Author Topic: How much of a rabbit hole is this?  (Read 634 times)

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Offline WhistlingBadger

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How much of a rabbit hole is this?
« on: March 02, 2026, 08:01:10 pm »
Hey, all.  Considering investing in a black powder rifle.  I'd like something traditional, capable of taking elk and moose (.54?).

My question is, how steep is the learning curve for an experienced modern rifle/trad bow hunter?  How much gear is necessary?  How hard is this really to get into?  I have no idea.  But I'm a guy who likes to know how deep the water is before I jump off the cliff.   :-M
Thomas
Lander, Wyoming
Arise!  Kill, and eat!

Offline Pat B

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Re: How much of a rabbit hole is this?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2026, 08:21:56 pm »
When I started black powder hunting back in 1979 my rifle was a .50 TC Hawkins percussion and my kit consisted of 4 glass tubes with 90 gr of black powder, a box of pre-lubed maxi balls , a tin of primers, a small bottle of solvent and a few cleaning patches. Back then all my friends told me to get a real gun. I ended up killing my first deer, an 8 point with an 80 yard shot.
 I'm not a black expert but I think a .54 would be sufficient for elk not sure about moose.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: How much of a rabbit hole is this?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2026, 11:17:53 am »
A .54 is the best all round size for a variety of game. The next thing is whether you want to shoot round balls or conical bullets, a .54 round ball weighs around 225gr, bullets can weigh up to twice that, there are bunch of different bullet styles. A round ball is suitable for elk, a lot of guys hunt elk with a patched round ball. The neat thing about B/P is you can pump up the performance with a hotter powder load.

I have shot from 75 gr of powder up to 110gr of powder on deer with my.54, the 110 gr powder load was over kill with a punishing recoil so I use 75 gr now and kill every deer I shoot at but my ranges are 50 yards or less.

Then there is a choice of whether to shoot percussion or flint, I think it is best for beginners to get a percussion gun to cut their teeth on, flint can be finicky for new shooters, not so much after you gain the operational knowledge and a top quality lock. Cheaper factory guns have locks that can be made to perform well but they generally don't right out of the box.

Every B/P rifle out there has different personality on what will shoot well out of it and what won't, part of the fun is what we call "working up a load", which is varying the ball size, patch material thickness, patch lube and the grains of powder to turn your rifle into a tac driver. Once you find what your rifle likes you can shoot that same load forever and nothing will change.

That said; just about all B/P guns will shot a 6" group at 100 yards without load development, you can fine tune that down to 2" or less with some proper load development.

Used or new is the next thing to consider, new is nice but can be pricy, kits to build can save you some money if you are crafty but can be a nightmare if you are not. Kibler kits are the gold standard but you can expect to have at least $1500 in one of their a kits but they snap together with little work except for finishing the metal and wood. People love these kits and build one, sell it and buy another over and over. I have seen these finished kits for sale for parts cost up to about $500 more than parts cost if a pro gunsmith built it.

Go over to the M/L Forum and look at the classified section to get an idea of what is for sale and how things are priced, not much good stuff on there today but things sell quickly and the offerings change every day. Gunbroker sale prices are much higher.


Better yet, join the M/L forum and haunt the place like we do here, shooting, building, collecting, it is all there.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/

Currently Kibler only has a Hawken rifle in percussion now but are coming out with a plane jane rifle, what we call a "poor boy" soon. This will be a no frills rifle but will have the best parts in it that one can buy. A poor boy would be what your average farmer might carry in 1850, no buttplate, a simple trigger guard, no carving or other wood stock embellishment. 

The parts kits like Chambers or Pecatonica will take some serious gunsmithing skills, over 100 hours of work and only cost a couple hundred less than a Kibler. These companies offer all of their models in left or righthanded and a choice of flint or percussion, Kibler doesn't have left hand rifles at the present.

Now about used; Back when states started their first B/P only seasons in the 70s everyone bought a B/P gun, before B/P seasons in most states were buck only during deer season, killing a doe was considered shameful. Deer populations were getting out of hand, it was pretty slick move by the states to make B/P seasons either sex to condition hunters to start killing does. Those of us who rarely killed a buck were over joyed to be able to finally put some meat in the freezer.

Everyone bought a gun but not everybody knew that B/P was corrosive and didn't clean their rifles properly, they ended up with a lot of rusted and pitted barrels. Many of these guns are on the market today so that is the first thing to consider when buying used, what does the rifling in the barrel look like, was the gun well taken care of?

The cost of used; most of us bought Thompson Center rifles, these rifles were in production until 2007, they made several million of them so there are a lot of them still out there. I  have probably had 7 or 8 of them over the years, I currently have two Hawken rifles in percussion, one in .50 that I made from a kit and one in .54 that I made from random parts with a new Green Mountain Barrel, both are very solid guns. TC barrels are made to shoot either balls or bullets but a lot of experimenting is needed to see what ball or bullet shoots the best.

