Author Topic: Balance in tillering  (Read 8911 times)

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Offline burchett.donald

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Balance in tillering
« on: February 04, 2018, 03:37:10 am »
   Folks, so many times I have heard and used the phrase " balanced in hand " while commenting on some ones full draw post...This is not talked about much and was hoping to open a discussion...Pretty tiller's are not always balanced in your shooting hand (your fulcrum)...I have here what I thought was money and once I took pictures I realized the back of the handle and upper limb was leaning towards me, I could feel it slightly...In other words everything changed off the tree in my hand...These pics are years old and some have seen them before, but it's what I found for this topic...Please feel free to give your input on balance and it's importance during tiller...Tillering the last few inches or pounds in hand... This is something that a "new bowyer" might gain from...

PIC #1   Bow rocking in hand as I draw, upper limb to heavy off tree...

PIC #2   Balance corrected by scraping upper center...
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

Offline burchett.donald

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 03:48:15 am »
    Please post pics if you have any from a tillering sequence or correction and feel free to explain your technique and thoughts on a balanced tiller...Soooo many variables....
                                                                                                            Don
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

Offline simson

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 03:58:16 am »
Don, the limb leaning towards you is the stiffer limb.
I personally don't like the tiller tree much, mostly I use for weight measrements.
I find it is a good improvemnet on  a tiller tree to use a piece of a belt with a hook instead of a wooden saddle. Much more adequate to the archers hand. At least the last stadium of tillering I do watching the bend in a mirror.
Simon
Bavaria, Germany

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2018, 07:07:11 am »
I think good dynamic balance creates an inherently tuned bow, better arrow flight, less hand shock, more efficiency, predictability, stability, tiller less likely to shift, and more. I don't understand why folks work on their bows with disregard to it... like they don't even want to know. Ignorance is bliss I guess  ;) And I don't understand why folks assess and adjust the relative limb strength of their bows while pulling the string from the middle of the handle when it's impossible to shoot it that way. Think it's easier? It's not. Not with all considered.

Neither do I understand why others would adjust limb strength to achieve a predetermined measurement at brace and assume it will act a certain way. These are wooden bows with inherent irregularities, some of which are visible and some are not. We should adjust them according to how they act as they're drawn relative to our personal fulcrums, not according to how they look laying braced on the bench.

I don't wait until the last few inches to adjust dynamic balance. I begin watching it from the first light tugs of the string while on the tree. The sooner the limbs are balanced in regards to the shooter's fulcrums the better in my opinion. I don't wait until later in the tillering so I can try to feel it, or take pictures to study, or stand in front of a mirror to inspect it. The first time I draw a bow by hand I fully expect it to be 100% balanced. I know it will be because I made it that way from the beginning. I also know right where the arrow needs to be placed on the string from the first shot.... because I made it that way. That determination was made before the string was tugged on for the first time. That arrow position determined where the nock point goes, where the string hand goes, and where the hook goes to pull it on the tree. Creating optimal limb harmony relative to our fulcrums assures good arrow flight from them as a matter of consequence... among other good things.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 07:12:41 am »
   Folks, so many times I have heard and used the phrase " balanced in hand " while commenting on some ones full draw post...This is not talked about much and was hoping to open a discussion...Pretty tiller's are not always balanced in your shooting hand (your fulcrum)...I have here what I thought was money and once I took pictures I realized the back of the handle and upper limb was leaning towards me, I could feel it slightly...In other words everything changed off the tree in my hand...These pics are years old and some have seen them before, but it's what I found for this topic...Please feel free to give your input on balance and it's importance during tiller...Tillering the last few inches or pounds in hand... This is something that a "new bowyer" might gain from...

PIC #1   Bow rocking in hand as I draw, upper limb to heavy off tree...

PIC #2   Balance corrected by scraping upper center...

That is one of the reasons I never use a T tree.  It's important to feel what the bow is trying to tell you.
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

Marc@Ironwoodbowyer.com

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2018, 07:22:48 am »
I hadn't used a tree for a long time. But, the last few bows I have been using it more. I started using it early on until Im 10-15# shy of my target. If a fella exercises a bow properly during a build and you dont use a tree, you will have hundreds and hundreds of draws in in a few hours. My shoulders started to take a beating doing it that way. I like to stop early on the tree so I can balance it out. Those two pics show a bow bending evenly and a bow bending evenly and balanced, great example Don. I'm sure most of us have made that 7-8 scrape adjustment on one limb and suddenly the bow feels like the nicest bow you've made. Thats when the light bulb goes on and you realize how important perfect balance is, and how close you can be with just a few scrapes.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 07:23:11 am »
I agree with Jeff, Don.

Except we tiller a bit differently. I tiller from the center. He tillers from where he grips the string.
For me nothing approximates how I hold the bow so I finish tillering with bow in hand. I have my daughter or wife take some digi pics.

If you were on a rope and pulley your contact point with the bow string would slide towards the stronger limb.

When I take the stave off the rope and pulley I check the balance of the limbs with short pulls and then when I achieve full draw I check at full draw in the hand.

Jawge


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If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline JWMALONE

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 07:33:50 am »
Great topic Don, especially for a newbie like myself. I use the tree, pics, mirrors and a gizmo. I know what its supposed to feel like but don't have the experience, so this has worked till now to help me understand how and where to remove wood to get a particular result from the limb. I'm also new to long bows, always shot glass recurves. But it would seem most logical to listen to what the stave is telling you while its in your hand not the tree.
Red Oak its the gateway wood!

Offline Badger

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 07:42:48 am »
  I use a belt strap on my tree so it can move, I pull down with my hook just above the top of my hand and slightly below the arrow pass. The last 4" of tiller I mostly do holding the bow in hand. I like to nock the arrow about 1/4" high. Most of the time about 1/8" positive tiller will give you a good balance in hand and the right nocking point for the arrow.

Offline burchett.donald

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 08:05:08 am »
      Thanks, for all your input guy's, this is going to help some folks... (=)

 As stated earlier, those pics were old and I don't use that technique anymore, used as an example...I pull from a rounded wooden cradle at my known fulcrum point and a leather strap simulating my fingers...
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                              Don
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 08:32:35 am by burchett.donald »
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

Offline burchett.donald

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 08:13:47 am »
   Steve,
             I was thinking about going to a belt instead of the rounded cradle...I'm like Chris, I probably pull mine 20 or 25 times between adjustments...What does your belt look like, I can slip my bow on and off so quickly now....
                           Don
                                                                                                                 
   
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

Offline Badger

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 08:18:12 am »
   I mainly like the strap because I have been doing a lot Heavy elbs lately with reflex and they are bad about flipping over when on the long string. The strap makes them a bit easier to handle and still represents a hand hold pretty well.

Offline burchett.donald

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2018, 08:40:38 am »
 JW,
        You are correct, the tree is only a tool...In the end your bow hand fulcrum point will depict your final result....I'm to old to pull my bow only by hand between scrapes...I use a pulley system with a scale attached so I can see my weight during exercise and final draw length...
                                                                                                             Don
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

Offline burchett.donald

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2018, 08:50:32 am »
   If you look real close you will see a light pencil mark "on the bow" at the center of the rounded cradle...The bow is not centered on the cradle...The mark is a predetermined fulcrum where my middle finger wraps around the handle...Also the leather 3 finger simulator is at a predetermined point...This allows me to take it very close to "my" in hand finished tiller...
                                                                                                    Don
                                                                                               
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

Offline DC

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Re: Balance in tillering
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2018, 09:36:46 am »
How do determine where the "fulcrum" is? Some people shoot high wrist and some low. Do you just feel where the pressure is on your hand?