Native American Projectile Evolution

Main Discussion Area > Flintknapping

<< < (5/6) > >>

ekalavya:
suppose one finds a 25 grain broadhead , probably made by a long forgotten
civilization .... there is a chance to think of it just merely as waste ,
but it could as well been mounted on a blow gun dart ...

i found such triangular pieces of a black hard stone ... probably basalt
... and some of other rocks ... which just needed a proper sharpening
to be useful ....
(it works , because i tried that out ... and yes , i could have done better)

of course in evolution one first starts with something some found in nature
... a sharp teeth ... a stone split looking like that ... and then man made refining ...

there are evolution of so called "unlogical" taboos as well ...
and this could explain why arrows were decorated or crasted ... why
certain kind of arrowheads evolved and the feathers of some birds were taboo
or forbidden or why some arrowheads were made of bones

even today some US states have laws on arrowheads right now in the 21st century ...
well, i dare not call this a taboo , but maybe they will call it that in 10 000 years

also not being allowed to kill an animal with bow and arrow in some european countries
is a modern taboo or the prohibition of the blowgun for hunting and even recreational use in
california

AncientTech:

--- Quote from: Zuma on November 10, 2015, 04:29:15 pm ---Ben
Could you do me a favor and see if you can find Tony Bakers Clovis C14
timeline paper. It's a great resource and it would show us where to look
up sites chronologically. It has every site location and dates available to him.
I know I found it a couple years ago. It may be in a PDF file.
I can't open them. Or we could wing it. But I would like very much to stay
with Paleo before moving on to the Archaic. For clarity. Oh BTW Galt is know
as a long time Clovis settlement. Long time. lol
Thanks Zuma

--- End quote ---

Hello Zuma,

Sorry for the delay. I found this:

Clovis First / Pre-Clovis Problem -- Revisited 2004

Appendix
C-14 Dates

Tony Baker
September 15, 2004

http://www.ele.net/art_folsom/pre-clovis_2004/c14appendix.htm

Sample #

Complex/
Tradition

Site

Calendar Date
+1 sd *

C14 date

Lab #

Source

1 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15792-16381 13390 +130 IVIC-668 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
2 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15792-16381 13390 +130 IVIC-662 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
3 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15523-16169 13180 +130 IVIC-671 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
4 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15459-16123 13130 +130 IVIC-663 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
5 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 15257-15959 12980 +85 SI-3316 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
6 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14530-16082 13000 +200 Birm-802 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
7 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14456-16135 13010 +280 IVIC-191-1 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
8 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14455-16092 12990 +260 IVIC-670 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
9 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14395-15682 12770 +120 IVIC-669 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
10 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14376-15624 12730 +120 IVIC-664 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
11 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14345-15543 12660 +120 IVIC-660 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
12 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14328-15502 12620 +120 IVIC-661 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56
13 El Jobo Taima-Taima, Venezula 14304-15467 12580 +150 IVIC-627 Bryan and Gruhn 1979:56

14 Clovis Paleo Crossing, OH 13842-14983 12150 +75 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
15 Clovis Big Eddy, MO 13636-14094 11900 +80 oldest date Haynes 2002:12
16 Clovis Aubrey, TX 13418-13808 11570 +70 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
17 Clovis Blackwater Locality #1, NM 12998-13753 11300 +240 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
18 Clovis Colby, WY 13000-13408 11200 +200 RL-392 Frison 1991:25
19 Clovis Dent, CO 12425-13839 11200 +500 I-622 Frison 1991:25

20 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13017-13332 11200 +40 Beta-159914 Rasic 2003:24
21 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13017-13332 11200 +40 Beta-133393 Rasic 2003:24
22 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13003-13334 11180 +80 Beta-122322 Rasic 2003:24

23 Clovis Blackwater Locality #1, NM 12878-13453 11130 +290 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
24 Clovis Lange-Ferguson, SD 12964-13342 11140 +140 AA-905 Frison 1991:25
25 Clovis Vail, ME 12918-13338 11120 +180 oldest date Haynes 2002:13

26 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13004-13186 11160 +40 Beta-159915 Rasic 2003:24
27 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 13004-13160 11120 +40 Beta-159913 Rasic 2003:24
28 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 12978-13176 11110 +80 Beta-122323 Rasic 2003:24

29 Clovis Whipple, NH 12674-13427 11050 +300 avg. of several Haynes 2002:13
30 Clovis Domebo, OK 12842-13381 11040 +250 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
31 Clovis Paleo Crossing, OH 12928-13163 11060 +120 AA-8250-C Haynes 2002:12
32 Clovis Paleo Crossing, OH 12918-13137 10980 +110 AA-8250-E Haynes 2002:12
33 Clovis Sheriden Pit, OH 12914-13131 10970 +70 oldest date Haynes 2002:13
34 Clovis Anzick, MT 12886-13129 10940 +90 AA-2981 Frison 1991:25
35 Clovis Shawnee Minisink, PA 12886-13129 10940 +90 Haynes 2002:12
36 Clovis Domebo, OK 12686-13154 10940 +180 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
37 Clovis Lehner, AZ 12881-13119 10930 +40 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
38 Clovis Murry Springs, AZ 12857-13114 10900 +50 avg. of several Haynes 2002:12
39 Clovis Shawnee Minisink, PA 12858-13111 10900 +40 Haynes 2002:12
40 Clovis Cactus Hill, VA 12436-13183 10920 +250 Haynes 2002:12
41 Clovis Colby, WY 12667-13123 10864 +141 SMU-254 Frison 1991:25
42 Clovis Anzick, MT 12661-12997 10820 +100 AA-2979 Frison 1991:25
43 Clovis Paleo Crossing, OH 12433-13119 10800 +185 AA-8250-D Haynes 2002:12
44 Clovis Domebo, OK 12421-13138 10820 +230 average of several Haynes 2002:12

