What Is Primitive REALLY ?

[TatankaOhitika]

Hey gang . Im not new to this sight but havn't post anything in a while . In the last couple days iv'e had some thoughts running through my head about primitive archery . Iv'e personally have been building bows and hunting with them for a little over 7 years . But what is primitive really ?

Let's look at the word primitive . I know it means " simple " . As simple as possible , but efficient at doing it's job . If im not mistaken , the very first bows were fully bending in design . Iv'e built quite a few stiff handled bows without arrow rests . But with stone tools this would make the job more time consuming . So is using a stiff handled design being built with steel tools primitive ? In my opinion , no .

I still use steel tools , but if you want to claim primitive , start from scratch and build it with stone tools . I have never seen but one native american musuem bow with a stiff handle design , and suprisngly it was on a 47" length ntn .

Id like to hear your guys opinion on this !!

-Aaron

[Ifrit617]

I agree. A lot of what gets posted on this site is art, but not truly primitive.

Jon

[Newindian]

Mostly on here primitive means old/historical, horn bows aren't simple nor are many other bows on here.
I call it primitive if it is made from natural materials, the closer to historical design the better.

[richardzane]

this is a good subject!
But i think its a fair question whats "primitive" ?...but then how far do we wanna take it?
Wouldn't "totally primitive" though mean that you don't use tables and chairs to work on and you sit on the ground with your wood and stone tools?
wouldn't total primitive mean that your energy to make a bow or arrow is created entirely by a stomach filled with wild game
and foraged and harvested plants ,harvested by stone age impliments? and no driving vehicles to the woods to harvest material-you walk!...see where i'm going?

Something similar happens with those of us who sell our art work in Santa Fe. Is it "contemporary" or "traditional?"
Is that pot fired in a traditional firing? whats "traditional?" Today Galleries define traditional firing as using tin ,milk crate and sheep and/or horse dung!

Well in order to get the "traditional" status for shows you'd be amazed at what some artists will do to play the game and have safe firings.
a nice roomy wind-proof tin shed is built , a raised wood and earth platform is built in the center of the shed, an electric kiln is installed to "pre-heat" the pottery.
once its preheated (NOT FIRED!) its moved with steel tongues or fiber insulated gloves to the center of the earth platform and covered with the "traditional" milk crate and dung is placed around the crate and its bic ignited using burning newspapers.....This has become an officially accepted "traditional" way to fire a pot
and be able to say it was NOT kiln fired. a LONG way from the old trench firings of the ancient pueblo peoples.

[ionicmuffin]

lets put it this way, I consider all bows not made with stone tools to be traditional bows so long as they are made of materials that are mostly natural(TB2 or 3 is fine) Anything that is made with stone tools and ALL natural materials gets my vote as "primitive" Another way to look at it is to say "aboriginal" that is a much better term in my opinion because it clarifies that we are talking about bows made before steel tools were available.

[Del the cat]

Dude if you want an argument come over here...
I agree it's a vague term, but then do we really want to get into semantics and pedantry?
You could define it with a time line (say pre 1800) or materials and say no, glass, carbon metal etc.
I think you are presumtious to say no primititve bows had stiff handles.
If a neolithic bowyer found a gorgeous stave that just happened to have a big gnarly knot in the middle he'd have left it stiff.
I think it's patronising to think that 'primitive' man had neither the artistry, imagination, curiousity or humour to make odd character bows.
I'm not saying he did, but curiosity and humour are surely two on mans enduring and endearing traits.
Now who's going to help me down off this high horse?
Del

[TatankaOhitika]

Im liking these responses . I agree that traditional bows are made even with steel tools  . But im by no means a purist . I always carry a knife . That's it . However I have built 3 hunting weight bows using just quartz and sandstone ( sandstone as a rasp , and quartz as crude scraper and chopper for rough shaping , If I had chert or flint that would be awesome ) If you ever go into a situation were long-term survival in combination with lack of tools becomes an issue , you can go in knowing that after establishing a shelter , a good water source , fire that can be mainatined , and a readily available low calorie food source , that within a month or two you can construct a hunting weight bow from a sapling using stone tools . And you can fashion a bowstring from natural fiber , and so forth ect.. To an in-experienced archer , this undergoing would be a waste of time . I know my hunting skill and capability , and I would not hesitate to expend calories making a bow an arrow to potentially bring home big game calorie ( think tasty ribs , not cold roots ) . I think if you boil it down , just using a steel knife is as simple as your gunna get to primitive . But we are modern people , with modern tools . Their is no reason not to use them . However , it's always fun to build a serious bow and arrow from stone tools you didnt by online . Then you know you have the skill to do that if your stuck naked , without anything

Del ! Oh boy . Argument it is  . I do agree with what you said though about an ol' caveman finding a knotted stiff handle stave .

