Author Topic: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?  (Read 15293 times)

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Offline D. Tiller

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2008, 05:32:07 pm »
Mark, how about pulling the backing and core into reflex while glueing the two together. Then heating the belly and  bending that to shape and finaly glueing them all together? I would think that would producs a bow with pre-stressed backing and core with a zero stressed belly. What do you think?
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

nick1346

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2008, 07:13:18 pm »
Hang on Mark you were there?  Now I hoped you would be did we meet? Userames are always confusing in the flesh as no one uses them!

For all those that weren't there the shoot was pretty special. Some bloody good shooting, good distances set and a very relawed atmosphere, even better than last year.

grantmac

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2008, 09:27:28 pm »
Mark, how about pulling the backing and core into reflex while glueing the two together. Then heating the belly and  bending that to shape and finaly glueing them all together? I would think that would producs a bow with pre-stressed backing and core with a zero stressed belly. What do you think?

I don't think that would work because the point is that the belly is under tension when the bow is resting and under virtually no stress when braced. I think that if you laminated the core and belly into what braced profile you wanted (and tillered it before glue-up), then pulled it into reflex you would end-up with a very low-stress design.
This gives me much to think on and I'm probably not a good enough boyer to properly execute any of it.
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              Grant

radius

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 10:50:09 pm »
i've been playing around alot with laminations the last couple months. ..  One thing I have recently started to do, is glue up trilams this way: 

First, the backing and the core together.  When that has cured, I shape a riser to the curve of the stave and glue it in.  When that has cured, I cut and sand in some fades, then glue a belly strip over that. 

I wonder, if you were to  glue the belly and core together, and then the backing to those like you have said in this post...would you omit the riser altogether?

grantmac

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2008, 01:32:41 am »
No riser on a warbow or elb, so it's a moot point.

radius

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2008, 01:44:16 am »
right, of course....

have you tried any douglas fir at all?  I wonder how it'd go...god knows we have enough of it...as a carpenter, I know it as a very dense wood, but often full of hard knots and huge pitch pockets..at the Finishing Store around Topaz (off Blanshard) they sell 3/4" thick vertical grain douglas fir.  might be worth a try...

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2008, 02:28:54 am »
I don't cut to shape until everything is glued up. What I was attempting is that the backing and core would be pre-stressed into tension backwards on a perry reflex form when glued together while the belly would be heat shaped regularly into a perry reflex but make sure none of it is cut to shape before doing this, its all rectangular in shape from top to bottom. Then glue the core to the belly. The backing and core then cut to shape after its dried. The core and the backing will be pre-stressed in tension while the belly would would not. This way as you pull back on the bow your increasing the tension stresses and shifting the sheer points more into the belly (?) wood. Or is it that you would be making the core work for you instead of being just neutral? I would think the belly wood would take more compresion then if its not being made to take any tension but a full load of compresion.

What do you all think?

I have a couple lam ELB's going right now that I make by just gluing on a backing strip of hick to a thick peice of hardwood. Then I just cut out the shape and round over the corners and I'm about done. Power tools sure would make this go faster!

David T
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

grantmac

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2008, 01:49:21 pm »
right, of course....

have you tried any douglas fir at all?  I wonder how it'd go...god knows we have enough of it...as a carpenter, I know it as a very dense wood, but often full of hard knots and huge pitch pockets..at the Finishing Store around Topaz (off Blanshard) they sell 3/4" thick vertical grain douglas fir.  might be worth a try...

I really want to try Fir. It seems like it would make a pretty awesome core to me. I've been playing with this Eastern Red Cedar lately, it's very nice but a real pain to find any without masssive knots. I'll be going back to Westwind to get another board in the next month I think. A local solution (fir) would be great.
        Cheers,
                Grant

radius

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2008, 05:21:56 pm »
i have a bunch of maple lams and yew lams...but when the maple runs out (i have way more yew than maple) i will pick up some clear d-fir and i will let you know...

Offline markinengland

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Re: What advantage is there in multiple laminations?
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2008, 04:32:43 am »
David,
Pre-stressing the backing works. I know a respected bowyer who glues two thin hickory lams into a circle and then pulls them down onto the belly. This induces relfex in the glued together bow, though I am not sure there is any advantage compaired to just glueing a thick backing onto a thick belly and pulling it into Perry Reflex to dry. Different method, same effect.
I think you would get a better performance pulling the belly into reflex rather than heating it. The whole idea is to induce reverse stress into the bow. Heating gives shape but not stress.
Imagine this wince inducing experiments. Glue together and pull a two or three lam bow into reverse full draw shape and let it set. When it comes out the form it will look like a reverse bow. If it were possible to pull this reverse bow on a long string to straight you would have something like full draw poundage, when the bow is straight. Because the bow was pulled into relfex the surfaces of the belly and back are at zero stress as they ae now back in their original positions, but we have full draw strength locked into the glue lines. Of course this is a silly example but it illustrates the point. I once had a skinny Ipe bow with hickory backing made with too much reflex of 5 or 7 inches or so. It was pulling 120lbs to get the tips three inches behind the handle!
This kind of Perry Reflex increases the power of the bow compared against mass whle actually decreasing the stress at belly and back that usually cause failure. Taken to extremes you can see that failure could now be moved to where the stress has gone, which is the glue line. Some light wood may tear apart if used as a core, but only experimentation will tell you where the limits are.
Oddly, Perry Reflex works best on thicker lams and very little on a bow made of many thin lams. This is why I question the point of many thin lams unless the thin lams are glued up to make thick ones before inducing Pery effects (but why bother if two simple lams works so well anyway?).
According to Dan Perry, the best possible effect is to pre shape, round etc the belly and pretiller it to partial draw a little over brace height. Now glue on a backing and pull into reflex. You should get about 10lbs added strength for the backing and about 10lbs added strength per inch of relfex. This allow you to make a bow that at brace height pulls the same as a bow 30lbs lighter than you want, put the backing on, glue in two inches of reflex and come out the form bang on the weight you want. Ideally you should not have to cut any wood off after the glue up. Cutting wood off is cutting valuable pre-stressed wood off. You only have to see how reflex increases when you take wood off the belly and how quickly reflex drops with a light sanding or rounding off the corners of the backing so see that wood removal is changing the stresses. I match the back to the belly as much as possible, round the corners etc so all I have to do is lightly sand the joints at the sides. This has given me the best bows I have made so far.
Birch should make a good core. It is quite light for it's stiffness.
Nick, I was lurking at Batsford. I have a strange ability to hide in the foreground! Trouble with these forums is that even after you have met people in the flesh you don't know you have.
Mark in England
Mark in England