Author Topic: Excel bow mass program  (Read 11807 times)

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Offline Badger

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Excel bow mass program
« on: December 05, 2013, 01:42:42 pm »
  I had a few requests for the bow mass program on excel

  The Program was written by Dave ( Aussie Yeowman) after he read my chapter.

 The program only asks a few basic questions and then there are a few tricks one need to know to generate the proper answers. I just started this thread to go over it with the ones that get the download.

 My Email is Badger5149@aol.com    I will send it to anyone who e mails me.

Offline Jodocus

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 02:16:08 pm »
I have that, forgot where I got it. It's great, before, I had to paper pencil it. I can recommend it to anyone.
Don't shoot!

Don Case

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 02:20:28 pm »
After a quick look I'm assuming I need to read TBB4 first?

Offline Onebowonder

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 02:22:16 pm »
I'm not entirely certain that I'm thsmart enuf tu understand all the stuff this little gizmo is telling me, but I'm all ears!

OneBow

Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 03:35:17 pm »
I'm not entirely certain that I'm thsmart enuf tu understand all the stuff this little gizmo is telling me, but I'm all ears!

OneBow


  It would help but we can cover the basics right here. going to weight for a few more guys to get it. Then I will start expaling it. Questions would be helpful.

Don Case

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 03:51:08 pm »
I need the basic premise first, I'm not sure what we are doing. But I can wait. I'm not antsy or anything, no rush >:D
Really, wait for more people
Don

Offline echatham

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 03:58:49 pm »
haha I'm with Don!  just what are we talking about anyway?  :laugh: im assuming... that it involves strategically placing the mass of a bow (limb width and thickness) to obtain the desired draw weight using the least mass, which would mean optimum performance?  something along those lines?

Offline echatham

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 04:05:57 pm »
got it.  Thanks!

Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 05:35:18 pm »
Help those of us out who haven't earned their bowyer IQ yet...  ::)

Thats exactly the question that started me on the mass priniciple. 1st of all I am a backyard bow builder and not a geek by any stretch of the imagination. I do everything the hardway by actually building bows and then looking for patterns.

     The first thing I had to do was develop some very basic common sense" bow logic" taking into consideration a few givens. The most important is that wood only has 1 correct thickness and it will be different on every bow we build. The challenge is to find and be able to express working techniques that will allow us to ge close to this perfect number on every bow we build. Obviously we are not going to do bend tests and calculations that are way above my head anyway.

    The most common denominator I found that best predicts both the demensions and the proper tiller is mass. It is always good to think of thickness as how far a bow can bend and width as controlloing how far it will bend. If you have to reread that and think about it do so, it is an important basic piece of info that is good to drill into our heads.
 
   When we bend something we will always create a radius, the radius may not be the same for the entire length of the limb and certainly the radius wont always be the same for different bows. working with the most elastic woods we have the inside radius needs to be less than 1% smaller than the outside radius, most woods are about 25% less than that. This is just something to keep in mind when you see a narrower section of the bow that is thicker but bending more than a wider thinner part of the bow. You know it just aint right. You don't have to figure anything here just keep it in mind.

   Bow logic tells you that if you have paralell limbs it could only be for one reason and that is you want the outer limb to bend more than the inner limb giving you an eliptical tiller shape. Bow logic will alos tell you that if you have a tapered limb the bow should bend at least equally and the thickess should be about the same. Theoreticaly you could build a bow at one specific thickness and then tiller it completely from the sides for a nice round tiller.

    Nearly all the woods we work with are going to fall into the specific gravity range of somehwhere between 50 and 100, the great majority of those will be between 60 and 80. The majority of the bow we build are going to be between about 45# and 65#. This is where I feel the mass principle is most accurate.

