Author Topic: Question on a Longbow-related quote  (Read 11092 times)

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Offline dmassphoto

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Question on a Longbow-related quote
« on: October 11, 2010, 11:00:13 pm »
Hello all,
  I'm doing a small speech on the English Longbow and I'm trying to find a quote I saw here a while back referencing the fictional use of the English Warbow in a Revolutionary War or Civil War battle, but I can't seem to find the right quote.  I remember the discussion being about distance of a Warbow vs. a musket of the time and the rate of fire, but that's about it.  I think the quote went something like "If we had a company of English Archers, the battle might have gone differently" or something.  Does anyone have any information or might be able to help out?  Thanks!

D.

Offline Stonedog

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2010, 11:02:21 am »
While i do not have a quote for you, I "believe" that Ben Franklin suggested the use of the bow for the Continental Army instead of the musket.....

Do a bit of research on that....
Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day.

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Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 12:27:40 am »
Franklin did indeed recommend the manufacture and issuance of longbows for the Continental Line.  Faster production, cheaper, greater rate of fire, and the incredible demoralizing effect of someone screaming his lungs out with an arrow thru his guts.  Now I just gotta find that reference...
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline Cromm

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 07:33:45 am »
I think I have seen that too. I think it was in a letter he sent....
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Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 04:20:18 pm »
Found this on a website and it discusses the subject rather thoroughly:


Guns and Bows and Arrows: What if the Continental Army Had Taken Ben Franklin's Suggestion?
In February 1776, Benjamin Franklin sent a letter to General Charles Lee, expressing his wish that "pikes could be introduced" along with "bows and arrows," which, Franklin added, "were good weapons, not wisely laid aside." What if the Continental Congress and the American army had taken up Franklin's suggestion?

Franklin's reasons for recommending the longbow over the musket are difficult to refute in an eighteenth century context. Those reasons were essentially the following:

*The bow was often more accurate.
*A man could shoot four arrows in the time it takes to fire and reload a musket.
*No gunsmoke, thus no problems in field vision.
*An incoming flight of arrows is rather disconcerting to the enemy.
*An arrow stuck to a man essentially immobilizes him, until extracted.
*Bows and arrows are more easily provided than muskets and ammunition.

Given the Continental Army's supply problems, one wonders why Franklin's suggestion wasn't more readily entertained.

Perhaps some of my readers have come across some information on this subject, but, based on my reading of the history, I would say the reasons Franklin's suggestion was never given serious thought are:

1) Image: Using bows and arrows was considered primitive. Having an army with uniforms, muskets, bayonets, professional training, etc. was a mark of civilization and progress. To regress back to the 1500s or to adopt tactics used by Native Americans was probably not a direction that the Continental Congress was even willing to contemplate. A more serious dimension to this was the fact that the Americans may have feared that such a direction would result in their being taken less seriously by France, Spain, and the Netherlands. They wanted these European powers to see them as a respectable nation ready to take its place in the family of nations.

2) Chivalry: The advent of gunpowder had a lot to do with the decline of armour on the battlefield. While armour provides some protection against arrows, it provided virtually none against musket balls! By the time of the American Revolution, European style warfare had evolved to armies in bright uniforms maneuvering on the open field and firing musket volleys at one another, with some artillery and cavalry thrown in for variety and good measure. To reintroduce bows and arrows would have been deemed (in all likelihood) as "ungentlemanly," much like the British viewed colonists shooting at them from behind rocks and trees.

Perhaps some of my readers could add to those reasons, but I think that (consciously or unconsciously) the above two were probably among them.

Still, one wonders if the American Revolution
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline jb.68

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2010, 05:23:20 pm »
Wellington also considered the use of the longbow  during the peninsular wars and commissioned a report.  The report came back and amongst the reasons were cost and time in training the archers.  It was considered that it would take at least 7 years to get archers up to a decent standard and be more cost effective than training soldiers to point and pull a trigger.  I think the often-quoted phrase that he was told is  “No such skilled men exist in England anymore my Lord”

jb

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 06:49:42 pm »

*Bows and arrows are more easily provided than muskets and ammunition.

That statement is almost comical. Definitely spoken by someone who hadn't tried to make 1000 arrows by hand.

Can you imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to ship 10,000 arrows. You might need to get a few more pack mules. As for rate of fire, it is true you can shoot faster with a bow, but you need to resupply a lot more often. How many arrows can a soldier reasonably carry?
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


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Offline Cromm

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2010, 08:00:31 pm »

*Bows and arrows are more easily provided than muskets and ammunition.

That statement is almost comical. Definitely spoken by someone who hadn't tried to make 1000 arrows by hand.

Can you imagine the logistical nightmare of trying to ship 10,000 arrows. You might need to get a few more pack mules. As for rate of fire, it is true you can shoot faster with a bow, but you need to resupply a lot more often. How many arrows can a soldier reasonably carry?

