Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Ryan Jacob on May 17, 2019, 08:13:33 am

Title: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Ryan Jacob on May 17, 2019, 08:13:33 am
After looking for a good while, Iíve finally found some good glue. I have some billets left over and Iím curious, is it possible to make a decent splice with only hand tools? I donít have the space or authority to own a bandsaw yet. Iím guessing a v-splice would be rather weak so should I go with a z or w-splice?
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Badger on May 17, 2019, 08:28:39 am
  Those Japanese saws are inexpensive and for me are easier to control. Some of the hardwoods will take some time but the slow movement helps you to stay on the lines.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 17, 2019, 08:33:49 am
Strength depends on the length of the glue line. The more fingers you have the shorter the overall splice can be. This link will help you understand finger joints

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fplrp382.pdf

I see no reason not to do one by hand. I made a jig to help me but I still end up doing a bunch of fiddling to get them right. If you are one of those fortunate people that can saw a straight line it should be easy. Make up a sanding stick that will fit down in between the fingers.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 17, 2019, 08:40:33 am
And steaming/boiling and clamping covers a multitude of errors ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Woodely on May 17, 2019, 09:11:51 am
I have done some remarkable work with the Japanese saw making dado and rabbit cuts.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: ohma2 on May 17, 2019, 10:20:47 am
Ditto on the jap, saw
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Limbit on May 17, 2019, 11:53:31 am
Like others said, Japanese hand saw and v splice greater than 4''. There are a few rules you need to follow when using a Japanese hand saw and cutting joint, but you'll figure it out quick. Just practice on a cheap 2x4 of lumber a few times first. I prefer hand saws now. Cleaner cuts.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: bassman on May 17, 2019, 12:13:52 pm
I make Bamboo floor board bows with  5 inch v splices, and smooth on.Never had a failure.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: PatM on May 17, 2019, 02:31:45 pm
Willing to bet all the old composite bows were spliced with hand tools.   In many ways hand tools are better for this process., especially for beginners.

 I've never done a splice any other way.

 Also as noted v- splices of decent length are plenty strong.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 17, 2019, 02:53:48 pm
I think I will try my next one with hand tools. My jig "works" but has limitations. I'll just watch a few Japanese joinery videos for inspiration.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hamish on May 17, 2019, 03:11:57 pm
Here's an old post of mine that might help. Good splices can be cut by hand if you are patient enough.



 Hamish
Member

Posts: 614
 

Re: cutting splices with hand tools
ę Reply #16 on: March 29, 2015, 05:51:44 pm Ľ

Quote
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Cutting splices by hand:
It all comes down to accurate marking out, and good quality tools.

The sides and belly should be planed flat and squar,. Not easy if you don't have the tools or experience.
Mark the splice on the back . The flat and square surfaces allow you use a combination square to project accurate lines around the sides, to the belly. Mark up the lines belly and you will have identical sets of lines on both back and belly.
Mark out waste area on both sides of both billets and double check that the correct areas will be cut.
 
Cut from both sides rather than sawing from one side and hoping the cut will stay square. A spliced handle is going to be 1.5 to 2" deep, from back to belly which is too much for most people to cut accurately with a handsaw.
When you cut from  each side you first saw to the other side only at the top, then down the handle staying on the same side, the blade doesn't go through to the other side  .  Then flip it around and repeat. This leaves a hidden peak of material in the middle which you then cut. The billet now has kerfed partial depth cuts on both sides so sawing down the peak is easy as the kerfs guide the sawblade from one side to the other of the billet.

You need a good saw, either a very large western tenon saw rip cut teeth with a back on it to stiffen the blade. You will need one the allows at least 4.25" depth of cut. (expensive for a new one)
Better off getting a Japanese pull saw, with rip cut teeth, as they don't need a blade stiffener, so they can cut 4"depth no problem.

If you don't have any experience practice on some scraps, both squaring up and cutting.
Hamish.


Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Sabb on May 17, 2019, 03:55:36 pm
I'll second making your splicing area flat and square, and add in make both halves the same size. Life is much easier that way. Also mark every face of your stock.
 And remember it doesn't have to be pretty to be solid

Sebastian
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Badger on May 17, 2019, 04:17:58 pm
  A few times I was having problems getting flat and square so I covered the end of the billet with plaster of paris to make both sides flat for accurate marking. It was easy to sand the plaster flat and easy to mark.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Ryan Jacob on May 17, 2019, 06:09:00 pm
Thanks to all of you for providing help. Itís time to get on attempt #10.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hawkdancer on May 17, 2019, 08:33:06 pm
Keep practicing with scrap wood - you can always use the pieces to broil a steak! (lol) (lol) (lol) >:D (=).  Never tried a splice, but this info sounds good. I got lots of scrap wood!!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hawkdancer on May 17, 2019, 08:34:39 pm
You need a permit to have a bandsaw?!!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hawkdancer on May 17, 2019, 08:37:32 pm
You need some sort of permit to have a bandsaw??!!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Ryan Jacob on May 17, 2019, 11:41:28 pm
Hawkdancer
When youíre 15 like me, ďauthorityĒ is summed up with whether mom or dad will allow it. ;D
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hawkdancer on May 18, 2019, 07:20:32 am
Just convince them they really need a bandsaw!  Assuming, of course, there is room available, and some practical application! >:D. You might also check to see if there is one available at school in the shop area, the maintenance people surely have one, then it's just a matter of getting permission to use it, or get someone to make the cuts.  But try to learn to do it by hand first, and watch your fingers!  Use scrap wood until you develop the skill level, practice, practice, practice!  Good luck and keep learning!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 18, 2019, 11:16:42 am
Speaking here as a former 15 year old and a 15 year olds parent. Learn to use the hand tools.They work well and they are cheap. A bandsaw worth having for bow work is going to cost a few bucks. A year or two down the road you're going to be looking for financial help to buy a car. If your parents can point to a bandsaw that's been parked it the corner for a year it ain't going to help.
Sermon mode off ;D
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 18, 2019, 11:19:35 am
I'm trying a hand done splice. First one ever. One limb done and it looks not to bad. The tough one coming up after lunch. I will post pics, warts and all.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 18, 2019, 11:53:27 am
Back and belly right after sawing and the tapered sanding stick.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 18, 2019, 12:48:37 pm
I've done better but I'm going to boil and clamp it now. I'm gluing some deflex in this one and that's why there are pieces sticking out.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Ryan Jacob on May 18, 2019, 04:36:22 pm
Iím attempting a v splice to start out with, figure I should start simple and work my way up.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 18, 2019, 05:35:09 pm
Here it is after cooling off. This splice is 2.5" long and has seven glue lines for a total of 17.5" of glue line. A "V" joint would have to be 8.75" long to be as strong. You lose a bit with every point, I have 6 and you will have one but for bows more is better. You can get it all in the middle of the handle so you don't have a glue joint going through the arrow pass area and it can hide under a leather wrap. That's not to say that a "V" joint won't work. It will, but more points works better so try more next time. I still have to work on the points, I can't seem to get nice sharp points. I think I need a finer saw or more talent.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Ryan Jacob on May 18, 2019, 07:08:01 pm
Yeah, Iím probably gonna glue an additional piece in the handle.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Eric Krewson on May 19, 2019, 02:38:59 am
Good job DC but that many fingers is overkill. I have done over 100 Z splices, most 3 1/2" so the handle leather covers them up, none have failed.I like a cutting pattern drawn on paper and glued to the billet, in this case a failed limb replacement.

Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 19, 2019, 05:42:22 am
Yeah, I looked at it this morning and realised that 3 or 4 fingers would have given me lots of glue line. Might have been a little easier to get nice points too. I used to use a 4"(about) "Z" splice like yours but I always found myself fretting about the arrow pass coming so close to the glue line. When Upstate posted a picture of his(copied from Marc, I believe) shorter multi fingered joint I decided to go that route. The arrow pass is nowhere near the splice and the splice is in the widest part of the handle. That plus it's easier to hide if you fudge the joint some ;D ;D
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Eric Krewson on May 20, 2019, 03:14:51 am
On the picture above the good limb has already been spliced so I am making a splice over a splice. I consider glued wood to be stronger than just wood alone. It is a lot easier to break a 1/2" board than a 1/2" piece of plywood.

I make my splices 1 1/4" wide then shape my handle, With a 3 1/2" splice my arrow pass is always above the splice but I don't think it matters.

