Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on March 21, 2018, 08:11:43 am
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1st annual Mojam Broadhead Flight Shoot
In keeping with the spirit of Mojam we have decided to organize a flight shoot that will hopefully become an annual event and a tradition at many of the other primitive venues happening around the country. The winner of this event will be declared the official Primitive Broadhead World Champion.
We will have 2 classes, laminated wood bows and self bows. All bows will shoot at 10 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight so there will be no weight classes.
The longest arrows allowed will be 28” from the bottom of the nock to the back of the broadhead.
All arrows must have at least 3each 4” fletches minimum 1/2” high. The broadhead must be no shorter than 1 1/4” and must not fit through a 7/8” id ring.
All bows and arrows must be registered, inspected and weighed and the arrows must be numbered.
There will be a 10 grain tolerance on minimum arrow weights no limits on maximum arrow weights.
We will have no restriction on string materials for the bows. No elevated rests allowed on bows.
The field will be laid out using 100 yard contractors tapes down each side of the field with stakes placed at 5 yard increments past the 150 marker out to 250 yards. The field will be 50 yards wide if space allows.
In keeping with the spirit of Mojam we also hope to collect important data here and award certificates for various accomplishments. At the registration desk your bow will be weighed and inspected. The information gathered will be transferred to a spreadsheet for future comparisons.
Example: John Smith 50# osage , D/R design, 2” reflex, 20 oz, 64” NN, 178 yards.
World record status will only be given to one bow with no regard to class but certicicates or trophies if available will be awarded for many accomplishments in many classes. Such as longest recurve, straight bow, English long bow, etc. I also favor certificates for any bows reaching 200, 190 and 180 yards.
The field will be open all day for qualifying and practice and data gathering. This will be less formal and broadheads will not be required. But bows and arrows will still be weighed and measured.
The official shooting line will be opened up for 2 hours each day of the shoot, the last day it will be in the morning. This will be for our Jamboree Flight Organization so rules we be carefully adhered to.
I will recommend a .50 cent charge per arrow shot with a 3 arrow minimum. At the official shoot it will be a 6 arrow max round with each bow, No limit on how many bows can be shot. Some of the money will go toward putting together the needed supplies for the flight station and anything in excess would go back to Mojam.
Hopefully at this Mojam we can train several others to officiate flight shoots at other venues where space allows and put together a flight station with scales, forms and equipment that can be shipped anywhere in the country as needed. We will be looking for volunteers and will also possibly be needing arrows of various weights so if you can bring a few extra to loan to the shoot it would be great.
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So does this mean you will be at Mojam this year Badger?
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So does this mean you will be at Mojam this year Badger?
Yep, I will be coming this year
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I'm in Steve.Sounds like a blast.I'm sure I'll learn a lot.I usually am there at least 2 days for sure.Only worry is about the weather of course but I guess everyone will be in the same boat so to speak.The area I think your talking about is very well protected though but above the trees wind could be there.
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I'm in Steve.Sounds like a blast.I'm sure I'll learn a lot.I usually am there at least 2 days for sure.Only worry is about the weather of course but I guess everyone will be in the same boat so to speak.The area I think your talking about is very well protected though but above the trees wind could be there.
We may have to schedule our shoot around the wind if we can.
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That sounds fun! Hopefully I can make it this year...I have missed the last couple.
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I am definitely on board to participate, and lend a hand wherever it is needed.
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Anyone with suggestions should also bring them up now. The sooner we solidify the rules the better. Thing slike classes. Do you favor a class for recurves, d/r bows, straight bows and Elbs in both self and composite. I like the idea of a few classes but some feel it may complicate things. All the data will be taken anyway so sorting out is all we really need to do.
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Sounds like fun, wish I could go. One thought, doesn't a limit of a 28" arrow length mean anyone with a draw length of more than 28" can't compete? I have never done a flight shoot, so don't know the typical rules, just wondering.
Tattoo Dave
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I like the idea of breaking it up into separate classes, without going overboard and having 30+ different classes for every little nuance.
I also would like to see an award for the fastest bow, or highest fps using 10 gpp arrows.
Should we have a separate class for sinew backed, or throw them in with the laminates?
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Sounds like fun, wish I could go. One thought, doesn't a limit of a 28" arrow length mean anyone with a draw length of more than 28" can't compete? I have never done a flight shoot, so don't know the typical rules, just wondering.
