Author Topic: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)  (Read 54753 times)

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Offline Tim Baker

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2018, 03:09:47 pm »
BowEd:

What method did you use to determine the 1/3 figure? Can you say a step-by-step?

Offline willie

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2018, 03:10:36 pm »
Tim, while we are waiting Springbucks reply, could you clarify?

Image a semi-rigid spacer, rigid enough to prevent the narrow outer-limb sinew from stretching dangerously more than the wider gripward sinew, but flexible enough to not fail when drawn from large reflex to a full draw
That's essentially the case with this bamboo/cotton-glue/sinew test bow. Surely not optimum, but worth noting.

Are you suggesting a purposeful and localized amount of slippage in parts of the limb might be helpful?



 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 07:06:03 pm by willie »

Offline BowEd

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2018, 04:02:44 pm »
Tim....I diagnosed that from pre weighing everything from start to finish on a scale.Scale I used measures down to the 1/20th of an ounce increments.So that's about a 22 grain variable.Writing it down so I don't forget....lol.As an example.Weigh amount of sinew/weigh bow prior to sinewing.Final weight reweighed after curing 4 months.Difference will be the amount of glue on bow.I did use Pat M's method of wrapping and smoothing of sinew after sinewing to reduce sanding of sinew too with some minor sanding and light resizing between applications of sinew.I usually apply sinew in 3 applications increasing reflex with reverse bracer a bit more each time.Latest bow's numbers came in at 2.64 ounces of sinew and half that 1.32 ounces of glue.For a total of 3.96 ounces of sinew glue matrix.
Problem can come from that sinew curing more the next six months to a total of 1 year draw weight would still increase but not decreasing mass weight.So retillering down draw weight is required.After 4 months curing decrease in mass weight is very very minimal with sinew/glue mass amount as I'm sure you know already.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 04:07:22 pm by BowEd »
BowEd
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Ed

Offline PatM

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2018, 04:16:56 pm »
FWIW the natural  "glue" holding together a living tendon contributes to the ultimate tensile strength and stiffness of the tendon.  That makes me think that sinew in a glue matrix  enhances that  too, especially since it gets cured and dried.

 Tendon actually starts to fail at about 3.5% and then totally fails beyond that point according to some studies.

 So I think a  typically reflexed sinewed bow drawn to closer to the belly wood limit probably brings sinew closer to its failure point than typically mentioned.

Offline sleek

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2018, 04:26:18 pm »
Seems that a whipped glue matrix will crack, crumble and fail as it is bent, then sinew stretching and pushing down on it. The sinew will delam from the belly if that happens.
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Offline Springbuck

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2018, 04:34:40 pm »
Tim says:  A back is as stiff as it's least-stiff area. If the cable is not uniform in diameter the narrow less-stiff areas would seem to represent the net stiffness of the back, the thicker areas being partially dead weight. The thinner areas will be stretched farther than thicker areas, possibly to failure."  Even though the thicker area are harder to stretch I need to determine if they actually are storing less energy per mass than the thinner areas. Intuition isn't dependable.

  So, this I knew already from reading your stuff, etc. , and I believe it's totally accurate.  Let me add that a sinew cable is usually made of multiple smaller strands in order to eliminate weak and thin spots in the same way multiple strands benefit a bowstring, for that very reason.

Tim Says:    Even though the thicker area are harder to stretch I need to determine if they actually are storing less energy per mass than the thinner areas. Intuition isn't dependable. 

Intuition is NOT dependable, true.  But, since sinew is SO elastic in tension, I doubt it is analogous to, say, limb thickness.  We know a thick limb even even a small amount stores a BUNCH of energy.  I may be wrong, but it seems to me that energy storage through elastic stretching is more dependent on travel, but that any amount of stretch stores energy.  This should be testable by snipping a wide rubber band slightly narrower in one spot.  I do however believe strapping or anchoring a cable down in one or several spots can change everything.

If the spacer DOESN'T have to be light weight, why are we using the glue-soaked cotton and not some other material?  Or am I missing the point entirely of your design?

Tim says: "Yes,  if two slats of wood they must rigidly be keep from slipping in relation to each other.   But this might not be absolutely the case if the back is sinew."

 OK, but I'm fairly sure it needs to be anchored at least somewhat to the belly to maintain their positional relationship.

 What I mean is, I'm imagining a paddle bow, backed with sinew which covers the whole face of the back.  The sinew back is essentially the same front shape as the belly.  Now, similar to your experiment here, we somehow lift the entire sinew back and add a "spacer".

 IF the sinew backing now floats unsecured atop the spacers, bound to the belly only at the tips, or even tips and handle, it basically becomes a badly misshapen, flat cable, over-stressed where it is narrowest.

 IF, however, we do what you did, using glue-soaked cotton, the cotton is glued to the belly and the sinew back is glued to the cotton, indirectly anchoring the back to the belly. 

Am I understanding this correctly?  Does the cotton serve any functions I'm not imagining, besides anchor and spacer?

Tim says:  Imagine a semi-rigid spacer, rigid enough to prevent the narrow outer-limb sinew from stretching dangerously more than the wider gripward sinew, but flexible enough to not fail when drawn from large reflex to a full draw

That's essentially the case with this bamboo/cotton-glue/sinew test bow. Surely not optimum, but worth noting."



 That answered my question......



BTW, I'm ok to argue, but I mean to feed you ideas and perspectives that may help you further develop the idea. 

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2018, 04:40:21 pm »
Is the glue fraction actually that small in a typical backing?
 
