Looking for a 400 yard shot

[Del the cat]

I've added more info and another pic to this blog post:-
https://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/2025/09/wooden-flight-bow-arrows.html
Del

Thanks for  showing us more about your process.
looking at turkish flight arrows I see they were barrelled, I suppose to lighten the arrows where the stiffness was not needed on the outer thirds .
If stiffness in the center third can be accomplished by compressing the wood, one could "forge" an arrow of varying density by compressing a blank shaped like a long diamond.
in other words, an arrow of same diameter from end to end having lighter ends but stiffer midsection

It's interesting that Harry Drake never worried about spine. I think stiffness is only really an issue if the arrow is flexing, and a decent shoot through bow correctly set up, with a mechanical (or flipper) release, shouldn't have much arrow flex.
It reminds me of some bloke on an archery forum telling me that spine mattered in crossbow bolts, I said it didn't, he tried to call me out, so I made a bolt with a paper tube shaft and shot it from a 50# bow pistol! It was fine!
If you can barrel and arrow to 5mm at each end, is it better if it is 5mm all the way along. I'm beginning to think that finding the optimum weight arrow for the bow (at minimum diameter) is the critical factor (that, and small wafer thin fletchings).
Obviously on an ELB (or warbow) barrelling to get the stiffness in the right place is vital as the arrow has to flex.
Del
(All just my opinion of course)

[Badger]

   I agree Del, when the arrow needs to flex spine is critical, on a center shot bow there really is no need to flex. One thing that has always puzzled me is how critical the spine is on an atlatl dart. If they are too stiff, they just dive bomb.

[willie]

   I agree Del, when the arrow needs to flex spine is critical, on a center shot bow there really is no need to flex. One thing that has always puzzled me is how critical the spine is on an atlatl dart. If they are too stiff, they just dive bomb.

An atlatl dart that is too stiff needs to be thrown very hard to get going straight. The tail end of the dart needs to deflect easily because the nock is rotating  in a substantial arc due to the length of the throwing stick,  and if the dart is too stiff, it will rotate the entire dart around the fore and aft center of gravity. BTW, stiff darts tend to launch nose high, while it is a soft spined dart (or a dart that is thrown too hard), that dives towards the ground.

It's interesting that Harry Drake never worried about spine.

could this mean that Harry never worried about measuring spine or tried to make adjustments to his arrows based on spine measurements? He must have had other more important criteria when making arrows ie. weight, length or diameter. I am guessing he still must have appreciated as much stiffness as the materiel would give, once the other criteria was met?

If you can barrel and arrow to 5mm at each end, is it better if it is 5mm all the way along.

interesting question about whether a tapered/barreled arrow or a straight shaft makes much difference aerodynamically.  the maths of aerodynamics seem to be concerned with maximum diameter, at least with rockets and missles anyways as they seem to do well as cylinders
fuller diameters at the ends of arrows should make maintaining points and nocks easier tho, if not creating excess weight, but smaller max diameters in the mid section seem to be desirable for distance.

[Selfbowman]

Just an opinion from a guy that’s still looking for a flight record. I have broadhead records. It could be that once the diameter being wider in the center reduces the drag on the back half of the the arrow. Increasing distance. I would draw a pic if I could draw. The increased drag is only in the center of the arrow where spine is needed. Just a thought.

[sleek]

Just an opinion from a guy that’s still looking for a flight record. I have broadhead records. It could be that once the diameter being wider in the center reduces the drag on the back half of the the arrow. Increasing distance. I would draw a pic if I could draw. The increased drag is only in the center of the arrow where spine is needed. Just a thought.

You are pretty well correct. The barrel shap creats what called a Coanda effect, named after the guy who would rather have discovered it any other way than how he did. Its a boundary layer that sticks to a curved surface as it flows over it. You have no doubt noticed it when washing the back side of a spoon in the sink. When the angle of attack gets too high you get boundary layer separation and that causes a stall. When an arrow wobbles it can cause the fail of the arrow to stall if the paradox gets too strong in increase drag. So you do want that curve in the shaft and as little paradox as you can get away with.