I would say 50 each man.
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Offline Postman

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 09:40:53 pm »
I think JB nailed it -  I know a lot of combat vets, some that even shoot compounds bows, that would be useless with any longbow,unless they were using it as a staff/club. When we are reading this now in the USA, I think we are envisioning our 50-65 lb. bows. Lethal, but probably not what Ben had in mind.  Also, pouring lead in a mold IS a lot easier than making an arrow.
 (BUT.... put me in a time machine and  I'd rather have my hunting bow than a musket  ;))

"Leave the gun....Take the cannoli"

John Poster -  Western VA

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2010, 02:47:51 pm »
There was a wonderful article on the Battle of Agincourt in a magazine called Primitive Archer, you might have seen it.  They had pretty good information on how many arrows were used, etc.  You gotta take into account that wars were planned as many as 5-10 years in advance and were scheduled often between planting in the spring and harvest in the fall.  There were Guilds of Fletchers, literally factories for the production of ammunition.  Gimme a couple years and the deep pockets of the king to pay for materials and I can get you a wagonload of arrows. 

An advantage they had that we may be overlooking is that they probably were not spine matching, grain weight matching, etc.  They were cranking out "clothyard" length shafts with bodkins on one end and fletching on the other....not Robin Hood's matched tournement darts. 
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline Cromm

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2010, 06:50:21 pm »
There was a wonderful article on the Battle of Agincourt in a magazine called Primitive Archer, you might have seen it.  They had pretty good information on how many arrows were used, etc.  You gotta take into account that wars were planned as many as 5-10 years in advance and were scheduled often between planting in the spring and harvest in the fall.  There were Guilds of Fletchers, literally factories for the production of ammunition.  Gimme a couple years and the deep pockets of the king to pay for materials and I can get you a wagonload of arrows. 

An advantage they had that we may be overlooking is that they probably were not spine matching, grain weight matching, etc.  They were cranking out "clothyard" length shafts with bodkins on one end and fletching on the other....not Robin Hood's matched tournement darts. 

I thank you. ;)
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Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 03:16:27 pm »
Just for giggles, I wonder how many of us could walk out in a big old field today with a dozen arrows and a bow of our choice and drop an arrow on a piece of real estate roughly equal to the size of the narrow defile that the French Chevaliers rode down when the English Tommies pooured on the heat? 

Or for that matter, imagine the rank and file Redcoats lined up across a football field in formation, shoulder to shoulder.  They were often 4 ranks deep and just a bit more than a pace apart.  30" stride is standard military pace (any DI's out have a correction for me?) So 4 yards deep would be a fair estimate of the depth of field that your target comprises.  Let's give ourselves some wiggleroom since few of us practiced every Sunday after church by edict of the Crown preparing for war.  Let's say that any arrow you drop in the last 10 yds of that football fieldwould count as a hit.  Hmmm, any of you wanna go out this week and see how many shafts you can drop in the "goal"?

I bet if you put that line of soldiers up at 50 yds most of us could shoot 35-40% scores all day long, but I am not so sure about that 90-100 yd mark.  Of course, that is not taking into account us having to "hold our mud" facing the 6 rounds per minute standard that the British could brag at the time.  Nor does it take into account the standard issue Brown Bess was 75 caliber (1.6 oz roundball) and "buck and ball" was not unusual (one .735 roundball with 6 buckshot sitting on top). 

Add this to your recommended reading list, "A Narrative of a Revolutionary Soldier: Some of the Adventures, Dangers and Sufferings of Joseph Plumb Martin" by Joseph Plum Martin.  It is the only biographical account of the Revolutionary War from someone that was not an officer.  It's fascinating, funny, and should be required reading before anyone can vote.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline Postman

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2010, 08:45:59 pm »
6 rounds /min? wow....Impressive rate of fire, even before the buck and ball factor. "Mr.Wizard! ....I don't wanna be a medieval archer anymore...."
"Leave the gun....Take the cannoli"

John Poster -  Western VA

Offline Sparrow

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, 12:22:32 pm »
Standing in an open field shooting at each other. (I reackon if we had kept that up much longer , we'd still be talking funny !)  ;D  '  Frank
Frank (The Sparrow) Pataha, Washington

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Question on a Longbow-related quote
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 09:14:13 pm »
The longstanding myth of the American Revolution was that the rebels won by using "nonlinear tactics".  History does not bear this out.  The records of the battles show time after time that they were fought in traditional linear tactics.  And very few battles were decided by rifle companies, the most famous of which was the Battle of Kings Mountain.  The right to speak with our very own funny accents was purchased by Continental Line Regulars carrying copies of the English Brown Bess and French muskets. 

On the other hand, the riflemen did add some undue stress on officers in red with their unsportsmanlike sniping, hehehe. 

Funny thing, at the Battle of Kings Mountain, the British Commander was Patrick Ferguson, leader of a famous British sniper unit and inventer of the breech loading muzzleloader!  He stated at the outset of the battle that the ragtag "over the mountain boys" wouldn't move him off that mountain.  He was right.  He's still there.  They didn't move him.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.