Author Topic: Split oak for medieval english arrows  (Read 3173 times)

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Offline Bootthrower

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Split oak for medieval english arrows
« on: July 28, 2019, 04:29:24 pm »
I just recently came across some pieces of an oak trunk. Some segments are very straight, so I thought I might try to split some arrow shafts from them.
Does oak make for a good wood when making replicas of medieval english arrows? I know Ascham mentions oak as a wood for shafts in Toxophilus, but do we have any actually examples or finds of oak shafts from the period (from The Mary Rose for example)?

Offline Ringeck85

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2019, 11:49:32 am »
I know that oak will work as long as it's straight, and will make a nice, heavy arrow.  I've made arrows from regular American red oak, they're heavy and too stiff for my draw weight, but they do shoot fine with adjustments on my part.

Quote
Most of the arrows were made from black poplar, with others made from beech, ash or hazel.
https://leatherworkingreverendsmusings.wordpress.com/research/arrows/mary-rose/

(note: I have no idea if this is a good source or not, if it's bogus please let me know)

Another from this site, where the arrow shafts are made with aspen:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=57235.0

I know that birch is a great arrow wood shaft material too!

Also a nifty short article on the verdegris:
http://www.theenglishwarbowsociety.com/TudorVerdegris2016.html

There are probably more exhaustive lists out there of what arrow woods are used!  But I hope this helps for starters and others who know more than me can chime in!
"It is how we choose what we do, and how we approach it, that determines whether the sum of our days adds up to a formless blur, or to something resembling a work of art."
-Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi

(Ren', in Wytheville, VA)

Offline Bootthrower

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2019, 02:39:10 pm »
Thanks for the help! I plan on making some Mary Rose replicas and have gotten most of the materials down, but I had a hard time getting the wood for shafts. I might get an aspen from my landlord, which I know is authentic, but what I had for now was oak, which I was quite unsure if it actually would be authentic. Glad to hear it makes for a good arrow though! I guess that makes it more likely that oak actually would have been used in those days!

Offline Ringeck85

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2019, 03:35:45 pm »
Ash was more commonly used, but hey if you got straight oak, make it with oak!  The arrows I've made so far are just cheapo oak or poplar dowels (really tuliptree or "yellow poplar," which are related to magnolias) from Lowes/Home Depot.

Oak will probably be just fine for short range shooting (and it's gonna pack a punch with a good forged arrowhead on there!), but a lighter aspen or poplar arrow shaft is going to shoot a farther distance if you're going for the longer range stuff.

I would say context behind arrow design matters somewhat: If designed for close range shooting (for targets or for hunting; and I realize that I am saying this "In General" so anyone feel free to qualify what I say) your arrow shafts are Probaby going to be best made from a tougher, heavier wood for greater durability and greater mass impact (on this side of the pond: things like hickory, oak, ash, cane with hardwood foreshafts, etc.)  If designed for long range (example: on the other extreme from a warbow arrow I'd put something like a Turkish flight bow arrow which are light and so short they need a bow shield thingie--what are those called?--to not overdraw the arrow!), I'd go with lighter arrow shaft materials and design, like cane/bamboo, poplar (I think??) etc. etc.
"It is how we choose what we do, and how we approach it, that determines whether the sum of our days adds up to a formless blur, or to something resembling a work of art."
-Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi

(Ren', in Wytheville, VA)

Offline Mafort

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2019, 09:48:30 pm »
I have an 85lb English longbow that I love shooting and hunting with. I’ve made arrows from oak, ash, some red elm ones too which were light but I got curious, birch and hickory. Oak is heavy! So I barrel taper them to get the correct weight without messing up the spine. Some nice 175 grain broadheads and a good fletching and the deer will never notice it got whacked with a miniature spear. My hunting arrows are about 700-750 grains total. I’ve got a set of white oak ones that are 925 grain but unless a wooly mammoth comes running along I’m gunna use those for some other activities.
Point being is you can taper your shafts to the weight you desire without messing up the spine too much. Just make sure they’re spines really close together and check your arrow weight often

Offline Strelets

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2019, 04:39:04 am »
Bootthrower, if you want to be really authentic then you will need European oak (Quercus robur) not American white or red oak (Quercus alba and Quercus rubra). Q. robur and Q. alba have similar physical properties, but Q. robur is more golden in colour.

Offline Bootthrower

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2019, 02:09:19 pm »
Oh it is the european stuff! I live in Sweden (should have said so in the original post)

Offline WillS

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2019, 01:10:18 pm »
Oak was just about the only wood NOT used for the Mary Rose arrows.  The most common was black poplar (Populus nigra) followed by birch.  Ash was extremely scarce too, only a handful of shafts amongst the 3000 ish being identified as ash.  Ascham mentioned it being superior, but that was for a specific purpose.

Oak is crazy heavy, but if you make "correct" arrows it works ok.  When I say correct I mean with a true bobtail taper, not the modern equivalent which is a straight taper from head to nock.  The original ones have a very short heavily tapered section behind the head which is full diameter (1/2") down to around 11mm or 10mm, and then a gradual taper to a nock of around 7.5mm to 8.5mm.