[Badger]

  Most broadhead arrows are going to be pretty close to the proper spine. A 200-grain arrow can lose a big portion of its speed in the first 10 ft of the shot if the spine is not near perfect. The arrow has to come out of the bow straight and remain straight. Everyone talks about faster bows when they think of flight shooting. Any well-made bow can break any existing flight record with the right arrow. None of us were tuning our arrows. We just make up some arrows and hope for the best. English longbows are not particularly fast with light arrows, yet Josef shot 530 yards while practicing with an 88# bow. That gives us some idea what the potential is. If you look at the modern American longbow and all of the primitive records, none of them are anywhere near what they should be if a properly tuned arrow was paired with a fast bow. What they have in common is less-than-optimal wood arrows. In defense of my own history in the broadhead division the rule changes on fletching and arrow weight changes erased all the history of broadhead.

[willie]

   A 200-grain arrow can lose a big portion of its speed in the first 10 ft of the shot if the spine is not near perfect. The arrow has to come out of the bow straight and remain straight.

so if a lighter arrow is harder to launch without wobbles, then it becomes more important than ever to have an arrow design that tends to dampen its wobbles rather than flexing back and forth too long.  could reducing mass in the ends of the arrows help reduce the flexing?

[Badger]

 Almost every record I can think of recently that was broken using a wood arrow was broken with an arrow thought to be far too weak. Coming out sideways is what I think kills the arrow, not the flexing.

[willie]

Coming out sideways is what I think kills the arrow, not the flexing.

But it comes out sideways because it is too weak? maybe I am missing something or are you saying it is all in the release of the archer?

[Badger]

   Of course, the release and the knocking point are very important. But I am also saying that the spine is critical, and if an arrow is too stiff or too weak, it won't come out of the bow straight. A correct spine is important. Ivar Malde is probably the best authority on arrows and set up right now, he is at least the most knowledgeable one willing the share information. This past year, there were some big achievements with wood arrows, and I think it won't be long before that filters down into the primitive wood classes.

[mmattockx]

Almost every record I can think of recently that was broken using a wood arrow was broken with an arrow thought to be far too weak. Coming out sideways is what I think kills the arrow, not the flexing.

Not exactly the same thing, but the arrows used by Olympic archers are tapered both ends and they prefer the spine a bit on the weak side. This is considered to be more forgiving of a bad release by the archer. Perhaps your 'weak' flight arrows are doing a similar thing and are less affected by variation in the release and are giving better performance overall?


Mark

[willie]

arrows used by Olympic archers are tapered both ends and they prefer the spine a bit on the weak side. This is considered to be more forgiving of a bad release by the archer. Perhaps your 'weak' flight arrows are doing a similar thing and are less affected by variation in the release and are giving better performance overall?


Mark

or just tapered?
https://eastonarchery.com/2018/12/arrow-shaft-design-and-performance/

or forged-tapered with a straight blank to keep minimal FOC?

[mmattockx]

or just tapered?
https://eastonarchery.com/2018/12/arrow-shaft-design-and-performance/

or forged-tapered with a straight blank to keep minimal FOC?

The X10 is the arrow in question, which is a barrelled design.


Mark

[willie]

Hi Mark,

I was reading at Eastons site after seeing your post and thought to pass along an interesting article that also explained the benifits of a tapered shaft in addition to a barrelled one.

My reference to forged was more directed to Dels experiments with compressed wood and the forgewood process mentioned up thread. I believe some of the original forgewood shafts were straight diameter shafts that were compressed from a tapered blank, producing a finished shaft with FOC.

For flight use, one may not want FOC, but may want a tapered tail end instead. Perhaps a setup like Dels for forging wood could turn out something like that.