Back when I made longer splices I cut arrow passes slightly into the splice but none ever failed.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Stoner on May 20, 2019, 04:37:47 pm
Another option. John
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Woodely on May 20, 2019, 04:47:42 pm
Excellent job stoner.  Never seen it done that way.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hawkdancer on May 21, 2019, 07:19:57 am
Stoner, very interesting splice!  How well does it hold up?  I assume it is a non-working handle?
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hamish on May 21, 2019, 03:19:56 pm
Stoner, Great example of thinking outside the box. Looks like it would  be a good idea if you have short billets, and want to eke out a few extra inches for draw, that would get lost with a conventional splice.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: PaSteve on May 21, 2019, 05:50:50 pm
John, that does look really nice. Great job.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Stoner on May 26, 2019, 06:07:02 pm
Thanks guy's, It was just a brain fart idea. It is a non-bending handle and shoots great right or left handed. John
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: shadowwalker on May 28, 2019, 06:20:59 am
That looks sharp !! ( Why is it asking me to answer so many questions in order to post my comment? That's incredibly annoying, will it do this every time I post ? If so, I won't be posting)
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on May 28, 2019, 08:35:06 am
That goes away after a few posts. it's a security thing. Welcome aboard
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hawkdancer on May 28, 2019, 06:41:41 pm
Shadowwalker, welcome aboard!  These folks have a wealth of knowledge to share!  Those security screens are sort of like an initiation! >:D
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: shadowwalker on May 29, 2019, 10:20:22 am
Well, maybe I'll give it a shot. I do have a couple of bows almost ready to post. I have a hard time reading those letters I'm supposed to copy. Good thing I have the " listen" option.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: simson on May 30, 2019, 12:37:31 am
@ Stoner: what a great idea, I really love the pattern on the back!

BTW:
I never use power tools for splicing, always Japanese saws. And I do similar like Eric Krewson. I made me a word doc with the pattern of the splice and copy this on adhesive paper. So it is simple to use, just watch the right direction with a piece of cord.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: bjrogg on May 30, 2019, 01:23:38 am
That splice does look awesome Stoner. Beautiful bow.

I'm watching and learning from this post. I just picked up a ton of short Osage that will mostly be billets I'll have to either splice or make take downs. I'm probably going to be using hand tools to.

It could be two tons
Bjrogg
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Eric Krewson on May 30, 2019, 02:46:54 am
I never thought of this before, always having plenty of wood to make bows as long as i wanted them to be. After the broken limb tip fix I posted I found that one could stretch a bow blank it they were willing to do the tedious work involved.

Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Stoner on June 09, 2019, 05:44:14 am
I just use a wood bow stretcher, kinda works like a stone stretcher. I once told a guy how to steam bend stone, I know he went home telling everyone. All the masons were on the ground in tears laughing.

Very nice laminating job on those tips Eric. John
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: ohma2 on June 09, 2019, 06:16:51 am
Stoner thats a novel idea and it makes the back of the bow really pop.i sure wouldnt cover up that work.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hawkdancer on June 09, 2019, 08:44:14 am
>:DMethinks, there is a bit of a leg puller involved with stone bending and wood stretching!  Similar to
Jackalope and Mugwump hunts!  (lol). Quite a bit of info about splices here, though!
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Hawkdancer on June 09, 2019, 09:11:26 am
That splice does look awesome Stoner. Beautiful bow.

I'm watching and learning from this post. I just picked up a ton of short Osage that will mostly be billets I'll have to either splice or make take downs. I'm probably going to be using hand tools to.

It could be two tons
Bjrogg
I must be getting younger or something!  I sort read "I'm probably going to making tool handles, too"
I'll be glad to trade for some of the off cuts for tool and hawk handles and knife scales!  I think my new hawk would look real nice with an Osage handle!

Stoner,  is there a name for that type of splice?  Looks similar to what was defined to me once as a "Spanish Windlass" by a canoe maker.
Hawkdancer
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: DC on June 09, 2019, 10:04:46 am
Stoner did you have a reason for doing it in that direction rather than turning the "V's" around and having a diamond shape in the middle.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Ryan Jacob on June 09, 2019, 09:12:01 pm
DC

Thanks guy's, It was just a brain fart idea. It is a non-bending handle and shoots great right or left handed. John

According to Stoner, brainfart. Iím curious if itís any easier to make than the standard though.
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: Stoner on June 09, 2019, 11:54:56 pm
I tried the diamond splice originally but it acted like a wedge and split the limb. I must have jammed it in too tight. That's when I thought about this design, no outward pressure. You can see it in the picture above the finished bow. John
Title: Re: Splicing with handtools
Post by: bjrogg on June 10, 2019, 02:35:56 am
I tried the diamond splice originally but it acted like a wedge and split the limb. I must have jammed it in too tight. That's when I thought about this design, no outward pressure. You can see it in the picture above the finished bow. John

I had the same problem with my fingers joints. It's my first attempt at splicing billets. Won't be my last. Still got a big pile of em.
Bjrogg

PS got that pickup load from frank processed down a little.