 Still not sure why you want a spacer but are averse to a wood spacer

  I think of it this way, Pat.  I don't do a lot of sinew myself, but I do know I can sinew back a bow with no more than two packets of Knox gelatine for glue, that together don't make a dry tablespoon, and weight about what a sheet of paper does.

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2018, 04:46:38 pm »
willie:   BTW, Spring buck . "A cable of uniform diameter and strength, pulled from both ends, must stretch uniformly." seems like reasonable assertion, but I have seen industrial examples that don't work that way. Enough for now, but if it seems to be relevant later in the discussion, I can describe the example, but have no explanation why it happens."

  Yeah, THAT is something I would like to see and understand better.

willie:  Tim, you have  made the claim a few times that doubling thickness of your stave yielded approx 400% increase. Is that the same as 4 times the stiffness? I thought that a doubling of thickness was supposed to increase stiffness 8 times in a uniform materiel. Different people figure percentages different ways. One common method is ...the difference between loads divided by the original load.
[/quote]

    Double thickness = 8 X stiffness works for wood.  Sinew is both more stretchy and EASIER to stretch than wood.  Per mass.

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2018, 04:51:07 pm »
Part of the uniform cable problem is that it carries unnecessary mass out at the tips.  A lot of these experimental designs look promising and then they get dragged down by all the unforeseen extras.

 Springbuck mentions all sorts of lashing and bracing with extra strands which all has to be put in motion.

Yes, that is true and I've given it a lot of thought.   For instance, using 1" bamboo to make the "U" shaped cross section would mean I need to solve a problem with my tips being almost as wide and massive as the rest.  Definitely would need to be managed.

However, if you START with half the original necessary mass, you have a lot of wiggle room.  The lashing and binding I'm talking about is on the scale of 20 feet of twine, and will weigh much less than half the wood mass of a limb.   

Offline PatM

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2018, 05:16:35 pm »
You could probably use  two tapered bamboo halves spliced together at the center.  A thickness taper would get you a reasonable narrowing.  Bamboo is thinner walled  farther out so you'd retain the hollow center.

Offline PatM

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2018, 05:18:27 pm »
Is the glue fraction actually that small in a typical backing?
 
 Still not sure why you want a spacer but are averse to a wood spacer

  I think of it this way, Pat.  I don't do a lot of sinew myself, but I do know I can sinew back a bow with no more than two packets of Knox gelatine for glue, that together don't make a dry tablespoon, and weight about what a sheet of paper does.


   How many layers? 

Offline BowEd

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2018, 05:41:29 pm »
The amount of glue for Tims' bow mass weight wise should'nt need to be more than 290 grains or so.With the balance in weight in sinew making up to the 2 ounces put on the bow.So my estimation of sinew applied without knowing would be around 580 grains or so of sinew used.It's a fairly significant layer of sinew used.On a bow 46" long put on full length it would probably end up a barely 1/16" thick.Depending how wide the limbs are of course as that was'nt stated.
I would think if the bow was at least 1.5" wide you would have a hard time making the sinew layer flat on a crowned back without leaving the center area a bit light in thickness.So here comes the cotton to make that flat first.Then the sinew on top of that flat cotton.
I see what Tim is doing.That's for sure.Interesting.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 11:40:57 pm by BowEd »
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Ed

Offline Springbuck

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2018, 06:42:38 pm »
sleek said:  "Energy is stored at the back and belly, but only because those at the surfaces where the energy accumulates. Its coming from the neutral plane. You could say the neutral plane is the compression and tension force generator, sending energy out to the flat surfaces above and below it. "

  Yes!  I wouldn't have phrased it quite this way, but, yes....  the neutral plane like is the fulcrum of a teeter-totter.

  Belly compresses, but it WANTS back to stretch.  Back stretches, but it would rather force belly to compress.  I don't think the shear forces actually STORE much energy  (because shearing is all or nothing, catastrophic) but the whole rest of the bow must EITHER store energy by bending, or shear and collapse.

Offline PatM

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2018, 06:55:32 pm »


 A  glueless sinew cable is easy to find. It's called a dried whole tendon. ;)

 I meant that the core and belly would have perry reflex themselves rather than just being a single thicker piece.

 Biologically, a whole, dried tendon is FULL of glue.  It was just produced in place by a cellular process.

  And, a sinew backing cannot pull itself into "Perry reflex" as it dries, just reflex.  Those are mechanically very different things, let alone different by definition.
[/quote]

   That glue however is designed to work in "wet" form.  It's far more complex than just hide glue.
 
  You misunderstood the perry reflex comment.   I meant that the core material and belly would have perry reflex between them and the sinew and core would also have it between them because the sinew would be applied with the core material in feflex as well.

    The increased reflex from drying is just gravy.  The sinew is already functionally shorter because of the way it was glued on.

Offline sleek

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Re: Post For Tim Baker ( Sinew)
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2018, 06:58:14 pm »
sleek said:  "Energy is stored at the back and belly, but only because those at the surfaces where the energy accumulates. Its coming from the neutral plane. You could say the neutral plane is the compression and tension force generator, sending energy out to the flat surfaces above and below it. "

  Yes!  I wouldn't have phrased it quite this way, but, yes....  the neutral plane like is the fulcrum of a teeter-totter.

  Belly compresses, but it WANTS back to stretch.  Back stretches, but it would rather force belly to compress.  I don't think the shear forces actually STORE much energy  (because shearing is all or nothing, catastrophic) but the whole rest of the bow must EITHER store energy by bending, or shear and collapse.

Im glad you get it. As for any energy being stored in sheer, id wager that is what we call hysteresis. Its not actually stored energy, but energy lost, as Tim ( i think but maybe someone else ) puts it, due to internal friction.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others