You can find these rifles for sale from $200 or less to the average price of around $400 for a really nice one. They come in .45, .50 and .54. The Hawken model is top of the line but the plainer Renegade is a fine rifle as well, I carried a percussion Renegade for 25 years until I went to flint, I found out that TCs flint locks were poorly designed and poor performers, their percussion locks were flawless.

Shooting; We all like to shoot real black powder in our rifles but it has to be ordered online in most cases, few gun stores carry it, the price of real B/P has almost doubled in the last 6 or 7 years to almost $30 a pound. You can shoot the substitutes like Pydrodex and Triple 7, lose powder not pellets, if you are shooting percussion, the subs work poorly in a flint lock. These subs are more corrosive than the real stuff but will cause you no problems if you clean your rifle properly. Real black powder comes in different sizes, 1F (course) for shotguns and cannons, 2F for 50cal and up, 3F for .45 and less and 4F (extra fine) for priming a flintlock pan. That said, you can shoot all but 4F in any rifle, some people shoot 3F in everything, even prime their flintlocks with it. 4F make for a pretty hot load and could be used but there are better options.

To shoot you need powder, balls, percussion caps, #11 in size, material to make patches, you can buy them precut or cut your own, patch lube, I am using rendered deer fat at the present. Lastly are cleaning accessories, what we call a cleaning jag that screws into your ramrod and is used to seat the ball while loading and hold a cleaning patch for barrel cleaning. Plain water is the best solvent to clean your barrel after shooting, I prefer it luke warm, very hot water will cause flash rusting in your barrel. After I clean with water and run a bunch of dry cleaning patches down the barrel to sop up the water, I give the barrel a squirt of WD-40 to absorb any residual water, dry that out and run a patch down the barrel with chainsaw bar oil on it before I put a gun up for storage, muzzle down to keep any oil from migrating toward the muzzle and not back in the breech/ percussion area. I cut my cleaning patches from 100% cotton baby blanket fleece from a fabric store. We generally use material called pillow ticking for ball patching, also from a fabric store, I currently use a very tough material called pocket drill that is used to making pockets for men's pants.

Before I load my stored rifle to shoot, I run a dry patch down the bore first to absorb any leftover oil then pop two caps on an empty barrel to burn out any oil that may be in the flash chamber. You will never have any misfires if you do this.

Sorry for the book, once I get started I can't stop. My other suggestion is to start watching you tube videos on loading, shooting and cleaning B/P guns, everyone does it a bit different but it all works.

I built this TC renegade from random parts, it has lock upgrade to a much better lock, I sold it to a friend now deceased, it has never been fired.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2026, 06:06:08 pm by Eric Krewson »

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: How much of a rabbit hole is this?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2026, 11:53:13 am »
Perhaps the above post should be made into a sticky for the curious.

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: How much of a rabbit hole is this?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2026, 11:28:29 pm »
Hey, all.  Considering investing in a black powder rifle.  I'd like something traditional, capable of taking elk and moose (.54?).

My question is, how steep is the learning curve for an experienced modern rifle/trad bow hunter?  How much gear is necessary?  How hard is this really to get into?  I have no idea.  But I'm a guy who likes to know how deep the water is before I jump off the cliff.   :-M

One of the decisions is how much recoil you intend to subject yourself to. Like Eric said, you can get guns that shoot roundball or guns that shoot conical bullets. In the .50/.54 realm that means a 1:72" twist for roundballs and a 1:44" twist for conicals. Yes, at very close range you can shoot conicals from a slow twist barrel, but they are gonna tumble pretty quick and there goes your accuracy. You can shoot roundball from faster twist barrels, but you don't wanna go with hotter loads because then you risk stripping the rifling and shooting knuckleballs and dip and dive.

Plenty of moose and elk have fallen to a mere patched roundball but your bullet placement is more critical and you want to run a little hotter load then you shoot for deer sized game. The conical bullets carry a great deal more mass, and for a wee bit more powder you get a good bit more energy downrange. You also get an equal amount of recoil, that's just physics. I've made a lot of one shot kills on deer with flintlocks and percussion lock guns, and my everyday shooting load is a mere 70 grains of powder behind a roundball. But if I were to draw a muzzleloader elk tag I would be out at the range with several lbs of powder, a thick stack of paper targets, whomping pile of fresh cast balls, and my old chronometer. I would be shooting 5 shot strings and going up 5 grains at a time, logging my bullet speeds against accuracy. I'd want the greatest possible speed before I start losing accuracy simply because that is going to impart more energy on impact.

