Author Topic: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...  (Read 30044 times)

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Offline n2everythg

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2008, 07:13:18 pm »
I thought it was an excellent article. Throughly enjoyed it. and read the whole thing through a couple times.
Well written, I think your systematic approach to the "testing' was well thought out and complete as well.
N2
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Offline Pat B

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2008, 01:21:29 am »
When primitive man did this, he would track the animal until it either died or until he could get another arrow in it. He wasn't worrying about PITA or the ASPCA on his back plus he had the time to pursue his quarry. Today, we want a fast clean kill. 
  I appreciate what Billy has done here. I often wondered about these small points also. I have a bow that my wife bought me in New Mexico a few years ago. The bowyer(Vernon Brown) is Taos Pueblo Indian and this was his personal bow the year before. He gave her an arrow to go along with the bow and it had a very small point on it. It was his turkey hunting arrow and he preferred a small point because it would go between the feathers and a larger one might not.       Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2008, 02:35:50 am »
If I go bow hunting for turkey I will definatly use bird points!
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

Offline billy

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2008, 05:11:12 pm »
Rich,

Actually the reed arrow wasn't phragmites (I misidentified it).  It was actually a plant called Giant Reed (arundo donax) and is a europen reed that has been introduced.  But it is very, very similar to the numerous reed arrows I've seen made by many western tribes.  You can harvest reed at any time, as long as it is second or third year shoots. First year shoots are much too weak for arrows.  I'm actually working on an article for Primitive Archer about making your own primitive arrows, and in it I'll have close-up pictures of reed and other arrow materials.


To Justin,

     I also read your post about the mathematics and amount of tissue damage done by a larger point vs. a smaller one.  I definitely agree with you on that, a smaller point will not damage as much tissue as a wider point.  But I also believe that the old guys weren't shooting 60 or 70 pound bows.  Instead, they were shooting 35 to 45  and at the most 50 pounds (there were exceptions, of course).  I think they were more concerned with accuracy, not raw power.  If they were more accurate with a lighter poundage bow, then I think they adapted their arrows to that.  Their bows were lighter, their arrows were smaller (and therefore lighter) and lacked the intertia of a heavier arrow.  I definitely agree that you should shoot the widest point that will give you sufficient penetration. 
      Another thing I noticed with the bird point test was that only one of the seven arrows that I shot directly hit a rib on entry (that I could tell).  The smaller points seemed more likely to slip between the ribs , missing what is the greatest impediment to penetration: bone.
   When I go hunting I will usually come home empty handed.  It isn't because my bow lacked enough power, but because I missed my target.  If I were more accurate, I would be much more successful in making kills.  It's accuracy that brings home the bacon, at least in my opinion. 
Marietta, Georgia

Offline Traxx

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2008, 06:25:09 pm »
Billy,
I havent had the oportunity to read the article as of yet,but have enjoyed your articles in the past,and expect i will enjoy this one as well.Based on feedback from this thread,as well as a thread on another site,i assume ,you had favorable results.This is no surprise to me,as it just verifies what a vast amount of early Native hunters,had known,for some time.Ishi,used a 40 lb bow,with a 25" draw,and What would be considered Bird Points.I know this contradicts what most have seen of Ishis points,that he Knapped while at the university.I have personally seen and held points made by Ishi,that he knapped pre civilization,and they are indeed smaller than anything i have seen Post civilization.The fact that they were used by Ishi,as well as countless other early Native hunters,tells me of their merit.I trust in these hunters judgement,as they hunted for a liveing.
As for the theories,that NDN people werent as concerned about Quick clean Kills,i have my doubts.True,they didnt have the ethics police or ARA's to contend with,as we do now,But,i feel they may have had other reasons for wanting a quick clean kill,as possible,as we do today.Native people,didnt have the luxuries that we do today.They wounded and lost game,they didnt eat.No trips to the grocery store for them,if game wasnt procured.I believe that it has been agreed upon by most on these sites,that early Primitive Humans,took the least physical path when possible,to save energy time and materials.Tracking wounded animals for lengthy periods would use up valuable energy as well as possible loss of time and hard earned and worked arrow material.Lets also consider,the issue of predators,finding and stealing said game,before the hunter.There were generally more numbers of predators in those days.In Ishis time alone,their were still Grizzly in California.Also,hunting,was generally not carried out as we do today.It was usually a combined Tribal effort,at certain times.This was to Minimize pressure on Game and to procure enough game for all in the band.To have individuals constantly out scouring for individuall game,would put tremendous pressure on game causeing game movement,and consequently more tribal movement.More time energy and resources used.When they did hunt,they did it in as a efficient manner as possible,to get what they needed when they needed it.To do so,I believe they would have used as efficient methods and materials as they could.If folks could see the old Deer and Pronghorn Runs of the early people,you could see how efficient and well thougfht out their methods were.It is just Awesome to me.

