Author Topic: deflex and reflex theory  (Read 37958 times)

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Offline Halfbow

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2019, 10:12:41 pm »
Here is a comment I made on a thread a while back that took a similar direction.

Thought experiment: Applying arrow paradox to bow limbs on release. The most motivated part of a bows limb will move first and may move faster than the limbs tips. This loads the other parts of the limbs with energy until all energy is spread equally across the limb. Under slow motion, it probably looks like a wave. If the timing of this wave could be done correctly, the tips would be be at tje crest right when brace heightis hit, snapping the last of the energy into the arrow.

Yeah that sounds very similar to what I had in mind. Time both limbs right and the wave is canceled the moment the bow hits brace, the energy gone in to the arrow. Mistime it and it becomes a vibration that reverberates through the bow for awhile. ...I have no real idea about this, just spilling thoughts.

If someone tillers amn r/d bow to look like a d bow when braced they loose all the benefits.

What does d bow mean exactly? Do you mean a bow with a deflexed handle? Or like, a straight handle with deflexed limbs? Or maybe just a bow that looks like a letter D when braced?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 10:21:52 pm by Halfbow »

Offline sleek

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2019, 11:05:18 pm »
Letter D when braced.
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Offline sleek

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2019, 11:13:19 pm »
  Allen, they do store more energy. And they tend to be more efficient as long as they remain stiff in the outer limb. If someone tillers amn r/d bow to look like a d bow when braced they loose all the benefits.

The shorter the bending section... aka the longer your stiff section on the tips is, the less energy will be wasted in setting up a wave. Still gonna be one, just a lower amplitude, meaning less energy into the wave.

I admit here, I'm into pure theory on this. Just Looking at it as wave propagation, frequency and volume.  The longer stiff leave should act as a damper to stop the limb from setting up a wave as easily making more energy available to the arrow.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

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Offline Halfbow

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2019, 11:27:59 pm »
Ah ok I'm going to have to disagree with you then, Badger. If someone tillers a deflex-handled bow to look like a D at brace, they won't lose all the benefits. Don't get me wrong, it probably won't be a great bow. They do lose all the benefits of the recurves. But they maintain the benefits of a deflexed handle. There's more benefit to a deflexed handle than simply making it easier to get more recurve/stiffer outer limbs. (Though those things are important)

Offline sleek

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2019, 12:24:54 am »
Ah ok I'm going to have to disagree with you then, Badger. If someone tillers a deflex-handled bow to look like a D at brace, they won't lose all the benefits. Don't get me wrong, it probably won't be a great bow. They do lose all the benefits of the recurves. But they maintain the benefits of a deflexed handle. There's more benefit to a deflexed handle than simply making it easier to get more recurve/stiffer outer limbs. (Though those things are important)

There are several good things about a pure deflex bow. Efficiency being the best. However, it looses energy storage. A deflex bow is just like a car engine with lower compression ratio. It doesnt require much power to deliver its work. It's a solid reliable, under stressed bow that shoots a heavy arrow quite well. It also is less likely to take set as it bends less.

Now consider this engine with low power, and you wanna boost its performance. Enter the turbo charger. Reflex is like the turbo,  perhaps even with a little lag as the tips must catch up to the rest of the limb once released. You take that low compression and shove air down its throat causing it to compress more. Now it has high efficiency AND its power goes up because its storing more energy.  The tip/string angle changes providing better leverage, the bend radius increases as you get to the mid limb, and string tension at brace increases.

So, tillering a RD bow to look in profile at FD as a D bow  you loose all the benefits of the reflex and are left with a deflexed bow that's like a turbo charged engine with the waist gate stuck open.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

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Offline Selfbowman

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2019, 08:15:14 am »
Ok Alan if you can’t measure it how do you know this ? Cause the computer said so. You know I value your knowledge or I would not call you all the time asking for it! If the reflex loads earlier I’m thinking you don’t loose efficiency in the last bit of string travel. This is why I ask about fd curve telling us if the design is better or not. Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline Halfbow

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2019, 08:42:32 am »
There are several good things about a pure deflex bow. Efficiency being the best. However, it looses energy storage. A deflex bow is just like a car engine with lower compression ratio. It doesnt require much power to deliver its work. It's a solid reliable, under stressed bow that shoots a heavy arrow quite well. It also is less likely to take set as it bends less.

Now consider this engine with low power, and you wanna boost its performance. Enter the turbo charger. Reflex is like the turbo,  perhaps even with a little lag as the tips must catch up to the rest of the limb once released. You take that low compression and shove air down its throat causing it to compress more. Now it has high efficiency AND its power goes up because its storing more energy.  The tip/string angle changes providing better leverage, the bend radius increases as you get to the mid limb, and string tension at brace increases.

So, tillering a RD bow to look in profile at FD as a D bow  you loose all the benefits of the reflex and are left with a deflexed bow that's like a turbo charged engine with the waist gate stuck open.

