Author Topic: how much tip movement..?  (Read 1112 times)

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Offline paulc

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2019, 05:31:37 pm »
Wow...y'all lost me :-)  I will read all this a few times and reread my copy of Bent Stick and then check back in.

Paul

Offline Weylin

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2019, 08:48:01 am »
  Weylin, the thread isn't about tilering long string or otherwise it is about how a new person knows when to brace his bow, not too strong and not too weak. A newer person or for that matter anytime I am working on an unfamiliar weight or design needs something objective we can go to. In this case the long string is only referencing checking current weight of the bow.

To be fair, it seemed like he was asking about getting the limbs balanced before brace so I thought I'd share how I got to that point. Since I don't use a long string I thought it would help to explain the techniques I use to determine if it's ready to brace. I wasn't trying to knock anyone's method, just adding my own into the mix. Lately I've been putting the bow in my stringer and pulling up as if I'm stringing it, that gives me a sense of whether I can feasibly string it, strengthwise, and I can also take a peak at how it's bending. Functionally it's not much different than tillering with a long string, just a little less hassle.
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Offline paulc

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2019, 09:37:52 am »
So, what I got out of all this...floor tiller(roughing in) until limbs bend a little bit-focus on even bending.  Put it on tiller stick and focus on even bending and slowly reduce weight until you hit your target weight.  Don't worry about bracing the bow until you are almost at target weight....?  Keep brace just high enough to clear arrow fletching...?

What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?

Thanks, Paul

Online SLIMBOB

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2019, 10:24:45 am »
The question I would ask is why wait to get a tight string on it?  This is assuming it is floor tillered evenly. What is the benefit in waiting?
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Offline stuckinthemud

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2019, 11:07:24 am »
I found that if I floor tiller too far, my bows all come in at the draw weight I like to shoot at since it is the strength in my arm that gets the limbs moving in the first place, and, as I shoot at about 35lb, that's not much..... If I am tillering for a higher draw weight then as soon as the bow shows a bit of springiness I get it on the tiller tree to chase the draw weight I need and that avoids me coming in too light.

Online Pat B

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2019, 11:50:01 am »
I floor tiller until I'm sure both limbs are bending evenly then to a long string equaling tiller to about 8" of "tip movement"(for me). Then I'm ready for low brace. At this point I study the bend and check weight. If everything is even I head for full draw at desired draw weight. If there are problems, which there usually is, now is the time to make corrections while you still have meat to remove. Once braced I check string alignment. If that needs work I set up a caul and add reflex while correcting lateral bends and temper the belly.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Weylin

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2019, 11:56:05 am »
So, what I got out of all this...floor tiller(roughing in) until limbs bend a little bit-focus on even bending.  Put it on tiller stick and focus on even bending and slowly reduce weight until you hit your target weight.  Don't worry about bracing the bow until you are almost at target weight....?  Keep brace just high enough to clear arrow fletching...?

What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?

Thanks, Paul

I think you're misunderstanding something important. Whether you use a long string or not you still want to get to a short string fairly early in the tillering process. All the methods that people were describing above are ways to determine even bending and getting a feel for the strength of the bow. You need to have the bow strung on a short string to be able to tiller the bow out to full draw. If you wait too long to string the bow on a short string you will have no real accurate way to know what the draw weight is at any given draw length. The long string can't tell you that, it can only give you an approximation of how evenly the limbs are bending in the early tillering process. If you stay on the long string too long when you eventually string the bow on a short string you way already be under weight and you may find that the tiller looks different on the short string and need to make further adjustments which would weaken the bow even further. In short, your goal is to get the limbs balanced and the bend evenly distributed as early as possible so that you can safely string the bow with a short string when the strength of the bow allows. From there you will continue to tiller on the short string until you reach full draw at your intended draw weight.
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Offline Badger

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2019, 12:34:09 pm »
Waylon I think the whole point is that you can use a long string to know what your current draw weight is it reads the same as if it were braced almost it's not even that critical how long the long string is it could be hanging down to 8 or 12 in and it'll still read the same at 24 in we're very close anyway

Offline Badger

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2019, 12:50:44 pm »
One of the first things I became aware of when I started teaching bow building was how many of our terms I subjective. To a new bow Builder terms like early on as soon as possible get the get the tips moving 8 in Etc those terms mean nothing to a person that has no experience using the long string it removes all the subjective terms because you could know exactly where you were at all the time it will give you a fairly accurate draw weight anytime you want one. I usually floor tiller about to about 80 or 90 pounds roughly and I start right off from the very beginning pulling up to a full Target weight UPS a 50 pounds. As long as those limbs are too strong I can't hurt those lives even if they're out of balance by pulling them at 50 lb. All I have to do is increase the inches until I get you about 23 in 22 in whatever and then I brace it. A newcomer with no experience at all can do this.

