Main Discussion Area > Flintknapping

Native American Projectile Evolution

<< < (6/6)

AncientTech:

--- Quote from: Zuma on November 16, 2015, 10:06:11 am ---Ben, That's great
I was thinking just North American but didn't put that in
the title. No matter I agree with you 100 percent. :laugh:
That doesn't happen to often. lol Glad we can put our efforts
together.
Because if the C14 and stratified info is correct on
just Monte Verde it puts a really difficult wrinkle in the entire
morphology/evolution imo.
Really worth exploring before Clovis.
I want to put the data in a easy to read format etc.
But I sure would like to hear any and all ideas about Jobo
fluted stems/pre or contemporary. How or /do they mesh with
Haskett/Sluiceway etc.
Thanks again Zuma

--- End quote ---

"But I sure would like to hear any and all ideas about Jobo
fluted stems/pre or contemporary. How or /do they mesh with
Haskett/Sluiceway etc."

There is a smaller fluted stemmed point, I think out of Colombia.  Regarding the Haskett, Sluiceway, El Jobo points, I am not convinced that they are related. 

I think that the Haskett could be a knife, rather than a projectile point.  Not counting MountVerde, the other El Jobo points that I have seen are intensely granular.  It is not the type of material that would lend itself to smooth, Clovis-like flakes.  In the same areas, when fluted fishtails are recovered, I believe that they are frequently of a much higher grade of material, such as agate, jasper, chert, etc.

As for the thick lanceolate bodied points, I am not convinced that the could not have been independently invented. 

Here is a good article (in Spanish) on a fluted fishtail site.  The author points out that the blades shown are either Clovis technology blades, or a descendant of Clovis.  My thought is that the initiation of the blade looked like the work of a wooden punch.  There is also a Clovis-like graver. 

http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/chungara/2015nahead/aop0415.pdf

What I wonder is whether there was a single precursor to both fluted fishtail points, and Clovis points.  I think the old model was that Clovis was early, and fluted fishtail was late.  But, I am not sure that they had many dates in when that model was put together. 

If I can dredge up enough fluted fishtail dates, I will incorporate them into this list. 

Zuma:
That's cool Ben. 8)
I have been hunting and having a few folks over to knap and
learn some neat stuff that Helena teaches. :)
First thing I want to do is take Tony's work that you found
and graph it in a east/west-north/south configuration.
It may reveal something. ???
Later, Zuma
Oh btw do you have any solid dates and locations on fluted stems?
Fell's Cave??? etc.

Zuma:
Come on Ben.
I could use your knowledge here.
Time well spent imho.

Here are Tony's Projectile types by dates of calendar years

El Jobo Dates  oldest 15,381  VenezulaTaima-Taima     
" "  "    ""          latest 12,639  Venezula El Vano

Clovis                        14,983
                                  9,871

Sluiceway                  13,017
                                  8,658

Agate Basin                13,424
                                   9,918



Here are Tony's sites by earliest dates with their locations.
 Please bare in mind that these locations are just from Tony Baker's
work. A bit dated today because more sites have been found.
Perhaps we/I can add new locations and dates.
I see no directional linearity here??
But that does not mean that with more comprehensive site inclusions
direction cannot be found.
The list below is oldest location to latest.

Ohio
Missouri
Texas
New Mexico
North central Wyoming
Colorado
South Dakota
Maine
New Hampshire
Oklahoma
Ohio
South Western Montana
 Eastern Pennsylvania
Southern Arizona
South Eastern Virginia
              Nova Scotia
North Eastern Tennessee
Tempelton Connecticut

Here are the C14 dates Tony compiled.
By point type
Tony you da man!

Clovis
OH, Paleo Crossing 12,150+/- 75   2nd 11,060+/-120 10,980+/-110
Mo Big Eddy           11,900+/-80
TX Aubrey               11,570+/-70
NM Blackwater        11,300+/-240  2nd 11,130+/-290
WY Colby               11,200+/-200  2nd 10,864+/-141
Co Dent                  11,200+/-500
SD Lange Ferguson 11,140+/-140  2nd 10,730+/-50
ME Vail                   11,120+/-180  2nd10,040+/-390
NH Wipple               11,050+/-300  2nd 10,430+/-300 3rd 9400+/-500
OK Domebo             11,040+/-250 2nd 10,940+/-180
OH Sheriden Pit       10,970+/-70
MT Anzick               10,940+/-90   2nd10,820+/-100
PA ShawneeMinisink 10,940+/-90  2nd 10,900+/-40
AZ Lehner                 10,930+/-40
AZ Murry Springs       10,900+/-50
VA Cactus Hill           10,920+/-250
Nova Scotia Debert     10,590+/-50
TN Johnson                10,700+/-980
CT Tempelton             10,190+/-300 

Agate Basin
WY Hell Gap               10,850+/-500  2nd 10,430+/-570
WY Bewster                  9,990+/-225  2nd  9,350+/-450
WY Agate Basin            9,550+/-130
NE  Allen                    10,600+/-620  2nd  10,260+/-360

Alaska Sluiceway                   11,200--7950
CO  Frazier                   9,650+/-130

Yeah it's a bit much. But better to try and fail than not try.
Zuma

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[*] Previous page