Main Discussion Area > English Warbow
Traditional English Draw
CraigMBeckett:
jkekoni,
Don't you mean chariot riots predate football?????
By the way, the original "footbal"l game was more of a riot than anything else with hoards of "players" doing almost anything to move the ball towards their opponents goal, so football hooliganism actually predates the game as it is known today.
The hand sign as you show it is actually the victory sign as popularised by Sir Winston Churchill during world war 2.
Craig.
Yeomanbowman:
I have seen a few English contemporary depictions of 3-fringered draw. The Beverly Minster carving of an archer on the choir stalls springs to mind.
bow-toxo:
--- Quote from: CraigMBeckett on August 26, 2010, 04:39:37 am ---
--- Quote ---Please let me know the pre 20th century evidence for the two finger salute as well as French statutes on the subject
--- End quote ---
Erik I quote from Wikipedia
--- End quote ---
Craig: I quote from your quote."According to a popular legend the two-fingers salute and/or V sign derives from the gestuit doesn't necessarily mean that the French practised it, just that Henry found it useful for propaganda, and it does not show that the 'two-fingers salute' is derived from the hypothetical behaviour of English archers at that battle."
I believe there is no record implying that the archers of Agincourt used the “two fingered salute” nor any French statutes about the finger amputations. Nonetheless I am quite impressed by your research. Could you [or anyone else] find this ? What is the source of the report of archers cracking an oyster shell at 80 yards and piercing an open hand at 100 yards ?
Thank you for the Roi Modus reference. I have relied on the translaion on bowhunting in Hansard’s ‘Book of Archery’ in archery library.
RE Two or three finger draw. John Gower’s book ‘Vox Clamantis’ was published 1400 in two editions, one showing him drawing a longbow with three fingers, and another showing him drawing a shorter smallbow with two fingers. I think that is the way it usually works.
Erik
CraigMBeckett:
Eric,
Not able so far to find much more, however below is an excerpt from contemporary Burgundian chronicler Jean de Wavrin's (or Jehan de Waurin's) work:
“En oultre leur disoit et remoustrait comment les Francois se vantoient que tous les archiers Anglois qui seroient prins feroient copper trois doitz de la main dextre adfin que de leur trait jamais homme ne cheval ne tuassent. Teles admonitions et pluiseurs autres que toutes ne puis escripe fist lors le roy d’Angleterre a ses gens.”
apparently in English this reads:
“And further he told them and explained how the French were boasting that they would cut off three fingers of the right hand of all the archers that should be taken prisoners to the end that neither man nor horse should ever again be killed with their arrows. Such exhortations and many others, which cannot all be written, the King of England addressed to his men”.
See http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50254g.image.f8
So contemporary source(s) agree that the archers were told the French would cut off their fingers, so one goes back to the taunts that such a threat (be it true or false) would elicit from the English victors.
Craig.
bow-toxo:
--- Quote from: CraigMBeckett on August 30, 2010, 08:50:36 pm ---Eric,
Not able so far to find much more, however below is an excerpt from contemporary Burgundian chronicler Jean de Wavrin's (or Jehan de Waurin's) work:
“En oultre leur disoit et remoustrait comment les Francois se vantoient que tous les archiers Anglois qui seroient prins feroient copper trois doitz de la main dextre adfin que de leur trait jamais homme ne cheval ne tuassent. Teles admonitions et pluiseurs autres que toutes ne puis escripe fist lors le roy d’Angleterre a ses gens.”
apparently in English this reads:
“And further he told them and explained how the French were boasting that they would cut off three fingers of the right hand of all the archers that should be taken prisoners to the end that neither man nor horse should ever again be killed with their arrows. Such exhortations and many others, which cannot all be written, the King of England addressed to his men”.
See http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50254g.image.f8
So contemporary source(s) agree that the archers were told the French would cut off their fingers, so one goes back to the taunts that such a threat (be it true or false) would elicit from the English victors.
Craig.
--- End quote ---
De Wavrin had been in the French ranks at Agincourt and later worked for the English as a captain of Burgundian mercenaries. I consider him a credible witness. As he clearly specifies three fingers, I guess we can throw out the speculative fantasy of the defiant English archers two finger salute. Three finger salute anyone?
Erik
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version