Offline Weylin

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2019, 01:22:04 pm »
What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?


Steve, I was addressing this part of his question. He seemed to have misunderstood about when to switch to a short string, thinking that he should tiller out to his target draw length on a long string which is something that I don't think anyone is suggesting.

I think your method is fine, I'm not trying to argue against it. I did early tillering the same way for years with good results.

Waylon I think the whole point is that you can use a long string to know what your current draw weight is it reads the same as if it were braced almost it's not even that critical how long the long string is it could be hanging down to 8 or 12 in and it'll still read the same at 24 in we're very close anyway

Are you saying that if you have a long string that hangs down 12" and you pull the string down to, lets say 50#@20" and then you brace that bow with a short string and pull it to 50# it will draw down to 20"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that doesn't seem right.
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Online SLIMBOB

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2019, 01:26:17 pm »
String angle is the determinate as to draw weight. Yes, resistance of the wood bending plays a role, but from 40 lbs to 50 lbs, itís not much different. If you miss weight, that is where it will happen. You shot for 50, it came in at 40. For whatever reason. The string angle part of the equation can be eliminated from that equation if braced earlier. One less issue to cause a problem. So the question remains, why not get it braced and simplify the process?
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Offline Badger

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2019, 01:30:05 pm »
What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?


Steve, I was addressing this part of his question. He seemed to have misunderstood about when to switch to a short string, thinking that he should tiller out to his target draw length on a long string which is something that I don't think anyone is suggesting.

I think your method is fine, I'm not trying to argue against it. I did early tillering the same way for years with good results.

Waylon I think the whole point is that you can use a long string to know what your current draw weight is it reads the same as if it were braced almost it's not even that critical how long the long string is it could be hanging down to 8 or 12 in and it'll still read the same at 24 in we're very close anyway

Are you saying that if you have a long string that hangs down 12" and you pull the string down to, lets say 50#@20" and then you brace that bow with a short string and pull it to 50# it will draw down to 20"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that doesn't seem right.
yes that's what I'm saying intuitively it doesn't make sense but I've been doing it for several years now it's very easy and very accurate this pain could be anywhere from 2 in to 10 or 12 in and it doesn't make much difference you're still reads very close to what it would read if it were braced

Offline Weylin

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2019, 02:07:38 pm »
What I don't get...how do you know you are approaching your target weight at target draw length without a tight string on the bow?


Steve, I was addressing this part of his question. He seemed to have misunderstood about when to switch to a short string, thinking that he should tiller out to his target draw length on a long string which is something that I don't think anyone is suggesting.

I think your method is fine, I'm not trying to argue against it. I did early tillering the same way for years with good results.

Waylon I think the whole point is that you can use a long string to know what your current draw weight is it reads the same as if it were braced almost it's not even that critical how long the long string is it could be hanging down to 8 or 12 in and it'll still read the same at 24 in we're very close anyway

Are you saying that if you have a long string that hangs down 12" and you pull the string down to, lets say 50#@20" and then you brace that bow with a short string and pull it to 50# it will draw down to 20"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that doesn't seem right.
yes that's what I'm saying intuitively it doesn't make sense but I've been doing it for several years now it's very easy and very accurate this pain could be anywhere from 2 in to 10 or 12 in and it doesn't make much difference you're still reads very close to what it would read if it were braced

Huh... wouldn't have guessed that. I will have to try that out for myself.
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Offline paulc

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2019, 02:36:05 pm »
Not to question Weylons experience but can anyone else explain/corroborate  what he has seen in his bow making? It really makes no logical sense that I can see, of course i dont know what I'm doing.

If it works I guess it works. Paul

Online SLIMBOB

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Re: how much tip movement..?
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2019, 02:48:44 pm »
Suffice to say you got 2 options. Work from the long string (which works) or work with a proper length string. Try both methods and make your own judgement.
Liberty, In God We Trust, E Pluribus Unum.  Distinctly American Values.