Author Topic: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ... Update!  (Read 1559 times)

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Offline Del the cat

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Del Has a Bit of a Moan ... Update!
« on: July 06, 2019, 07:14:12 am »
My mate JT has gone off to the Mary Rose shoot with 3 bows for the flight, two self Yew for the real heavy war arrows and an Ash backed Yew for the flight arrows which I've made specially.

The guy running the show insisted that all draw weights are measured at 28" draw  :o ::) >:( ... dunno why 'cos there are no poundage or draw length limits. ::)
The Ash back had only been to 26" (just checked my blog... it had been to 90# @27") on the tiller and prob about 28" drawn live.
Anyhow... they winched it back slowly on some awful makeshift rig and it exploded... :o >:(
I'm not best pleased as IMO it's ok if I blow it up, or my brave and trusty (foolhardy ;) )test pilot JT blows it up.... but for some bloke to winch it back slowly and blow it up is just out of order.

Now the thing that really galls me is that this bloke who runs the show and his wife had asked me to make them bows, which I have done free of charge, as they contribute a lot to longbow and warbow archery.
They are lucky that I'm a man of my word, else I'd be keeping their bows.

Anyhow... sorry to sound off about this, but I knew you guys would understand and maybe even have some wise words of wisdom.
or at least you'd have a laugh!

BUT! In the true spirit of a bowyer, I will try and learn and I'm thinking, maybe make the Ash backing thicker on the next.... 'cos we all know there is always a next  ;D
Del

PS... Fingers crossed he may still win with the other bows  :)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 02:47:49 am by Del the cat »
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Offline sleek

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2019, 09:16:00 am »
I would have told them that their lack of discretion is not worth the price of a broken bow. Sorry that happened, just reading that for my own blood pressure up. I hate it when arrogant folks can't think past their own ability to be wrong.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

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Offline Hawkdancer

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2019, 11:29:21 am »
Sounds like the chap is writing his own rules!  I would be rather highly upset myself!  Unfortunately, arrogance and stupidity are not grounds for committing capital actions.  Some folks are "blessed" with an abundance of both.  Best of shooting to JT in the rest of the meet!
Hawkdancer
Life is far too serious to be taken that way!
Jerry

Offline Aaron H

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2019, 02:26:08 pm »
Maybe if he was shooting 28" long arrows, then they should require it to be weighed at a 28" draw.  If he was shooting 26" long arrows, then there should be no reason that they would be required to draw to 28".
Do you think it was because they pulled it back too far, or the fact that they pulled it very slowly and held too long?
Sorry to hear this Del.  I hope he shoots well with the other two.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 05:48:42 pm by Aaron H »

Offline avcase

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2019, 05:03:41 pm »
That is awful. Regardless, I am glad you shared it so some good can come from it.  I will remember to review these procedures when we set up the weigh-machine at our upcoming flight event.  We will make sure to do some dry-runs before weighing any wood bows that cannot tolerate being held at full draw for extended periods.

There are a lot of details to consider when officiating at a shoot, and it can be easy to overlook something with disastrous consequences.

Alan

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2019, 12:31:33 am »
Update... he won the flight round with the second string bow "Smooth-Hound", didn't fare so well with the heavier war arrows tho.

I've composed a very "British" ::) E-mail to the organiser, which I thought I'd share (with name and organisation deleted) to see if you feel it is reasonable, or at least funny ;D. (I realise that measuring draw length to back isn't "correct" for formal flight shooting with normal ::) organisations)

Dear *****,
I was somewhat concerned to hear of the breakage of one of my bows on the test rig at the Mary Rose shoot, and wondered if I could offer some ideas which may avoid the embarrassment of it happening again?

First I’d like to point out that in your **** definitions of a longbow there is no mention of a minimum draw length and also the shortest full length arrow recovered from the Mary Rose arrow is just 26.26” long.

In measuring the draw weight there are several things to consider.
1. The bow needs to be supported against a slightly curved, lightly padded surface with well rounded edges. This is essential for English Longbows which flex through the grip and will pivot slightly as the bow is drawn.
It is also especially important for Yew bows as the wood is comparatively soft.