I mostly agree with you, but you're skipping over what I've been trying to say. Reflex is beneficial for non-deflexed bows too. It is not special to the D/R design. This turbo charger can be effective on many engines. When D/R bows hold their own against fully reflexed bows (even with modern materials with no set, and even when the fully reflexed bows have stiff outer limbs too) you can't explain the D/R bow's excellence by just pointing at the reflexed parts. That's racing two cars with turbo chargers, and saying one won because it had a turbo charger. Deflexed handles offer performance advantages of their own. Those advantages are there whether the reflex is or not.

Sidenote: D/R designs aren't under stressed unless they're overbuilt. Bending a thick piece of wood a little bit stresses the wood just as much as bending a thin piece of wood a lot. You can damage the wood either way. D/R bows aren't inherently less stressed, they're just easier to overbuild without looking overbuilt. (This is at full draw. They are indeed less stressed at brace)

My drawing on page 2 is a D shaped bow with a deflexed handle. Those drawings are carefully drawn with the necessary measurements. I didn't just make it up and draw things where I wanted them to be. I think the differences in lever length and the string angle are important. This helps with energy storage. They're better than a straight bow's too. The advantage may not be enough to make up for the lack of string tension, but they're still there and worth keeping in mind.

It's also worth keeping in mind here that a braced bow's profile doesn't tell you much about its unbraced profile. You could unstring a deflex handled D bow to find its limbs curl up like a Korean horn bow once free. It being a deflexed handled D bow doesn't actually tell you that it has low string tension, or that its limbs aren't reflexed when unbraced. I'd actually love to see more deflex handled horn bows with extreme reflex in the limbs. I suspect a lot of potential lies there.

There seems to be a lack of interest in what I'm saying here, but I don't think it's smoke. I'm open to being wrong, so if my logic is flawed I'd love for someone to point out why. No one who disagrees has really engaged with me yet.

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2019, 11:55:39 am »
Halfbow I can only go with my personal experience. The D-R bows just did not work for me but maybe built differently they are better. I don’t design with numbers. I try to visualize stress on the mass and what that might create as far as energy applied to the arrow. Then I build bows. I have had success with the reflexed pyramid design . That’s why I continue to try to remove any set cause the one that took very little is a rocket launcher. Arrows are my top priority as of date.that been said I would like to have another rocket launcher on hand. Just trying to repeat the process. I said some years back pick a wood that suits your climate and is readily available build the same design until you can’t get anymore out of it then try another design. Is any of this important in killing a whitetail ? No!!! My short time in flight shooting has made me think in a different direction . We can definitely learn from math in the design. You just need to know how to do it. Oh well. ;D. Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline Badger

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2019, 12:07:16 pm »
Ah ok I'm going to have to disagree with you then, Badger. If someone tillers a deflex-handled bow to look like a D at brace, they won't lose all the benefits. Don't get me wrong, it probably won't be a great bow. They do lose all the benefits of the recurves. But they maintain the benefits of a deflexed handle. There's more benefit to a deflexed handle than simply making it easier to get more recurve/stiffer outer limbs. (Though those things are important)

There are several good things about a pure deflex bow. Efficiency being the best. However, it looses energy storage. A deflex bow is just like a car engine with lower compression ratio. It doesnt require much power to deliver its work. It's a solid reliable, under stressed bow that shoots a heavy arrow quite well. It also is less likely to take set as it bends less.

  Your right you don't loose all the benefits but it doesn't shoot as well as a bow that maintains the r'd profile at brace.


Now consider this engine with low power, and you wanna boost its performance. Enter the turbo charger. Reflex is like the turbo,  perhaps even with a little lag as the tips must catch up to the rest of the limb once released. You take that low compression and shove air down its throat causing it to compress more. Now it has high efficiency AND its power goes up because its storing more energy.  The tip/string angle changes providing better leverage, the bend radius increases as you get to the mid limb, and string tension at brace increases.

So, tillering a RD bow to look in profile at FD as a D bow  you loose all the benefits of the reflex and are left with a deflexed bow that's like a turbo charged engine with the waist gate stuck open.

Offline sleek

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2019, 01:18:58 pm »
There are several good things about a pure deflex bow. Efficiency being the best. However, it looses energy storage. A deflex bow is just like a car engine with lower compression ratio. It doesnt require much power to deliver its work. It's a solid reliable, under stressed bow that shoots a heavy arrow quite well. It also is less likely to take set as it bends less.

Now consider this engine with low power, and you wanna boost its performance. Enter the turbo charger. Reflex is like the turbo,  perhaps even with a little lag as the tips must catch up to the rest of the limb once released. You take that low compression and shove air down its throat causing it to compress more. Now it has high efficiency AND its power goes up because its storing more energy.  The tip/string angle changes providing better leverage, the bend radius increases as you get to the mid limb, and string tension at brace increases.

So, tillering a RD bow to look in profile at FD as a D bow  you loose all the benefits of the reflex and are left with a deflexed bow that's like a turbo charged engine with the waist gate stuck open.

