Author Topic: Excel bow mass program  (Read 11806 times)

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Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2013, 07:20:18 pm »
  Read the above long paragraph, it explains a lot of this.

Offline echatham

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2013, 07:34:15 pm »
Just read it all for about the tenth time.  here is what is throwing me for a loop.  Say i have two bows... The limbs on each are 3/8 thick from fade to tip.  One is a pyramid... One is an American flatbow.  If i throw them both on the tillering tree the pyramid will be closer to circular and the flatbow would be bending more at the fades.... Cause it doesnt have the width tapered to give it closer to even bend.  That logic is sound right? 

Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2013, 08:06:36 pm »
 Yes, thats right so you need to thin the limbs on the wide limb bow. The width allows the wood to bend. the thickess just determines how far it can safely bend.

Offline echatham

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2013, 08:20:03 pm »
so what your method does, is attempt to make every working inch of  the limbs under the same amount of stress, even though that may mean something other than circular tiller depending on profile?  for instance  a wide/thin portion of the limb may be bending more than a narrow/thick portion, but still be under less stress?  so our flatbow would be elliptically tillered, and our pyramid would be circular.   
so on every bow i have built, where i just try to make it circular, no matter the profile.... (in other words the tillering gizmo or straight edge shows the same bend throughout)  is less than ideal?  could this be a significant contributor to the amount of set that my bows have taken?

Offline steve b.

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2013, 08:27:02 pm »
My question to "adb" on the other thread, after discussing this issue, was, "why ever have parallel limbs then?".  He basically said, "you never need to". 

But it makes sense to me that you may NEED to have the outer limbs bending on some bow in order to get the DRAW LENGTH that you want out of, say, a shorter bow.  So if that whole limb is bending alot, vs. the pyramid that is narrowing and therefore should NOT be bending as much there (the outer), it may need to be wide in the outer in order to be bending if, for example, it was an inferior species or inferior piece of wood.  Capish?

Offline Danzn Bar

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2013, 09:06:06 pm »
Thanks Badger!!!
For the great conversations.  Current/hands-on discussion is so much better than just reading past posts.
Thanks! again for keeping these discussions going.  You know, you are a good teacher.
DBar
Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking

Offline Jodocus

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2013, 03:55:31 am »
"why ever have parallel limbs then?"

Cause the stave is not wide enough to go full pyramid in the inner limbs. Or if you would, you'd get a real skinny bow. You need quite a wide stave with quite a flat back to make a good pyramid.
Don't shoot!

Offline Aussie Yeoman

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2013, 07:41:11 am »
Steve B:

I would say it's more important to get the inner limbs bending more on a short bow to reach draw length, because this contributes less to a shortening of tip-to-tip length as draw progresses. That's why holmgaar/molly designs do well at short lengths.

Where more aggressively elliptical tiller (that is, bends more near the tips) is beneficial is in longer bows. Say I have an order for a bow that for whatever reason, HAD to be 90 inches long but only 28" draw. What I would do is make the tiller so aggressively elliptical that it would almost appear I put two 28" normal limbs on a barely bending handle 34 inches long.

Others,

I'm not sure if the question was answered sufficiently, so here's some more fat to chew:

For a beam of uniform thickness to bend with equal stress along its length, it must taper in width in something very close to straight lines.

For a beam of uniform width to bend with equal stress along its length, the thickness must taper in a convex fashion, becoming more steeply tapered about 1/4 out from the tip.

We want a bow to bend with even stress as much as possible. Why is this? If a bow is bending to experience 10 units of stress everywhere except a 2" length of limb around midlimb, which experiences 7 units of stress, then that bit of limb likely has excess mass which slows the bow down. It also means the wood inside of that patch likely took more set, which projects to bigger set out at the tips.

Where you can afford to have less than equal stress is in the riser/handle/fade/flare area, as the amount of bend here (for flatbows most usually) is very low anyway, and usually takes no set.



Here's a design idea I just thought of: Think of a tiller shape you want to tiller. Some sort of ellipse. Start with a bow profile cut to pyramid design and tiller it to that desired tiller shape. What you will find is that the further out towards the tip you go, the more set it will have taken.