Tattoo Dave
Dave it just means they have to draw 28" for the competition.
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I like the idea of breaking it up into separate classes, without going overboard and having 30+ different classes for every little nuance.
I also would like to see an award for the fastest bow, or highest fps using 10 gpp arrows.
Should we have a separate class for sinew backed, or throw them in with the laminates?
We probably should set up a chrono at the station as well. I have mixed feelings about a chrono because there is so much difference in shooters it can have radical impact on results. I would favor a shooting machine if a chrono is used.
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Sounds like fun! Assuming I am able to make it, I'm in. I think only enough classes to give everyone a fair chance, but I've never been to one of these jams! Hope to see everyone in July!
Hawkdancer
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Some of the areas we might need some help and volunteers.
We need to design and build a Trophy for the self bow and composite bow winners ( 2 trophies)
We need someone to help design and print up certificates of accomplishments.
We will need someone to create a spread sheet for all the results and data collected
We will need someone to help design and print out the entry forms.
Anyone interested in helping out let us know and we will form a committee
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Just checked in here.
Talked with Robin here and can't entry forms be made up off a computer and printer?We got that here to do that.
Spreadsheets for data can be made off that too?I suppose like sheets that are shown in the turtle bow chapter?Would need numbers to make of both entry forms and data sheets.
I'm gonna check out the local bowling alley cafe too to see where they get their trophies at today.I'll get back about that one today.
The design of certificates I'm not sure about.
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I would volunteer to build the trophies, if everyone is ok with that
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Bob, yes the forms and the spread sheet will be easy just to create with the computer and print out, The certificates might need some design work done but we could likley find guys right here that can handle that to.
Aaron, I would be good with that! Can you design them also?
The form would look something like this but a better format
Entry Form Name E mail
Class Bow Draw Wt Length Mass Style
Composite Osage 62# 64” 22 oz D/R
Longest arrow
Arrow numbers Round 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 #18 192 yards
2
3
4
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Aaron, I would be good with that! Can you design them also?
Absolutely
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I will go ahead and write up an outline for a protocal that we will use at the shoot. Over the next 2 or 3 weeks we will refine it then print it out.
I think we also need someone that can be the historian and writer for the event so that it can be submitted to PA for an article. Nice photo spread should be submitted with it as well.
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Sounds good Aaron.Thanks.Getting some costs from local trophy maker too by me.
We already did a mock up of entry forms and data sheets.May need to be refined though.2 seperate sheets.1 data and 1 entry? or all on the same sheet?
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Ed, entry form could hold the data as well. The spreadsheet for all the data could just remain on the computer and taken from the entry form.
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Not much interest so far, could anyone comment if this is something they would like to get going or not? Yay or Nay?
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Sure Steve, I think it would be a lot of fun.
I read through the proposed standards and rules and think they're fine; yes it's going to be some work for all of us involved but limiting the shooting time, like the 2 hours a day, it would be doable.
It still leaves plenty of time for yarning and visiting and working on bows.
Keep the classes of bow to a minimum, self or laminated, then two or three sub classes each. Self-ELB-flatbow-recurve; Laminated - R/D, flatbow, recurve.
Most of us would likely just want to see how far our bow would shoot.
Looking forward to MoJAM XX, it's hard to believe it's been 20 years. Looking forward to seeing old friends and making new ones.
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I certainly plan to compete...well, I'll do my best anyways. Maybe there should be a beginner's class ;)
Steve, can you tell us what the official record is for a Broadhead Flightshoot, and who holds it?
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I agree with that, Aaron! (SH). Got to do a lot of practicing before then!
Hawkdancer
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Aaron, the current world records for broadhead were shot with all bows shooting 500 grain arrows so they won't compare very well. The 50# class was using 10 grains per pound with the 500 grain arrows so that is where you can compare it. I currently hold the record in the self bow and simple composite class for the 50# bows Self is about 221 and simple composite is about 231 yds. The distances at 10 grains a pound for our shoot should compare to these. I fully expect to get beat by a deserving archer.
As for the beginners class. The field will be open all day for testing and qualifying for certificates of performance. The official flight line for the championship will likely be open twice a day. Once in the morning and once in the afternoon. A little coaching is all you will likely need.
