Author Topic: why are histories so skewed?  (Read 11455 times)

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Offline stuckinthemud

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why are histories so skewed?
« on: July 28, 2019, 02:04:53 pm »
It's no secret that I love medieval crossbows almost as much as I love archery and that I am also Welsh, so suffer from a huge conflict of interest and a  certain amount of leg-pulling.  I've been up to a major festival in which there were a small core of medieval reenacters who were keen war-bow guys, one shooting a 130lb yew war-bow.  Discussion turned to crossbows; quoth the archer, "the English did not use cross-bows unless they hired in Genoese mercenaries"  - blatantly untrue, the English used a huge number of military crossbows and not only in the Navy but with land troops and castle assault/defense.  Equally most argue that continental militias only used crossbows but in fact the majority of citizens turned out with bows as most couldn't afford crossbows.  Also, the vast majority of crossbows were wooden not composite.  So, why are our histories so skewed that even really knowledgeable historians can't get it right??

Offline Hawkdancer

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2019, 02:44:41 pm »
Mostly lack of proper research, also a certain amount of bias towards a specific point of view.  This situation invades history in general, especially since the losers seldom write history >:D (lol)!  There are also many who merely accept what is said or written without question, as well.
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Offline Deerhunter21

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2019, 03:43:27 pm »
+1 for hawk. history is very biased and even now historians only believe what they think is true.
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Offline Del the cat

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2019, 04:14:07 pm »
There is a lack of critical thought.
Classic is "Arrow slits" in the walls of a castle. I'd say that almost all would be impossible to shoot out of, generally due to low ceilings and the fact that a flexing arrow would have trouble getting out. But they would protect from arrows coming in.
I won't comment much on the crossbows, but they would certainly have been used from castles probably as a snipers weapon.
Del
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Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2019, 04:53:43 pm »
There is a lack of critical thought.
Classic is "Arrow slits" in the walls of a castle. I'd say that almost all would be impossible to shoot out of, generally due to low ceilings and the fact that a flexing arrow would have trouble getting out. But they would protect from arrows coming in.
I won't comment much on the crossbows, but they would certainly have been used from castles probably as a snipers weapon.
Del

Just saw this last night on a series called "Timeline". They argued the different merits and drawbacks of both longbow and crossbow.  In a besieged castle the crossbowman has the luxury of taking time to span his machine and the bolts/quarrels don't wigglewaggle like a clothyard shaft. So the slits worked great to limit shots coming in, allowing sniping at anyone approaching the wall.
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Offline meanewood

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2019, 08:49:24 pm »
Just because someone is using a 130lb Warbow doesn't make him a expert on medieval  history!

If you go to that type of event, you have to accept there will be a truck load of BS circulating

Offline Ringeck85

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2019, 11:32:22 am »
Quote
Also, the vast majority of crossbows were wooden not composite.

Stuckinthemud, I would love to read up on this if you know any sources (primary or secondary) that state or show/mention this?  I know that certainly most crossbows were not the best steel prods that you needed a crank for (I think those are absolutely amazing!), but wouldn't wooden prods be considerably weaker? I suppose they would be a lot easier and cheaper to make, possibly be slightly less vulnerable to water damage, but pack considerably less punch? A lot of people have the misconception that crossbows are like automatic armor piercers, when it depends a lot on the prod material, draw weight, draw length, bolt weight, aim and angle of the shot, distance shot, and probably a bunch of factors that my coffee-deprived brain can't think of right now.

"It is how we choose what we do, and how we approach it, that determines whether the sum of our days adds up to a formless blur, or to something resembling a work of art."
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Offline stuckinthemud

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2019, 01:32:22 pm »
There are several on-line articles that are a fascinating read but this (themcs.org/weaponry/crossbows/crossbows.htm ) by the Medieval Combat Society is a real eye-opener when you read the timeline at the end of the page, here is one entry:

"1321 Marino Sanuto a Ventian known as Torsello delivered a list of weapons for a proposed crusade and lists crossbows with wooden bows two-foot stirrups, and that composite bows were better in dry areas than in countries with humid climates, M. Jahns, G. Kohler."

or

"1344 and 1366 Dover inventories show 126 crossbows, 34 of which had composite bows with two-foot stirrups and 9 composite bows with one-foot stirrup, and 3 large windlass crossbows, G. Kohler."

That's only 43 of the 126 crossbows that were composite.

or

"1362 Burgundian accounts list 189 light and heavy crossbows with composite bows, and 382 light crossbows with wooden bows. Additionally crossbows with one-foot stirrups, two-foot stirrups and windlasses are listed, and rampart crossbows, B. Rathgen."



There are several yew crossbows still surviving, and, at least one identified as red oak, but I suspect is more likely to be yew.  Also, I suspect that a bow needing a two-foot stirrup might be pretty potent when you consider how physically strong fighting men of that period needed to be.  Wooden bows are certainly easier and cheaper than metal or composite but in a cold wet climate might also perform nearly as well?  For the person paying, easier, quicker, cheaper might be motive enough to ignore 'not quite as good'
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 02:46:13 pm by stuckinthemud »

Offline Ringeck85

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2019, 04:14:53 pm »
Fascinating I will look into reading those when I can!!

I think crossbow design is probably very different depending on when we are talking about too.  In the 1300s, I would suspect that the metallurgical skill was much rarer for steelcrossbow prods (I wonder when the first of those were produced? Probably in that century...).

But I would think during the 1400s, since steel production/quality overall in Europe improved dramatically, and by the 1500s crossbows with well forged steel prods were pretty common, I think (?) as by then smelting furnaces burned hotter, steel production was more advanced in general, and quenching/tempering steel was mastered in more places, especially for high quality armor productoin (did you see that brief documentary, "Secrets of the Shining Knight" where they reproduced a tempered steel breastplate and tested it to be "bullet proof"?). 

 Another Example: crossbows were used more often than matchlock arquebuses by the early so-called "Conquistadors" in their misadventures/conquests in the New World. I'll look into whether any of those might have been wooden or composite...I don't think they were heavy crannequin or windless though, probably an easier goat's foot or something?  Not sure...
"It is how we choose what we do, and how we approach it, that determines whether the sum of our days adds up to a formless blur, or to something resembling a work of art."
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Offline bowman123

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2019, 12:26:08 pm »
most European crossbows are made of wood?, that makes so much more sense!! I was wondering, although long wide and cumbersome to use normal bows as a crossbow prod, it would be expensive to just back every prod out there with horn and sinew unless you are in China where most single shot crossbows were composite.
I would imagine those wooden prods be similar in powestroke compared to handbows maybe slightly lower. The trigger mechanism still works for longer crossbows just need to ajust the trigger stick a bit
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 12:30:32 pm by bowman123 »

Offline WhistlingBadger

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2019, 12:49:41 pm »
Going back to your original question: I think it's simply the idea of the common soldier, armed with his home-made longbow (the same one he [illegally] uses to put deer on the table for his impoverished but beautiful family), stands up to the charge of the arrogant, armored French knights and overcomes through strength of will and the power of the bow.  It's a powerful image, so powerful that people sometimes blow it out of proportion and make it into something it wasn't. 

The sniping of enemies with a crossbow from the safety of an arrow slit just doesn't carry the same emotional weight, especially for archers (and Englishmen).

I guess we shouldn't judge too harshly.  We hunters know a thing or two about how good story-telling can trump what actually happened... ::)
Thomas
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Offline jeffhalfrack

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Re: why are histories so skewed?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2019, 07:47:57 pm »
Hey 85 ,,,my dad was from Cripple Creek ,,down your way small world , good conversation guys JeffW