I mostly agree with you, but you're skipping over what I've been trying to say. Reflex is beneficial for non-deflexed bows too. It is not special to the D/R design. This turbo charger can be effective on many engines. When D/R bows hold their own against fully reflexed bows (even with modern materials with no set, and even when the fully reflexed bows have stiff outer limbs too) you can't explain the D/R bow's excellence by just pointing at the reflexed parts. That's racing two cars with turbo chargers, and saying one won because it had a turbo charger. Deflexed handles offer performance advantages of their own. Those advantages are there whether the reflex is or not.

Sidenote: D/R designs aren't under stressed unless they're overbuilt. Bending a thick piece of wood a little bit stresses the wood just as much as bending a thin piece of wood a lot. You can damage the wood either way. D/R bows aren't inherently less stressed, they're just easier to overbuild without looking overbuilt. (This is at full draw. They are indeed less stressed at brace)

My drawing on page 2 is a D shaped bow with a deflexed handle. Those drawings are carefully drawn with the necessary measurements. I didn't just make it up and draw things where I wanted them to be. I think the differences in lever length and the string angle are important. This helps with energy storage. They're better than a straight bow's too. The advantage may not be enough to make up for the lack of string tension, but they're still there and worth keeping in mind.

It's also worth keeping in mind here that a braced bow's profile doesn't tell you much about its unbraced profile. You could unstring a deflex handled D bow to find its limbs curl up like a Korean horn bow once free. It being a deflexed handled D bow doesn't actually tell you that it has low string tension, or that its limbs aren't reflexed when unbraced. I'd actually love to see more deflex handled horn bows with extreme reflex in the limbs. I suspect a lot of potential lies there.

There seems to be a lack of interest in what I'm saying here, but I don't think it's smoke. I'm open to being wrong, so if my logic is flawed I'd love for someone to point out why. No one who disagrees has really engaged with me yet.

I'm very interested in this topic and your points you are making. Dont think that.

I'd like to say your point  has been proven by Arvin with his bows. He build and breaks records with his long reflexed only bows. My thought and this isn't proven by me yet but by golly I'm working on it, is that a RD bow can shoot just as well as a reflexed bow, and be shorter. At a certain length deflex doesnt help, and pure reflex is needed. As you go shorter, it's my belief that deflex is needed to keep pace and hold its own , though I dont believe it will out perform a longer reflexed bow. Deflex shines on short bows. I just haven't found the magic number yet.

I am planning on soon starting a long bow and reflexing it until performance gains stop, then deflex it until the improve, then shorten it, reflex it more, then deflex more... rinse and repeat, taking careful notes, and being careful to not allow any set. One I find the specific combination of reflex/deflex/and bow length, I will probably have a bow that holds up to any longer reflexed only bow. After that, arrow performance will be the only thing slowing the bow down.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Stick Bender

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2019, 01:28:14 pm »
Using the car anology I personally think the string angle is the equivelent to the tires you still have to get the power to the road...lol, I don't build bows by numbers ether, theory is theory tell you build the bows to test ,but I built this 3D target bow a while back ,I'm using it as a example in design theory, I built several of the same design and draw weight with the difference being stiffer tips via tip wedges  that allowed the tips to not bend and hold there curve creating a better string angle at FD but the performance difference was significant , so the only thing that changed was the string angle I wish I had better pics other then construction pics, I also did test with levered wood bows by angling the lever with out effecting draw weight and got performance not as significant gains as glass but still 3fps ,again nothing changed except string angle unless I'm missing some thing ?
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Offline DC

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2019, 02:13:52 pm »
You stiffened the tips. That moves the bendy part in which improves performance I believe and didn't Alan say that if you can stop the wavy stuff that improves performance.

Offline Badger

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2019, 02:18:33 pm »
You stiffened the tips. That moves the bendy part in which improves performance I believe and didn't Alan say that if you can stop the wavy stuff that improves performance.
Reducing the amount of working limb solves all kinds of design issues. Reduces the limb distortion as well as making the limbs on heavily reflexed bows more stable. The only thing it aggravates is the amount of set a bow might take

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2019, 02:21:35 pm »
Stick bender I bet that is a fast bow. I like that profile strung and unstrung . Probably has a smooth draw with little shock! Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline Stick Bender

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Re: deflex and reflex theory
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2019, 02:45:41 pm »
Yes it is I designed it as a 3d bow and it's user friendly other materials at play as well , ok maybe I'm using string angle as a barometer to performance but I have done the reverse of lengthening the lowers via shortened power/lam and increased the stack adding mass  to gain the same draw weight but good string angle for better performance ? And I really like the theory from Steve on limb frequency because when working with material that can take the stress it's amazing the gains with short bows at long draws & user friendliness I really suspect there is more then just one thing in this design that has no
canned answer to the so called perfect D/R bow but it's certainly the concert between limb length ,deflex,reflex, and the angles and curvature of those as well as many other things but the trick I think is finding the right recipe of those in any given material like I said theory is theory tell you build the bows but every time I change one thing and test it ,I have 5 other questions for the next build but the end result for me must have great string angle & maybe that indicates the right recipe or close to it was involve ,I'm currently building a take down riser so I can experiment quicker with the design, this is a great thread I have learned a lot here , the thing I like is we can share thoughts and ideas !
If you fear failure you will never Try !