This is quite different to the massive "medieval war arrow" that people like showing off these days, which fly like a small house unless you're shooting something around 170lb, if you use historically correct timber.

As an aside, I keep being reminded just how out of date my article on the verdigris compound is - I must rewrite it with current research results!

Offline Hawkdancer

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2019, 11:29:30 pm »
Oak was just about the only wood NOT used for the Mary Rose arrows.  The most common was black poplar (Populus nigra) followed by birch.  Ash was extremely scarce too, only a handful of shafts amongst the 3000 ish being identified as ash.  Ascham mentioned it being superior, but that was for a specific purpose.

Oak is crazy heavy, but if you make "correct" arrows it works ok.  When I say correct I mean with a true bobtail taper, not the modern equivalent which is a straight taper from head to nock.  The original ones have a very short heavily tapered section behind the head which is full diameter (1/2") down to around 11mm or 10mm, and then a gradual taper to a nock of around 7.5mm to 8.5mm.

This is quite different to the massive "medieval war arrow" that people like showing off these days, which fly like a small house unless you're shooting something around 170lb, if you use historically correct timber.

As an aside, I keep being reminded just how out of date my article on the verdigris compound is - I must rewrite it with current research results!

Will, by all means update and maybe even post the original!  I haven't had a chance to make any but I do have some copper laying around!
Hawkdancer
Life is far too serious to be taken that way!
Jerry

Offline Bootthrower

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 04:51:53 am »
Interesting to hear that what Ascham mentioned and even preferred was barely used on the Mary Rose.
I'll see if I can make a few shafts out of this log, but other than that I'll have my fingers crossed I get that aspen.

Your verdigris article is actually what made me want to try making my own arrows. It would be great to read an updated version if you've come to newer conclusions!

Offline WillS

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 03:25:44 pm »
The compound mixture has changed quite dramatically actually, in fact the newest iteration has no pine resin or pine gum turpentine whatsoever, just beeswax, hard fat (kidney fat from lambs is the best) and the copper.  This gives a result virtually identical to the original arrows - I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I can lay my replicas alongside the originals and make absolutely sure that they match up, and the compound I was making at the time of the article just wasn't quite close enough.

The process is the same, as is the method of application but the ingredients weren't quite there. 

Regarding ash, it was almost certainly used a plate-penetration arrow.  Heavy, dense and difficult to break it makes the ideal arrowshaft when armed with a head designed for maximum impact damage.  However, aspen is far better suited for longer range arrows and particularly well suited for arrows that will be stored in chests on a ship as it's highly rot-resistant.  Ash is very hygrophobic so is pretty useless when it gets wet or is kept in damp conditions. This is one of the reasons the Mary Rose assemblage should potentially be seen as quite a different set of equipment to the more well-known period of the military bow such as the 100 years war.  The danger we can get into today is assuming that once the bow and arrow had been figured out, it stayed that way until gunpowder but it was evolving and changing in response to all sorts of reasons - we only have equipment that was used and stored in a naval capacity and it would be somewhat naive to assume that bows and arrows were the same when used on land in pitched battles!

Offline Bootthrower

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2019, 06:18:57 pm »
Looks like I need to get my hand on some fat next then! I guess it depends a bit on the materials themselves since they're natural, but roughly what ratio of fat to wax is in the glue? 50/50, or does it usually lean more to one or the other?

I hadn't thought about this being a naval find, so the materials used on land or in other periods might have been different, but it does indeed make perfect sense now that you mention it.
When you say ash doesn't handle water well, what exactly happens to it? Is it just more susceptible to rot, or does it make the arrow break or crack?

I don't know if you split your shafts yourself, but do you have any tips on how to get the most out of a log, or to get a better success rate for a beginner?
I've split 2 smaller arrow length logs thus far, but I don't  know if there's a better way to do it before I go at the larger logs or if I get that aspen. I think the larger logs look straighter, but they also have a few knots, so maybe there won't be many straight shafts in them. Anyhow, the way I split the other day was by splitting the maybe 7" diameter logs radially into eighths, then removing the excess of the eighths with an axe until I had a very rough square of about 12mm. I feel like I should have left a bit more meat on them so I could plane them down to square instead, so they were more even in thickness throughout their length. I guess my question is at what size blank do you move on to a plane and do you make it square with a plane or some other tool? Also, on a larger log, do you get more shafts by splitting tangentially instead of radially?

Sorry if the last wood splitting questions aren't in your area of expertise or if my writing is a bit messy!

Offline WillS

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2019, 01:39:03 am »
It's the same as with bows - when ash gets damp it gets soggy and loses stiffness. 

The ratio isn't set really, as natural ingredients always change.  I started with 50/50 but I find I'm always tweaking it to suit the tallow.

The way you split your shaft timber is how I've always done it, but I leave the square blanks around 15mm before planing, or 12mm for a 3/8" shaft.

Offline Bootthrower

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Re: Split oak for medieval english arrows
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2019, 04:13:53 am »
Great! Thanks a lot for all the helpful tips. I really appreciate it.