Strength exercises

[Del the cat]

Del the cat and Rod.

Is it this draw your talking about. Looks really efficient and natural in some way. How about using it on lower weight Bows. I'm a beginner at shooting and was thinking of giving at try.

Look at 2.40 in the vid. I especially like that draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ_dX3sFrFM

Yeah that's the sort of thing...I don't camp it up quite as much myself (ooooh! ) but that's the sort of style... I have been known to overact by drawing in a huge noisey breath as I draw....ooooff 
In the vid, he seems to start low, go high and then come back down into the draw which seems a tad overblown..and all that leaping forwards after the arrow is barking mad  IMHO (some will insists it gives them longer range, but I'm skeptical)
Find what works for you..don't injure yourself, but if you take care (maybe warm up a little) your body and the bow should tell you the best way for you.
Del
Del

[TBod]

Ok thanks! Del

This guy is basically doing the same thing as I see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtTyOf8OCKg

[Yewboy]

Del the cat and Rod.

Is it this draw your talking about. Looks really efficient and natural in some way. How about using it on lower weight Bows. I'm a beginner at shooting and was thinking of giving at try.

Look at 2.40 in the vid. I especially like that draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ_dX3sFrFM

Yeah that's the sort of thing...I don't camp it up quite as much myself (ooooh! ) but that's the sort of style... I have been known to overact by drawing in a huge noisey breath as I draw....ooooff 
In the vid, he seems to start low, go high and then come back down into the draw which seems a tad overblown..and all that leaping forwards after the arrow is barking mad  IMHO (some will insists it gives them longer range, but I'm skeptical)
Find what works for you..don't injure yourself, but if you take care (maybe warm up a little) your body and the bow should tell you the best way for you.
Del
Del

he is not actually physically leaping forward, this is a result of shooting a heavy bow in this case Glen is shooting a bow nearly 130lb and he is putting so much into the distance shot that this is the result, he could not force himself to stop this movement, he also knows how to shoot distance as he was the record holder for shooting the EWBS Livery arrow furthest untill only a couple of weeks ago.

[Yewboy]

Ok thanks! Del

This guy is basically doing the same thing as I see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtTyOf8OCKg

the guy in this vid is Kevin Hicks and the he is primarily a target archer and a very good one, just look at the difference inthe draw length, Glen behind his ear and Kevin to the Jaw line, that is quite a big difference.

[TBod]

Yewboy

Yes I noticed the shorter draw. I just think his draw is kind of the same thing. Starts high etc..Thats what I meant with basically. However it looks very good to me and think I gonna try it to start with.

Thanks!

[Yeomanbowman]

he is not actually physically leaping forward, this is a result of shooting a heavy bow in this case Glen is shooting a bow nearly 130lb and he is putting so much into the distance shot that this is the result, he could not force himself to stop this movement, he also knows how to shoot distance as he was the record holder for shooting the EWBS Livery arrow furthest untill only a couple of weeks ago.

Glen shot a fine shot at Batsford this year and was the well deserved winner of the Livery with his super fast Italian yew bow.  However, this was never the record distance.  It is, and remains, 272 yards and was shot by Al at the Welsh Borders shoot on the 1st February this year with his self yew bow.

Results here...
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/welshbordersshoot.html

[Del the cat]

he is not actually physically leaping forward, this is a result of shooting a heavy bow in this case Glen is shooting a bow nearly 130lb and he is putting so much into the distance shot that this is the result, he could not force himself to stop this movement, he also knows how to shoot distance as he was the record holder for shooting the EWBS Livery arrow furthest untill only a couple of weeks ago.

I did say it was just my opinion...however Sir Isac Newton would probably agree with me too, action and reaction are equal and opposite.
Think about it...the bow limbs, string and arrow are all going forward...guess which way the reaction will be?
I'm not saying he's not a great archer, distance shot or anything else...we all have our own stlye, just giving my personal view... I have no axe to grid. But if you want to argue it over a pint sometime I'd be more than happy.

Actually... just look at the video again... in the first shot there is no 'leap forward' at all and again at 2:41a higher trajectory shot (this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ_dX3sFrFM ),

Quad erat demonstrandum.

Del

[Davepim]

The same guys who use this "leaping forward" technique say they get better distance than when they don't use it; if this isn't an indication that the technique works, I don't know what is. This is a subject that has been covered before on the forum, in a different thread.

Dave

[Rod]

Del the cat and Rod.

Is it this draw your talking about. Looks really efficient and natural in some way. How about using it on lower weight Bows. I'm a beginner at shooting and was thinking of giving at try.

Look at 2.40 in the vid. I especially like that draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ_dX3sFrFM

What I notice in this video more than anything is looking at the the three blokes shooting together.
I notice that Steve is "sitting" slightly as he comes to full draw which is something I do myself in certain situations, and interestingly enough, a technique espoused by some Oriental teaching on handling a war bow.
No doubt influenced by horseback archery usage, but applied in some schools of archery on foot.
But what I notice more than anything is who makes the least fuss and display of effort.
To me this is a sign of control always assuming that the arrow consistently confirms this view.

Not to say that someone with a more fussy, less economic style could not be as accurate, but in the long run, I think it less likely.

If we look at the draw of Ratty that features on his posts, we will see that he draws with his wrist bent.
Not the worst or most blatant example, but he retains a little of this right up to his loose.
This is a sure indicator of slightly too much use of the hand, too little use of the back and not quite achieving full extension and a straight line of force.
Not an extreme examople, admittedly, and it does not imply that he does not have control, just that he is doing more work than he needs to and doing that work in a slightly less efficient manner.
And giving up some draw length.

Rod.