     The mass principle can be very valuable in determining how to execute a particular design for instance. You may want to build a hickory backed ipe english longbow. You want it 6ft long but you only want it to be 50#. You don't want the bow so narrow that it is uncomfortable to shoot just so you can make mass, so what you do is modify the tiller shape until it is the right mass at the width you feel will be comfortable. Lets say for instance you have roughed the bow out and got it bending. it feels like a 100# still but is bending. You weigh the bow and find out it is 6 oz too heavy to hit your target mass and you know only about 2 oz more wood will come off to make your weight. You go the the program and start adding length to the handle and fade number. If you add 4 then you will use just a slightly elyptical tiller, if you add 8 you will use a full elyptical tiller, if you add 12" it will be whip tillered. They should perform pretty well if built like this and not have handshock.

     Say you are working on an American longbow with parallel limbs most of the way down. You keep in mind the weight of the wood when you rough it out, for mid 60 bows for intance you might figure 1 3/8 for osage as a starting point 1/1/2 for locust and 2" for a lot of the white woods, + or minus depending on the density of the specimen. You simply rough out the bow, get it bending and then check the mass weight. Figure you have at least a couple more ounces comming off just to make weight so if you are within 2 or 3 ounces you just keep tillering the belly as you get closer you can adjust the width a little at a time or more to adjust for mass weight and fine tuning tiller.

    The secret is knowing how to do the input, modify the length of handle and fade input to accomadate your tiller shape. If you want circular limbs use the exact measurement of your handle and fades if you want elyptical then add 2 or more inches depending on how extreme you are going.

    If your tips are stiff say for six inches you may want to use a draw lenght figure 1 or 2 inches longer than you are actually going to draw it. If the tips are stiff for 10" you may want to use a figure 2 or 4" longer than your actual draw.
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Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 05:37:17 pm »
got it.  Thanks!

  Not really the least mass, you need ample mass but in the right places. My bows are heavier than they ever have been but are performing better and are more durable than they were when I was just making them as skinny as I could.

Offline steve b.

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 06:44:48 pm »
Quote
Bow logic tells you that if you have paralell limbs it could only be for one reason and that is you want the outer limb to bend more than the inner limb giving you an eliptical tiller shape. Bow logic will alos tell you that if you have a tapered limb the bow should bend at least equally and the thickess should be about the same. Theoreticaly you could build a bow at one specific thickness and then tiller it completely from the sides for a nice round tiller.


Ok, finally.  I've been asking this question on other threads and not getting answers.  Badger, would you deal with my question?:

In vol.4 theres a hand drawing of limb profiles and proper tiller of each.  Maybe I'm confused about eliptical vs. circular tiller.  Eliptical to me is like the curve of an egg.  Circular is like, well a circle.  So the outer limb on a circle is bending more than with the eliptical?  And if its bending more than it should be wider--wider as in parallel?  So fully parallel should be fully circular and pyramid would be more egg shaped, with the wide part of the egg on the handle end?  That's actually what the hand drawing in the book shows but the actual description says the opposite.  Hence my confusion.  thanks!

Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 06:56:05 pm »
I guess it depends which way you lay the egg, parallel should bend more as it nears the tip.

Offline echatham

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 07:01:26 pm »
Im confused... When you say parallel you mean constant width right?  Wouldnt that be bending more out of the fades and stiff at the tips?

Offline Badger

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 07:07:39 pm »
  I will tell you why that is not logical, your goal is equal stress, you only have one correct limb thckness at any given point in the limb and you want equal strain. If the bow bends the same it will be thinner at the outer edge of the parallel but not quite as strained, in order to be equally strained for it's thinner thickness it has to bend a tad more.

Offline echatham

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Re: Excel bow mass program
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 07:16:08 pm »
Ahhhh... So you are saying that if you had a parallel limb... You would NEED it to bend more near the tips  in order for there to be equal stress.  And a perfectly circular tiller would only be correct in a pyramid design.... So you use this mass principal to determine the correct tiller shape for a given limb profile?  Am i on the right track of what you are saying?  Cant wait to read your chapter.  This is intriguing stuff!