[TatankaOhitika]

I remember when I first started making bows when I was 12 , But only started building big game bows 7 years ago . Well they werent really " bows " I made at 12 but they put food on the table . I would just bend a green hickory branch and tie a shoe string to it , whip up a few un fletched ( not straight ) willow arrows , and fling them at rabbits and trout in a shallow creek . It still worked . So my philosophy is that a primitive bow doesn't have to be art . It can be down right ugly . It worked . Because im sure as hell not trying to catch a rabbit with my bare hands .

[Jim Davis]

I think you are presumtious to say no primititve bows had stiff handles.
If a neolithic bowyer found a gorgeous stave that just happened to have a big gnarly knot in the middle he'd have left it stiff.
I think it's patronising to think that 'primitive' man had neither the artistry, imagination, curiousity or humour to make odd character bows.
I'm not saying he did, but curiosity and humour are surely two on mans enduring and endearing traits.
Now who's going to help me down off this high horse?
Del

I'd rather just cut the cinch and let gravity do what it does best!

My best guess, based on all the stone-age bows I have seen, and seen photos of, is that those bowyers ALWAYS used the best wood they could get and NEVER  went looking for "snakey" or "character" staves. Their purpose was to to get food or protect lives. I think it is only we "civilized" folks who have the luxury of time to show our skills in the use of wood that the iceman would have not given a  second look.

As for a definition  of primitive, I think no use of steel serves well.  I don't make primitive bows. I make natural material bows.

Lot of guys doing that today in Clarksville!

Jim Davis

[burchett.donald]

 Would you say Otzi the Ice Man was primitive? How about his bow? I wonder if he used his copper axe to rough out the stave or as a scraper? Just wanted to blow the stone tool theory out the door, you don't have to use stone tools to be primitive. Now with that said in my humble opinion I like my bows to have or be made of all natural materials, including the string. I guess we all have our own way...

[killir duck]

we read in the bible in the first half of genesis that there were "great ironworkers" who had great skill with iron and steel also in the same part of genesis that there was a left handed man i believe his name was Enoch, who was was a great archer and and hunter so i figure if there were "great ironworkers" i figure they probably had the technology to make scrapers, hatchets and drawknives, which just happen to be my primarey tools since i don't have a bandsaw (i've been putting it on  my christmas list for years with no luck).   Duck

[Joec123able]

I use modern tools. making a bow with stone tools Is on my to do list. One thing I've thought about is, it doesn't seem worth it for natives with stone tools to go cut a 14 inch diameter Osage tree split it dry it and chase the ring it seems way to much of a hassle for the tools they had I feel like most natives use sapling bows to take there food down

[twisted hickory]

Considering what not primitive is today (wheels, cables, carbon limbs, sights, releases) in my opnion the bows I make are primitive. The only non natural products used are the varnish, the tb3 and the b50 string. The reason I use modern varnish is so I spend less time maintaining the bows I use and more time shooting them. My goal however is to make a nice wapnanog bow that is sealed with some sort of pine pitch glue and the only thing not primitive is the string. So I guess it depends on your perspective. Are my bows truly primitive when compared to the compound bows of today? Yes. Of the bows made 300 years ago...They are real close aside from varnish and glue.
Greg

[SLIMBOB]

Lots of plains bows in museums all over the world with stiff handles, so I think Del is right, they had the skill and ability obviously.  Most were made with steel tools I would imagine, so "primitive" is a bit subjective, but they were certainly made in primitive conditions, without the benefit of band saws and sanders.  Pretty impressive stuff, but as Jim said, utilitarian in form and function.

[richardzane]

there was a time in the 1640s when at least one village of my wendat ancestors (of the "Huron" Confederacy) went back to "stone age" tools
and got rid of all the euro-trade goods as a choice to purify itself from invaders because it seemed where ever the french traders and Jesuits appeared ,
the diseases and dying became relentless killing off half the population reducing the confederacy to around 15,000. But this stone age return didn't last, obviously
people were still getting small pox and dying... and a steel tool is hard to resist.
In Ohio in the 1700s-1800s  my Wyandot ancestors were big time traders with the British and Americans in all kinds of materials and rarely used stone tools.
But they still developed their own unique styles.   To them sustainable life meant learning to survive with what you had around you.

"Primitive" can be a word relative to any historical time frame a person is living in.
 A Wyandot ancestor in the 1700s with trade hatchet, flintlock or a selfbow and kettle-brass tipped arrows would have viewed Ishi
and his tools as stone age "primitive".