Author Topic: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"  (Read 5449 times)

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Offline mmattockx

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Re: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2025, 12:33:19 pm »
      You are wrong the best predictor of speed over an assortment of different weight arrows is virtual mass, which is based on stored energy and efficiency. The lower the virtual mass the less drop in ke as arrows get lighter.

I assure you that the laws of physics say what I wrote is 100% correct. The only question is how much the efficiency (as defined by what percentage of the stored energy is transferred into the arrow) changes between the two arrows.

Is there somewhere that explains how you calculate virtual mass?

I would also enjoy seeing OP test a few different arrow weights (if possible). It would make for an interesting experiment.


Mark

Offline willie

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Re: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2025, 01:04:55 pm »


Is there somewhere that explains how you calculate virtual mass?




Mark,
If this is the definition that Steve is referring to, it seems to be a derived unit of measure describing bows.
https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/hickman/archery-the-technical-side/klopsteg/physics-of-bows-and-arrows/virtual-mass-of-a-bow.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 2025, 01:10:27 am by willie »

Offline Badger

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Re: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2025, 01:31:41 pm »
   Virtual mass is easy to calculate. It helps if you know the stored energy but if you don't you can usually get it by shooting a few different weight arrows.
Here is how to calculate it. His bow shot 256 fps with a 463 grain arrow. You go to a KE chart and look it up It shows 67.39 ft pounds. Lets say I estimate the bow is storing 93% of draw force. So it would be 93% X draw weight ( 98# )  That would give me 91# of stored energy. So now I simply add enough imaginary weight to the arrow that we know the speed of which is 256 fps to give me 100% efficincy. On the icase if I add 160 grains to the 463 grain arrow and then check the ke at 256 fps it will give me about 91 Ft#. So to check speeds of arrows I have not shot simply add 160 grains to the arrow I want to the know the speed of. So if I want to know how fast a 320 grain arrow would be I add 160 to 320 and see what speed gives me 91 ft#. So 320 + 160 + 480. How fast would a 480 grain arrow have to be to get 91.  The answer would be 292 fps.

   I am guessing at the stored energy in this case because I only hvae 1 arrow sample. If I had two samples I could be a lot closer. A 250 grain arrow should do about 316 fps.

Offline mmattockx

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Re: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2025, 12:49:31 pm »
   Virtual mass is easy to calculate.

Thanks for that explanation. Your method is using the same basic math as I used (since the laws of physics are the same for everyone), but keeping the virtual mass the same over different arrow weights builds in a proportional change in efficiency on top of the basic physics equations solving for the velocity with efficiency unchanged.

I hope OP can do some testing to see how close it all works out.


Mark

Online Tuomo

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Re: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2025, 03:15:06 pm »
I will, of course, be back later!

Offline willie

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Re: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2025, 01:08:10 am »
Lets say I estimate the bow is storing 93% of draw force. So it would be 93% X draw weight ( 98# )  That would give me 91# of stored energy. So now I simply add enough imaginary weight to the arrow that we know the speed of which is 256 fps to give me 100% efficincy. On the icase if I add 160 grains to the 463 grain arrow and then check the ke at 256 fps it will give me about 91 Ft#.

A virtual mass (K) of 160 would put this bow above the top of the highest K curve on Klopstegs chart.

Have you ever tested a bow with lower virtual mass? If so, what did it calculate out at?

from the article quoted above


Offline Badger

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Re: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2025, 12:49:32 pm »
     
Very short bows will often have lower virtual mass figures. Tuomos bow was kind of exceptional with the speed he got. The short bows also store a lot less energy. The primary reason I liked to use virtual mass was to isolate hysteresis from vibration. Self bows will rarely, if ever, go along with virtual mass theory because the hysterisis caused by set is time sensitive and the faster the bow shoots the more the losses are from hysterisis. Glass bows on the other hand Will stick very close to VM projections but still trending slightly slower. I had an odd way of calculating stored energy and VM, most experts don't agree with it, but numbers seem to follow more reliable patterns. I would use an extremely heavy arrow to test the speed, maybe 2,000 grains, and then I would go to 1,000 grains, and then 500, 300, then 200. The 2,000 grains would almost always reflect about 95% efficiency so it was a good starting point. I no longer remember the exact process, but it was fairly simple, and I felt it gave me more useful information about the damage from set. Tuomos bow doesn't act like a bow with hysteresis. Isolating and identifying where losses in energy occur gives the bow maker more opportunity to improve.

Offline mmattockx

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Re: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2025, 02:27:48 pm »
Tuomos bow doesn't act like a bow with hysteresis.

I would suggest that is because it uses horn on the belly and it is not subject to the same hysteresis problems as wood.

We really need a like button on this forum, there has been some great info posted in this thread.


Mark

Offline Will B

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Re: Bamboo-maple-horn, 98#@28"
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2025, 05:05:09 pm »
Beautiful bow!  Outstanding craftsmanship. Thanks for posting the photos here