45 El Jobo El Vano, Venezuela 12639-12911 10710 +60 B-95602 Jaimes 1998:25
46 Clovis Dent, CO 12636-12899 10690 +50 average of several Haynes 2002:12
47 Clovis Anzick, MT 12441-12939 10710 +100 AA-2980 Frison 1991:25
48 Clovis Sheaman, WY 12427-12913 10690 +105 Beta-25836 Frison 1991:25

49 Agate Basin Hell Gap, WY 11968-13424 10850 +500 I-167 Frison 1991:27

50 Clovis Debert, Nova Scotia 12371-12842 10590 +50 average of several Haynes 2002:12
51 Clovis Lange-Ferguson, SD 11698-13291 10730 +530 I-13104 Frison 1991:25
52 Clovis Shawnee Minisink, PA 12112-12990 10640 +290 average of several Haynes 2002:12
53 Clovis Sheriden Pit, OH 12176-12795 10470 +70 youngest date Haynes 2002:13
54 Clovis Johnson, TN 11161-13804 10700 +980 Haynes 2002:12

55 Agate Basin Allen, NE 11361-13147 10600 +620 Tx-6594 LaBelle 2004:Table 5.6

56 Clovis Whipple, NH 11703-12833 10430 +300 Haynes 2002:13

57 Agate Basin Agate Basin, WY 11309-12907 10430 +570 RL-557 Frison 1991:26

58 Clovis Big Eddy, MO 11703-12319 10260 +85 youngest date Haynes 2002:12

59 Agate Basin Allen, NE 11341-12623 10260 +360 Tx-6596 LaBelle 2004:Table 5.6

60 Clovis Templeton, CT 11264-12567 10190 +300 W-3931 Haynes 2002:13
61 Clovis Vail, ME 11123-12584 10040 +390 youngest date Haynes 2002:13

62 Agate Basin Brewster, WY 11172-11953 9990 +225 M-1131 Frison 1991:26

63 Sluiceway Irwin Sluiceway, AK 11301-11741 10060 +80 Beta-131336 Rasic 2003:24
64 Sluiceway Irwin Sluiceway, AK 11303-11691 10050 +70 Beta-134677 Rasic 2003:24
65 Sluiceway MIS-495, AK 11263-11554 10010 +40 Beta-165299 Rasic 2003:24
66 Sluiceway MIS-495, AK 11226-11336 9910 +40 Beta-165298 Rasic 2003:24
67 Sluiceway NR-5, AK 10430-11544 9640 +300 Beta-146116 Rasic 2003:24

68 Agate Basin Frazier, CO 10758-11178 9650 +130 SMU-31 Frison 1991:26

69 Sluiceway Irwin Sluiceway, AK 10740-11068 9550 +50 Beta-120696 Rasic 2003:24
70 Sluiceway NR-5, AK 10703-11071 9550 +60 Beta-146117 Rasic 2003:24

71 Agate Basin Agate Basin, WY 10692-11091 9550 +130 SMU-32 LaBelle 2004:Table 5.6

72 Clovis Whipple, NH 9871-11535 9400 +500 Haynes 2002:13

73 Agate Basin Brewster, WY 9918-11202 9350 +450 O-1252 Frison 1991:26

74 Sluiceway Tuluaq Hill, AK 8658-8980 7950 +40 Beta-133394 Rasic 2003:24

* Calendar dates calculated by author using CALIB REV4.4.2 (Stuiver and Reimer 1993:215-230).

Zuma:
No problem Ben,
Give me a bit to digest it all. It's a whopper.
Thank you very much.
Zuma

AncientTech:
Zuma, I think it is worth comparing the Paijan point to the alleged "El Jobo" point of Monteverde, and comparing the alleged "El Jobo" point of Monteverde to the rest of the El Jobo points found at Taima Taima, and in Venezuela.

Then, note the relationship of the Paijan to the fluted fishtail, and ask whether the fluted fishtail really could have been coeval with the "El Jobo".

I have thought about this for years.

Here is the so-called "El Jobo" from Monteverde:

http://www.ele.net/kunz/slide23.jpg

Compare this to the Paijan:

http://www.geocities.ws/mineria_region/punta_paijan.jpg

If the slender Paijan point was really used for fishing, then what does it say about the slender point found at Monte Verde? :o :o :o

I think if you pulled all of these dates - fluted fishtail, Paijan, El Jobo, MonteVerde - and factored them in to the other radiocarbon dates, it should be interesting. But, what is even more interesting, is the materials that different point types were made from.

Also, if the hypothesized function of the Paijan point has any relation to the finely chipped basalt point found at Montevideo, then I think that a maritime implication should be considered. Ever see the woodwork at Montevideo?

Ancient Tech

Zuma:
Ben, That's great
I was thinking just North American but didn't put that in
the title. No matter I agree with you 100 percent. :laugh:
That doesn't happen to often. lol Glad we can put our efforts
together.
Because if the C14 and stratified info is correct on
just Monte Verde it puts a really difficult wrinkle in the entire
morphology/evolution imo.
Really worth exploring before Clovis.
I want to put the data in a easy to read format etc.
But I sure would like to hear any and all ideas about Jobo
fluted stems/pre or contemporary. How or /do they mesh with
Haskett/Sluiceway etc.
Thanks again Zuma

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page

Go to full version