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2008, 06:42:11 pm »
Billy, you don't have to convince me that accuracy is what kills. I have always said people should use the bow they are the most accurate with, not the one considered a "better draw weight."  I just think a guy can improve his odds. In not sure what the use of these narrow points was.  I suspect they used them mostly on small game because small game is more plentiful.  Even the larger predators like mountain lion eat a lot of rabbit.  ;)

Traxx, good points, but you forgot one.  They spent a lot of time making equipment to start treating it as disposable like we do today.  Why keep shooting arrows when one will do the job.  Save the rest for tomarrows lunch.  Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline Traxx

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2008, 07:40:30 pm »
Justin,
I thought that i implied that point,in my post,but may have failed.LOL
Regardless,thanxx for postin n makeing it obvious.Many times ,in my rambleings,i leave things in question,or flat out forget.Especially when Ishi is mentioned.I get all giddy n spazz out sometimes.LOL

Offline shamus

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2008, 09:15:59 am »
I liked the article. The meat spoiled but it was a worthy sacrifice for science. Too much anecdotal evidence out there, and it's nice to see someone actually putting things to the test.

I started a thread about it here: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,7065.0.html

DBernier

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2008, 09:57:07 pm »
I have some "bird points" in my collection. One in particular is mounted on a fore shaft and inserted into the arrow shaft. My Father picked it up for me in the late 40's in Wilmington NC at an antique shop on his way home to Ct. I will bring it to Hickory for anyone interested in it. Will post photos here tomorrow if anyone is interested in seeing photos of it.  BTW Billy, ex++++ article. Good job.

Dick Bernier

DBernier

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2008, 08:42:23 am »
Billy et all. Here is the footed shaft my Father picked up for me on the coast of NC. It is 32 1/2 inches long and the footing is 5 1/2 inches long sticking out of the shaft. The shaft is 5/16 in dia and I believe it is cane. An archaeologist said he did not think so and pointed to the feature of the hole. He said it looked like it was drilled out using a tapered stone  tool. There are remnants of the original sinew and the shaft was discolored where the fletching was tied on. I added the fletching years ago. It has a self nock wrapped with sinew. Overall it is a very nice artifact. I will bring it to Hickory this weekend if anyone is interested in seeing it. Maybe we can "nail down" the shaft material.

Dick

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Offline Pat B

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2008, 10:52:18 am »
Thats cool, Dick. Looking forward to checking it out in person this weekend.     Pat
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline David Long

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2008, 07:20:34 pm »
I imagine the ancient hunter sometimes had a hard time coming by good stone. It was in short supply under certain circumstances. Perhaps you mentioned this in your article, but why not use the resource economically as long as the smaller points work reasonably well?

Dave
NW Montana

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2008, 08:50:56 pm »
David, we find points this small even where there are abundant resources. Kennan found some while we were out at Glass Buttes, OR one huge source of obsidian and they were still using small points!
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

DBernier

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2008, 08:59:18 pm »
Well sad to say I brought the arrow and foreshaft you saw above in this thread to Hickory for some of the guys to see. A fellow picked it up from the table and snapped the tip off. It ended up in the tall grass and after looking several times over the weekend could not find it. I don't think it was on purpose but this is an object lesson for me. Guard your artifacts.

Dick Bernier

Offline David Long

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Re: Wanted "bird point" article feedback...
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2008, 06:10:10 pm »
Interesting D. Tiller. Thanks for adding that observation. Seems a little complicated to me though. We all know once you find a formula that works in an archery setup, we're inclined to keep in. If most living (hunting) was done far from a large stone source, perhaps even near one the economical habit of small points would be practiced. Whole lot easier to carry smaller than larger points too. Just pointing out that there are considerations in addition to ones directly related to lethality. I should shut up until I at least read the article though  :)
NW Montana