Now make another bow. But this time, using your first bow as a reference, make the profile a little wider wherever you see the set being too much. Just a little wider. You likely will still have a bow that has too much set in the outer half. So rinse and repeat.

Eventually, after a few tries, you will have empirically come to learn the perfect thickness taper and profile for that exact tiller shape you want.

Labour intensive, but an interesting exercise.



A bit more:

Strain is the percentage a beam's surface expands or contracts as a result of tension/compression. It is directly related to the radius of curvature the beam is bent to and the thickness of the beam. It can also be calculated by knowing the stiffness of the beam material, and the bending stress. A thick beam that bends a small amount might feel a great deal more strain than a thinner beam bent quite a bit further.

Theoretically, a properly tillered pyramid bow will not taper in straight lines, but will bulge slightly near the fades and taper to a zero-width at the tips. This is of course not possible in the real world and so there must be some width here. Adding width to a part of the beam increases bend resistance locally, meaning it becomes more stiff in proportion to the rest of the limb. As such, to make this section of limb less stiff, thickness must be reduced.

I've found lately that for a pyramid profile bow, the outer 1/3 to 1/2 of the limb need to be thinned slightly to achieve proper circular tiller.

A pyramid bow can be so narrow in the outer half because it is so thin in the inner half. Being thinner in the inner half, it bends further than the same part of a limb that has parallel width. The deflection here on the pyramid bow projects to a large displacement out at the tips, which means the outer half of the limbs can be of a cross section that bends less compared to the same section of limb in a bow with a parallel profile. It's kinda like a race between two cars. One has high acceleration and decides to coast along, while the other has lower rate of acceleration, but maintains it for longer.

Man it feels late. I'm just blabbering along now with no real point. Not even sure if, when I read this in the morning, it will make any sense.

Badger, I hope I'm not detracting all too much from your original intent...but I suspect I am.

Dave
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http://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/articles/tutorials

Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2013, 07:52:49 am »
  Good post Dave, sometimes my explanations are not that clear, I thought yours was great.

Offline adb

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2013, 10:48:12 am »
My question to "adb" on the other thread, after discussing this issue, was, "why ever have parallel limbs then?".  He basically said, "you never need to". 

But it makes sense to me that you may NEED to have the outer limbs bending on some bow in order to get the DRAW LENGTH that you want out of, say, a shorter bow.  So if that whole limb is bending alot, vs. the pyramid that is narrowing and therefore should NOT be bending as much there (the outer), it may need to be wide in the outer in order to be bending if, for example, it was an inferior species or inferior piece of wood.  Capish?

No... I didn't say "you never need to"... I said I haven't made one in years. Big difference.

Don Case

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2013, 01:47:32 pm »
Maybe I missed this but is circular tiller more preferred than elliptical or does it depend on design? I'm thinking that if the inner limbs are stiffer(elliptical) that they should be thinned and the bow shortened.
Don

Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2013, 02:25:39 pm »
  Don, it just depends on what kind of bow you are building. The tiller shape should correspond with the front view of the bow.

Offline artcher1

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2013, 03:03:33 pm »
  Don, it just depends on what kind of bow you are building. The tiller shape should correspond with the front view of the bow.

Would not the side view more or less dictate the front view first Steve? Making it a requirement instead of a preference? For example, you wouldn't want to use a pyramid design on a highly reflexed (out of the handle) stave. Nor use a rectangular limb design for a deflexed stave...........Art

Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2013, 03:10:17 pm »
  Art, I waqsn't very clear, the front view should determine the thickess of the limbs at various points and how much bending they should do. The front view of the bow is subject to the type of side profile you are looking for.

Offline willie

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2013, 03:22:32 pm »
Badger

been followin the discussion with interest , and it seems that mass program is the most useful after the bow is bending and ready to be put on the tiller tree. Most of my difficulties as a newbie have been from trying to brace and pull the bow to soon I think. How does a guy that has not built too many bows know how much to reduce the stave before pulling it to hard? Is there an amount of deflection with a long string that should be reached before trying to brace? can yhe program help during the floor tiller stage?

willie