Author Topic: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?  (Read 394 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,663
how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« on: September 14, 2020, 09:33:59 pm »
I realize this is an open ended kind of question, but please bear with me for a moment.
I have heard it said a winning shot needs a clean release. logically, the sooner the arrow stabilizes, the better chance it has to retain velocity for a longer flight. 

Can anyone venture an opinion about how far off the bow this needs to happen? My thought is to test some arrows at a limited distance. I realize there are arrow flight qualities that need to be considered at the apex of the flight  (minimum velocity?), but that is not what I wish to examine in these tests. 
theres lots to learn about spine, release and fletching that I think can be learned at closer ranges.
thanks
(I know, the sooner the better is best of course. but I am hoping to quantify things a bit)

Offline sleek

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,226
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2020, 11:02:25 pm »
Honestly it's my understanding that the arrow needs to leave the bow clean, meaning, no stabilization is needed, because it leaves the bow stable. If it requires stabilization through flight, the act if stabilization bleeds energy from the arrow and it looses speed. Foot bows I have seen have paper at the end of it the arrow shoots through to determine if it left the bow clean or not.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline medicinewheel

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,532
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 04:25:41 am »
A winning shot leaves the bow in smooth flight.
Frank from Germany...

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,161
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 10:12:48 am »
I saw a picture of Alans foot bow and it has a paper thing mounted about 2-3" from the back of the bow. There was also a picture of a nice clean hole in the paper but I can't fund that.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMnOPN2hyhCRcR9ewoopRwkHRR8J2C5haJ3HRgA10LD81_rrtHhNBWy5ZBx_pgSFw/photo/AF1QipO8B_1guYHJFMhV-4g-BQkfGd3OIh1v9tqMJelm?key=dWR3SEFDRi1IcEhjTGFETjBuNlBmX05keXFidzB3
Vancouver Island
If you don't have any questions you must not be paying attention.

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,663
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 12:00:39 pm »
Quote
Honestly it's my understanding that the arrow needs to leave the bow clean,
Quote
Honestly it's my understanding that the arrow needs to leave the bow clean,

Yes of course, as clean as possible. But arrows still flex/paradox, and there must be a tradeoff between skinny and how much flexing can be tolerated.

Part of this set up will be useful to practice good releases. I hope to not only test the speed of the arrow in front of the bow, but also down range.

Offline avcase

  • Member
  • Posts: 401
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 05:48:53 pm »
There can be two things happening with the arrow at release. There may be some arrow vibration which takes awhile to settle down, and there may be some initial arrow misalignment which is a tuning issue that takes awhile to settle down.  Of course, both are going to have negative impact on maintaining downrange speed. 

Correction of arrow misalignment:
Some arrows will correct for this much quicker than others. The higher the aerodynamic stability, the quicker the arrow will realign itself to its direction of travel. So things like bigger fletching and fletching moved as close to the nock as possible should help. More arrow mass toward the front will help.

The distribution of mass will affect how quickly the arrow responds to correction from the fletches. Mass concentrated at either end of the arrow will slow down the response of the arrow. So a light point and light nock allow the arrow to quickly react and realign itself. This contradicts some of the advantage of having more weight concentrated in the point.

Little or no arrow spin should help the arrow realign itself quicker.

Correction of vibration:
Long and flexible will have more disruptive lower amplitude vibration than Short and stiff arrows. Some materials dampen vibration better than others. I believe uneven mass distribution from barrel-shape arrow should quiet down quicker than a straight shaft. Spin rate may be a factor.

I donít know if this helps.

Alan

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,161
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 06:55:32 pm »
How about center shot? Given a well tuned arrow on both does a center shot bow have an advantage?
Vancouver Island
If you don't have any questions you must not be paying attention.

Offline avcase

  • Member
  • Posts: 401
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 08:00:47 pm »
How about center shot? Given a well tuned arrow on both does a center shot bow have an advantage?

Yes, center shot has an advantage if the arrows are very stiff, short, and shot with a release. Finger release is Where it gets complicated.

Some horn bow flight archers are rediscovering the techniques to shoot some very light spine arrows cleanly out of heavy bows by shooting off the opposite side while imparting a torque to the bow handle. This would have to be perfectly executed in order to counteract the usual big arrow deflection of a finger release.

Alan

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,663
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2020, 08:13:06 pm »
Quote
I donít know if this helps.
Alan, yes, it helps define the issues that need to be considered.

Do you think a 10% velocity loss in the first 50 yards would knock a shot out of the competition?

Offline Badger

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,819
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2020, 09:51:24 am »
Quote
I donít know if this helps.
Alan, yes, it helps define the issues that need to be considered.

Do you think a 10% velocity loss in the first 50 yards would knock a shot out of the competition?

  I would think that 10% would be excellent

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,161
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2020, 10:14:33 am »
I was doing some testing the other day. As I've said before with my shooting machine the same bow/arrow combo will put the arrow in the same hole just about every time. But this day I was testing two bows of comparable DW so I was using the same arrow. The second bow would also put the arrow in the same hole every time but it was a different hole. One bow would shoot consistently 3" to the right. My machine holds the bows horizontally so to the right is actually up. Do you think this would be a nock point thing? Is nock point the only thing that affects the up/ down flight. My arrows only fly about 8' so 3" is considerable.
Vancouver Island
If you don't have any questions you must not be paying attention.

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,663
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2020, 11:33:30 am »
3" seems like a lot if the target is only 8 feet away.
maybe there is a way to tell how straight the arrow is leaving the bow     
I recall you had problems breaking arrows at one time
do you have any rests you could compare to shooting off the shelf?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 11:38:12 am by willie »

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,161
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 12:33:24 pm »
I'm thinking it may be the way the bow sits in the saddle. I've never been happy with my saddle. Because there is no "finger friction" the string can slide a bit on the release so sometimes I notice the bow torqueing. Maybe one limb is too strong. Most of these bows don't have the nock point tied in. I should set a nock point in the vice and then make sure the bow is staying in position.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 12:37:58 pm by DC »
Vancouver Island
If you don't have any questions you must not be paying attention.

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,663
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2020, 05:18:41 pm »
Quote
Most of these bows don't have the nock point tied in

string nocks for either side of the arrow nock seem important


Quote
I should set a nock point in the vice and then make sure the bow is staying in position

why the vice and not the shelf of the bow?


so just curious, I cannot recall what you changed to keep from breaking arrows?

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,161
Re: how quick does a winning shot settle into smooth flight?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2020, 05:24:12 pm »
I meant set the bow in the vice and use a string square to tie some nock, sorry.

I just hung the target bag so it's free to swing. That seemed to solve it.
Vancouver Island
If you don't have any questions you must not be paying attention.