2. Draw length for (ELB) should be measured from the back of the bow, not the belly.

3. The bowyer's draw length should be respected and it is reasonable precaution to weigh at 1” below that length to allow for the hold time whilst poundage is read. The hold time can be seriously detrimental to a flight bow.
It is simple enough to normalise all weights to a common draw length.
E.G. To normalise 90 pounds at 26” to say 28”, just divide 90 by 26 and multiply by 28. Whilst this is not exact, it is well within the experimental error and hysteresis of a wooden bow.
So 90 @26 interpolates to 97 at 28” (rounded to the nearest whole number)

The bow which exploded had been taken to 90# @ 27" on the tiller to maintain its full freshness for the shoot and although the arrows to be shot were indeed longer than 28”, I feel the risk of failure was for me as the bowyer and John as the archer. It shouldn’t have fallen on your shoulders.

I trust these comments will be received in the spirit they are offered.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 03:09:21 am by Del the cat »
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Offline Hawkdancer

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2019, 10:40:38 am »
Sounds rather polite to me!  But I have been known to be somewhat direct on occasion!
Hawkdancer
Life is far too serious to be taken that way!
Jerry

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2019, 11:04:12 am »
Sounds rather polite to me!  But I have been known to be somewhat direct on occasion!
Hawkdancer
... ah, but you have to read between the lines...
"I trust these comments will be received in the spirit they are offered"
The spirit in which they are offered is, in fact one of huge annoyance and contempt for his stupidity... dunno if he'll get that tho'  ::)
Del
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Offline sleek

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2019, 11:17:56 am »
Sounds rather polite to me!  But I have been known to be somewhat direct on occasion!
Hawkdancer
... ah, but you have to read between the lines...
"I trust these comments will be received in the spirit they are offered"
The spirit in which they are offered is, in fact one of huge annoyance and contempt for his stupidity... dunno if he'll get that tho'  ::)
Del

Such eloquence, your exlemplary use of such hubris toward willful arrogance, in your vernacular leaves nothing to be desired. Heres hoping his pompous ass is proportionate to his brain, and it gets it.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2019, 11:33:57 am »
@ Sleek
Nice <reaches for dictionary to double check exactly what hubris means>  ;D
Del
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Offline meanewood

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2019, 04:14:34 pm »
If this were a plane crash, it would be classed as a combination of procedural and pilot error!

Rule no 1
Never draw a bow beyond its draw length.

Rule no 2
Don't hold the bow at full draw for more than 1-2 seconds

Offline Hawkdancer

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2019, 09:50:16 pm »
That's the direct part!  I've had to deal with my share of pompous asses in my day!  Fortunately, none of them cost me a broken bow - them my actions may have been direct! Both of us would have had to go to the hospital!  Him to get my foot out of his arse!  Me because my foot was buried in his arse!  I do think every one at the shoot will be aware of his actions!
Hawkdancer
Life is far too serious to be taken that way!
Jerry

Offline leonwood

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ...
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2019, 04:18:20 am »
That's quite the story Del! Sorry to hear the organisers of the event did not know how to handle real flight bows. But congrats on the win with the other bow! I think your reply to them is rather polite and I hope they take action on the next shoot. (although I have a feeling this is not going to help change this any time soon. Those "historical correct" kinda people are usually crazy stubborn)

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ... Update!
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2019, 02:57:30 am »
I had a somewhat apologetic response which also cleared up some of the reasons for the explosion.  :)
The main point is they were measuring to the belly of the bow...
Well, yes this may be correct for flight bows and flight arrows in specific weight categories, BUT this is unlimited, and the conventional way to measure draw length of an ELB, Warbow or, I'd venture to suggest any wooden bow, is to the back of the bow.
In fact modern IMO standards are to the belly at the throat of the grip but they add 1.75" to that, which would put you the back on a wooden bow.

So the bow had been drawn to 27" on the tiller (measured to the back) but they drew it to 28" measured to the belly, which is about 29.5" to the back... no wonder it blew!

I'm not being dogmatic about what is "correct"... it's the misunderstanding and confusion that is the problem.
Hopefully the matter will be resolved, and some improvements will be made to the test rig and specification.

Del
 
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Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Del Has a Bit of a Moan ... Update!
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2019, 02:20:56 am »
Why are they weighing unlimited class bows ? Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!