[Rod]

Ok thanks! Del

This guy is basically doing the same thing as I see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtTyOf8OCKg

the guy in this vid is Kevin Hicks and the he is primarily a target archer and a very good one, just look at the difference inthe draw length, Glen behind his ear and Kevin to the Jaw line, that is quite a big difference.

"Primarily a target archer and a very good one" ?

He is looking at the gold shape and hitting around the perimeter of it instead of looking at the center and hitting the centre.

But what you say about the draw length is true enough...

Rod.

[Del the cat]

The same guys who use this "leaping forward" technique say they get better distance than when they don't use it; if this isn't an indication that the technique works, I don't know what is. This is a subject that has been covered before on the forum, in a different thread.

Dave

That may well be the case for flight shooting, but I didn't think that's what the original question was about?
Hey ho, I think I shall just scamper off to my secret cat nest and have a nap.
Del

[Rod]

I'm inclined to think that there is a degree of confusion about this leaping habit.

Some folks might see the evidence of longer shots and copy the "leaping" part, when they would probably do better to copy the dynamic extension, cleaner loose and bow hand push co-ordinated with the loose.

In a way it is like some target shooters who think that if they touch their shoulder after the loose they have made a proper shot, when what most of them are doing is to execute the shot badly and then affecting a stylised imitation of the natural consequence of shooting with rearward extension and a relaxed wrist.

The leaping, if overdone and combined with a premature and excessive throwing out of line could detract from the distance achieved in the same way that it would affect accuracy if shooting at a mark.

Rod.

[ratty]

Del the cat and Rod.

Is it this draw your talking about. Looks really efficient and natural in some way. How about using it on lower weight Bows. I'm a beginner at shooting and was thinking of giving at try.

Look at 2.40 in the vid. I especially like that draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ_dX3sFrFM

What I notice in this video more than anything is looking at the the three blokes shooting together.
I notice that Steve is "sitting" slightly as he comes to full draw which is something I do myself in certain situations, and interestingly enough, a technique espoused by some Oriental teaching on handling a war bow.
No doubt influenced by horseback archery usage, but applied in some schools of archery on foot.
But what I notice more than anything is who makes the least fuss and display of effort.
To me this is a sign of control always assuming that the arrow consistently confirms this view.

Not to say that someone with a more fussy, less economic style could not be as accurate, but in the long run, I think it less likely.

If we look at the draw of Ratty that features on his posts, we will see that he draws with his wrist bent.
Not the worst or most blatant example, but he retains a little of this right up to his loose.
This is a sure indicator of slightly too much use of the hand, too little use of the back and not quite achieving full extension and a straight line of force.
Not an extreme examople, admittedly, and it does not imply that he does not have control, just that he is doing more work than he needs to and doing that work in a slightly less efficient manner.
And giving up some draw length.

Rod.

hello all 

i think it would be fair to explain that the bow i am shooting here was 138# at 32 inches at the time.

my wrist angle is a result of shooting flat in the clip, you may also notice my bow elbow is bent ( not locked out), the angle of my wrist and elbow help
 to relieve pressure on my bow shoulders rotator cuff..  you may notice my bow arm and draw arm decend at the end of the draw  to open the last bit of the bow.

most of my draw comes from the rotation of my shoulders more so than my bicep.

ps. i'm quite satified with my technique. it serves me well, and has enabled me to reach some good bow weights although i will say the larger the draw weight the larger the compression forces which reduce my draw length.

here's a different angle vid with a 133# @ 32"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wBdXcbxrJg&feature=channel_page

pps. i am 5ft 9 inch tall and my current weight is 13 and a 1/2 stone.

[Rod]

Don't feel that you are being singled out for criticism, there is scarcely anyone who does not have some peculiarity that could be commented upon, myself included.

The comment on the wrist being bent does not refer to your bow-hand but to the drawing hand.

In this case where the wrist remains bent it is a proof that some work is being done by the drawing hand that might better be done by the back.

Your comments are noted and entirely reasonable in context, but it does not invalidate the observation.

Compare the alignment of your drawing side forearm in relation to the line of the shaft at full draw, both from the side and from behind at full draw, to others who are better or worse in this respect and form your own opinion.

I know that in my own shooting I have more control over the draw and where the arrow goes when I make a direct line of force through the shot.

It goes without saying that it is physically harder to make a full extension when you push the draw-weight that you can manage.

All the more reason to consider matters of form and see if there is a possible benefit to be obtained.
I know that I am never complacent about my form and regard it always as a work in progress.

It also begs the question of what draw-weight allows full extension at this stage of the game.
This applies to anyone who is pushing their draw-weight, whatever their comfort zone.

Rod.

[Yeomanbowman]

I think the comments about an in-line wrist/forearm/arrow come from a low draw weight and (relative) short draw length perspective unless you have long arms.   The ‘vicarage lawn’ style will need to be adapted to accommodate a long draw for many archers.  Firstly, as Ratty says, decent draw-weights compress the body and reduce draw length at the same 'anchor point' (for want of a better expression) compared to low sub 100lb weight bows. 

Look at this image of Simon Stanley, notice how his forearm drops below the level on the arrow.  Anything else would shorten his draw-length and thus reduce the power and effectiveness.  Look at this medieval image and notice the parallels in forearm position.

This method is the only way I can get to a 33" draw as long as the warbow is at the lighter end of proper weights, however, at a decent weight this drops to 32" absolute max.
It is very difficult for me to prove but I find it hard to believe there was one universal style of draw in the medieval/Tudor period.  Ascham breaks it down but there is still room for variation yet conform to his good practice.    I’m sure there are definitely universally bad ways to do it but I think that body type must play a part.   Look at modern sports and look at how many different techniques there are to complete a given task.  For example, in powerlifting there is a regular style deadlift and the sumo style too.  Which one is right depends on your limbs and torso.