Author Topic: Sinew and Hide Glue  (Read 25162 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline bigcountry

  • Member
  • Posts: 841
Sinew and Hide Glue
« on: January 28, 2009, 07:09:27 pm »
I have done a search on hide glue on this page, and my head hurts.  Should I just use Knox for sinewing my bow?  Or should I go buy a 1/2 pound from a music instrument place like frets.com? 
Westminster, MD

Offline JackCrafty

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 5,628
  • Sorry Officer, I was just gathering "materials".
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2009, 07:26:24 pm »
If you have never used music instrument hide glue, then you might be better off using knox.  There is also a liquid hide glue available in a squeeze bottle from Titebond (mail order might be faster than trying to find it locally).  Ebay is the best place to find cheap hide glue, IMO, or you can trade for it here.

If I were you I would not use music instrument hide glue unless you have a proper hide glue warming set-up (hide glue pot)...and are working in a warm, humid shop.

Might wanna take a pill for the headache too. ;D
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline cracker

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,123
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2009, 07:26:34 pm »
Big Country
    You can buy hide glue from Three rivers archery.They are an advertiser in P.A. magazine.Ron
If we can't help each other what is the point of being here?

Offline TRACY

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,523
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2009, 07:30:08 pm »
3 Rivers has it as well as Pine Hollow Longbows, both sponsors of PA.

Tracy
It is what it is - make the most of it!    PN500956

Offline bigcountry

  • Member
  • Posts: 841
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2009, 07:46:09 pm »
I was going to use the hide glue from titebond, but was reading Jim's Hamm's book and he said he had several bows break using it.  Seems there are several sources

Is knox good?
Westminster, MD

Offline bigcountry

  • Member
  • Posts: 841
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2009, 07:48:55 pm »
Has anyone here used the stuff from 3r's?  Is it any good?
Westminster, MD

Offline M-P

  • Member
  • Posts: 876
  • PA731115
    • Traveling Surgery
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2009, 01:21:08 am »
Hi,  I have the impression that most hide and fish glues are pretty close to the same thing...except for the liquid kind which has been chemically treated to prevent gelling.  The  varieties of collogen glues vary mainly in how long they take to gel.  Knox gels quite quickly.  The hide glues from the archery suppliers ( or many woodworking caalogs) takes slightly longer.   Fish bladder glues take longer yet.   The longer it takes to gel, the easier it is to use.  A warm humid workroom also helps to slow the gelling.  To get a neat sinewing job it really helps to have time to lay the sinew on and smooth it out before the glue gels.  I've never tried the liquid glue, but I too have read Hamm's warnings against it.  An electric glue pot helps a lot.    Ron
"A man should make his own arrows."   Omaha proverb   

"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."    Will Rogers

Offline islandpiper

  • Member
  • Posts: 635
  • "Just one more bow, OK?"
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2009, 08:49:29 am »
Granulated hide glue comes in many grades.  I use mostly rabbit, the strongest.   I have used 3R glue for years in my violin shop.   It is hoofed-glue, i.e. horse/cow.   Good stuff.  Prep is easy, not rocket science.   No electric glue pot needed.   Go to Goodwill and buy an electric soup /tea pot......i go through one every other year and they cost a couple of bucks.   Get one with the adjustable heat level, knob on the bottom.   Or, buy new at the store, for about $18.   A good GLUE POT will set you back most of $100.  The key is to soak the glue properly, heat no higher than 150 degrees, thin the glue properly with clean water, and make sure your work is warm.   For large or complex glueings in our shop we warm up the contact faces with a hair dryer or alchohol lamp first.  Work in small, controllable zones and you will be successful, e.g. don't coat the entire back of the bow and then reach for the backing.  Good hide glue has a gell time of about 15 seconds.  Bottled hide glue is good for sealing envelopes, period.  Don't trust any wood work made or repaired with that junk......it never gells, it only dries. 

KNOX is a low strength compound.   Yes it works, but it works best in the kitchen.   

Questions?   PM me or post here or phone me at work. 

piper     http://www.kdavisviolins.com     (nearly 30-years running of using hide glue every dang day)

coyote pup

  • Guest
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2009, 09:38:17 am »
If you haven't gotten the idea already--do not use Liquid Hide glue in bottle form to sinew back a bow. I have seen people have success with Knox, and I have also seen people that didn't. The best bet it to buy or trade for a bag of the real thing.