I have an old CVA percussion gun with the 1:44 twist and I tried the R.E.A.L. slugs in that gun. The roundball had a manageable kick, but the slugs/conicals simply punched me back hard enough that shooting ceased being any fun at all. I dunno if I'd risk learning to flinch just for the heavier downrange slug. I think I would count on stealth, stalking, and patience to put me in a closer range where I can put that ball with precision where the boiler room lies on that game animal.

As for the rest of the kit, well, son, you are standing on the precipice. A gay friend once told me that my muzzleloading proclivities was all about the accessories. First you get a gun, but then you have to get the right powderhorn and shooting bag (he-man macho purse). But it doesn't end there because you have to accessorize with the various tools that adapt to your ramrod like buttons, ball pullers, tow worms, bore brushes, patch pullers, etc. Of course, you want spare ramrods in best grade hickory because you just know they can break. Which brings up range rods and cleaning rods, because you don't want to risk damaging or wearing out a fine-grained hickory ramrod when you can use a tough as nails nylon or brass one, even if it isn't exactly historically accurate. We won't even get into the issue of clothing fashion because then that brings up the quandary of choosing what period in time, what your socioeconomic status might be, or your craft, profession, or career choices. That's just going to lead you down the path of first-person interpretations and that means crafting a backstory and researching first person accounts from your chosen historical period and that is just a while nother rabbit hole. Hats? OMG! Hat choices will just drive you insane because they say EVERYTHING about your persona, wealth, culture, politics, heritage, and even birth order. That's even before we start to open the conversation about gros grain ribbon piping on brim edges, vs raw edging, whether to add a flourish of ribbon on a cockade or or or....my brain is gonna melt!!!

Long story short (and no one says this before the story has already gone on altogether too long) you can fall down a rabbit hole that makes Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland look like a short one liner joke. At the minimum, it's a gun, lead, powder, patch material, grease, flints or caps, a powder measure, and a couple tools that attach to the ramrod. If you are the least bit handy in the garage, you can make powder measures from brass tubing, lathe turned wood/antler/horn/bone or even a section of river cane. Patch material can be any all-cotton cloth you have around and you'll have to experiment to decide how thick or thin that patch material needs to be.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: How much of a rabbit hole is this?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2026, 10:01:58 am »
The TC Hawken and Renegade both have a 1 in 48 twist barrel, a middle of the road choice for balls or bullets. TC did make a rifle in the Renegade style called the Pennsylvania Hunter that had a 31", 1 in 66 twist barrel just for shooting round balls which were required in Pennsylvania's late flintlock season. They made this rifle in a carbine model but I don't know what the barrel twist is.

TC made a short carbine style rifle like the Renegade called a Whiter Mountain Carbine that had a 21" barrel with a 1 in 21 rifling twist rate just for conicals with a heavy powder charge.

As you go smaller in caliber the normal twist rate gets faster, my .40 with a Green Mountain barrel has a 1 in 48 twist and the barrel is made for shooting round balls of that caliber.

I just checked the Rice Barrel page and found that the drop in barrels they make for TC guns can have a rifling twist of 1 in 21, and 1 in 24 for bullets, a middle of the road 1 in 48 barrel and a strictly ball barrel that is 1 in 66.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2026, 10:05:19 am by Eric Krewson »

Offline WhistlingBadger

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Re: How much of a rabbit hole is this?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2026, 03:35:40 pm »
OK, I've done been overwhelmed.  I guess if I draw a bison tag I'll just borrow my dad's .338.  Or make a much heavier longbow.
Thomas
Lander, Wyoming
Arise!  Kill, and eat!

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: How much of a rabbit hole is this?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2026, 08:22:43 pm »
I added too many details, 95% of the guys shooting B/P guns just buy a gun, some powder and balls and start shooting them, they don't have clue about barrel rifling and such because it is not that important to the average shooter.

Being a gun builder I need to know the fine details but but everyone else in the sport, not so much.

I drew plan for my latest build that I just started, it will be a cherry stocked Haines rifle, my favorite design to date. This one will be a very slender .50 cal.

 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2026, 08:27:42 pm by Eric Krewson »

Offline WhistlingBadger

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Re: How much of a rabbit hole is this?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2026, 10:06:54 pm »
Well, that makes me feel a little better, Eric.   ;D  I was asking because I'm planning to put in for a bison tag this year.  It's a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, and on the off chance I draw one (not likely), I would want to have a story to tell.  I'm not convinced that hunting one with a primitive bow would be worth the discord it would cause with Mrs. Badger (she worries about me), so I thought a smoke pole might be a decent compromise.

It's an extremely long shot, but of course there are elk and deer and antelope too.  So I was just wondering how hard it was to get into.
Thomas
Lander, Wyoming
Arise!  Kill, and eat!