Bows and Arrows.

    Bows tend to work on the same principle so a Hupa bow and a Turkish bow have a lot more in common than not.

Offline willie

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #146 on: April 20, 2018, 05:58:35 pm »
Quote
Rolling bridges could have "lips" that hang over the sides, grooves, or tracks. 
or maybe just a marble sized to fit inside the bamboo with a short groove on top >:D
there are lots of cool ideas waiting to be tried, but one can only build so many bows.

Quote
Why not curl the bamboo up like a Korean Bow before sinewing?
curl up in which direction?

found this, but no side profile
https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/pope/a-study-of-bows-and-arrows/docs/plate04.html

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #147 on: April 20, 2018, 06:08:12 pm »
I'm a bit skeptical about that sinewing account linked to above.    Twisting of strands in a composite material is something you'll never hear recommended.  Tendons are  likely linear for a reason with an already built in elasticity component.

  Might be true, but wood is made of molecular chains that twist around each other.  Those bundles twist around each other, etc.

  This is different from grain, micro-level stuff.   Just as an aside. 

  But, I definitely think longitudinal sinew would be better than twisted, though.    You need a lot more mass to get the same resistance.  It'll stretch farther as a cord, since we have to stretch the sinew pretty darn far to get the most out of it,that doesn't help us.

The cables BEST application is the other stuff won't work. 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 07:19:45 pm by Springbuck »

Offline willie

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #148 on: April 20, 2018, 07:19:10 pm »
"What do you think of the idea of twisting and pretensioning the sinew before gluing? It was reported "to be the most difficult part of the operation"?'

I think a rectangular section is most efficient, and twisting introduces energy-wasting give to some extent. But argue back.

 In retrospect, I think I got the pretensioning (the bundle) idea a bit wrong on the first reading.
 
Is "energy wasting" the same as  "not getting it's full potential?" It does seem like the Hupa bow is not all that reflexed, Why? is there something going on with manipulating drying tensions? Perhaps something similar to how you suspect a core that has some give in the right places could be advantageous? I cant prove it, but I suspect that stretching something as far as it is capable of being stretched, just because it can, may not always be the best application of the materiel, at least when the goal is avoiding hysteresis.
 

Offline PatM

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #149 on: April 20, 2018, 09:19:25 pm »
"Hupa bow (pl. 4, fig. 15). A typical California Indian bow, made of a good quality of yew, broad and flat in the limbs, heavily backed with sinew, and having nocks formed of overlapping and circular bands of the same material. It is strongly reflexed. The handgrip is of buckskin thong bound about the center. It is painted red and blue in a checkered design over the back. Length, 47 inches; diameters: below handgrip, 1½ by ½ inches, circumference, 3¾ inches; at mid-limb, 2¼ by ⅜, circum­ference, 4¾ inches; at tips, ⅞ by 7/16, circumference 2 inches. The string is very smoothly twisted sinew resem­bling a cello string, having a formed loop at the top, and made fast at the lower nock by slipknots. A bit of cotton string extends from the loop to the upper nock. When braced this bow is very musical, has a soft, even draw, and weighs 40 pounds; drawn 22 inches, it shoots 148 yards. In action it bends in the center and consequently kicks in the hand. It would seem to be a good bow for small game"


 From Pope's book