Offline JackCrafty

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 5,628
  • Sorry Officer, I was just gathering "materials".
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2009, 11:56:49 am »
This very intereting topic comes around every so often and I'm glad it does.  I was a woodworker before I started making bows seriously and I brought many woodworking skills into my bowmaking hobby....including using glues of various sorts.

I never used hide glue in my woodwork because I was told it was a hassle, it had  a very short shelf life, and it was outdated.  I was told it was best used on restorations, glass etching, crackle finishes, musical instruments, and application of gold leaf and such.  And, of course, envelopes.  Anyway, I began using hide glue when I started sinewing bows.  I bought only the best grade stuff, invested money in a glue pot (not the expensive type), and read as much on the subject as possible.  Then I used it on a bow.  Boy, was that a shocker.  I think it took me 6 hours to sinew my first bow....not including processing the sinew, soaking the hide glue granules, and setting up a work area.  The biggest differences between working with sinew and working on wood joinery is the fact that you get the glue all over the place, you don't need to apply clamping pressure, and you're working with stuff (glue-soaked sinew) that will stick to you better than it sticks to the wood.

Point is, applying sinew is not like gluing up a joint.  And the strength needed to keep sinew attached to the back of a bow is not the same as the strength needed for woodworking.  I've never used liquid hide glue or knox, but I've heard they work fine.  The liquid hide glue has a limited shelf life, so it's risky to use unless you know the manufacture date.  I don't think they print it on the bottle.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 01:06:20 pm by jackcrafty »
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline ravenbeak

  • Member
  • Posts: 333
  • Pacific Yew Wood
    • Ravenbeak Natureworks
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2009, 12:56:36 pm »
I would highly suggest making your own glue.


Throw some hide in a pot of the back of the stove and simmer it for 2 days,  turning it off at night.  If there are any chunks left,  take them out and pour it into a shallow pie pan and put it in the fridge.

I recently tried dehydrating the glue to preserve it,  and while drying in a glass pyrex pie plate,  the glue shrinks and actually pulled two splinters of glass up.   Now that is immense pressure.

give it a try,  you'll learn alot,  and it is very satisfying to use glue you've made yourself,  from an animal you know.

Custom Yew Bows,  and bow making workshops
www.ravenbeak.com

Offline bigcountry

  • Member
  • Posts: 841
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 06:40:26 pm »
I was reading the glue section of TB vol1 and it said knox gelatin was the strongest of the bunch. I was shocked.  Evens stronger than fish glue or rabbit glue.
Westminster, MD

Offline Justin Snyder

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,794
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 09:52:23 pm »
I was reading the glue section of TB vol1 and it said knox gelatin was the strongest of the bunch. I was shocked.  Evens stronger than fish glue or rabbit glue.
I read an article in a scientific magazine that said knox isn't. The problem is that when you purchase hide glue you could be getting anything so there is no telling what strength you will get.  Read islandpipers info about various grades.  :D Buy from a source that will tell you what grade it is. 
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline YewArcher

  • Member
  • Posts: 415
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2009, 12:34:56 am »
Use Knox. It works very well for sinewing bows. I have sinewed bows with granulated hide glue from various sorces all very good, I have used TB2, TB3 and Knox. I now use Knox exclusivley for all of my sinew, rawhide, snake skin, fletching wraps etc.....It works very good. . The point I think most people miss when talking of sinew and glue is that the "bestest hardest strongest highest quality works on other aplications" is not nessecary for sinewing bows. Knox is a very high grade hide glue and I cannot recomend it enough and I have sinewed a lot of bows. It works great.

On another use for knox: I just built a Yumi in the traditional way.....bamboo and wood core rope and wedges. The core and back is glued with knox and its been shot well over 1000 times with no trouble. Its a glue that works very well for all bow making aplications. This last yumi one I did the belly with TB2 so that I could remove if nessecary with heat......otherwise its all knox. I am starting another Yumi in the AM and this one will be 100% knoxed.

Steve






Offline Coo-wah-chobee

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,503
Re: Sinew and Hide Glue
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2009, 12:57:24 am »
 Knox is not hide glue its bone glue. Therefore the proteins are not as strong as animal hides. Knox works like said depends on the quality of strength ya want. Ta each his own huh ? ............bob