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That's fantastic Steve. I'm glad this is finally starting to gain interest. You've been pushing for more events for years. I would love to go but it won't happen this year. I'm pretty sure I could make something that would be competitive.
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Mark, If it goes the way we plan you will be able to hold one in your own neighborhood. Keeping it simple.
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I wonder if guys could weigh in with an opinion on this event. Either Yea or Neigh. If no feel free to give a reason. We seem to be getting a low response on this so it may not be a good idea???
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My opinion will not really matter since it is a bit far by bike from the Netherlands;-) But since the response is a little low I will just say that I think it is awesome that you do this. I am really into flight shooting lately and would love to see more specific flight shoots!
Would love to come over and shoot all my bows for flight!
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Hopefully, they are just procrastinating! I think it will be neat to see how far my everyday gear will shoot. There may even be someone older than me on the line!
Hawkdancer
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Leonwood,
Come on over! It's only a matter of time, money, distance, visas, and all that other government b. Stuff! Not familiar at all with the geoplitcal map of he Netherlands, but my mother's family is from there! We can always find a place to camp!
Hawkdancer
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I wonder if guys could weigh in with an opinion on this event. Either Yea or Neigh. If no feel free to give a reason. We seem to be getting a low response on this so it may not be a good idea???
Steve,
Like Leon, I am not sure if it is worthwhile to comment at this point on the specifics, especially as it may be quite some time before there is a shoot in my area. My only thought is that you might want to keep the classes flexible and rules tentative until after you get some feed back from the participants at mojam.
I do like the 10gpp idea for it's equalization factor. Any other ways to equalize results between equipment seems worthwhile.
Maybe different distance shooting stations/flight lines for different classes of bows? something so that the landing zone looks competitive? arrows to be retrieved and winners declared after all classes finish shooting?
Maybe making adjustments on the shooting station distance on an annual basis for generalized classes will be easier than developing specific bow rules?
When watching the olympics recently, I was reminded that the events where they were racing against the clock were not near as fun to watch as side by side competitors.
I am assuming that this event is designed to appeal more for clubs and get togethers like mojam?
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Willie, at 10 grains per pound all bows should shoot in the same distance range. The only difference will be the archer and the speed factor of the bow. I am refining the rules slightly each day. They are slightly different than where I started. The heavier arrows have a slight advantage in that they carry a little better in the air but they also require a bit more fletch to stay under control so I dropped any restriction on fletching, it will be u to the archer how much fletch he wants to use. This should help a little in nullifying the advantage.
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Thing slike classes. Do you favor a class for recurves, d/r bows, straight bows and Elbs in both self and composite. I like the idea of a few classes but some feel it may complicate things. All the data will be taken anyway so sorting out is all we really need to do.
the 10 ggp will hopefully negate the need for weight classes. I guess my comment was more about equalizing the different type construction classes. if the flight line handicaps for each construction types are adequate, then an elb self bow might be able to outshoot a laminated or a R/D.
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You know that I'm in and that I will help any way I can. I just got back from OJam and there was a lot of interest in this event. I had many people say that they would attend, and several want to compete. Don't be discouraged by the fact that you're not getting lots of feedback online yet...Lots of these guys don't play much online.
:OK
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Thing slike classes. Do you favor a class for recurves, d/r bows, straight bows and Elbs in both self and composite. I like the idea of a few classes but some feel it may complicate things. All the data will be taken anyway so sorting out is all we really need to do.
the 10 ggp will hopefully negate the need for weight classes. I guess my comment was more about equalizing the different type construction classes. if the flight line handicaps for each construction types are adequate, then an elb self bow might be able to outshoot a laminated or a R/D.
Currently an ELB holds a Broadhead world record in the unlimited class shooting against recurves and D/R bows that were much heavier. I don't think a handicap will be needed. The differences in styles won't be all that great. But we do plan on giving out awards based on different classes.
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Steve, are there any restrictions on what the arrows have to be made from?
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Willie all wood arrows, no restrictions on fletching as first listed. Any size fletch is ok.
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Having a good selection of regulation arrows on hand for the new guys to shoot with would seem to be helpful for a first time event.
It would be a hoot if some guy that never shot flight before, made the record setting shot.
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Having a good selection of regulation arrows on hand for the new guys to shoot with would seem to be helpful for a first time event.
It would be a hoot if some guy that never shot flight before, made the record setting shot.
I have seen it happen ands wouldn't surprise me if it happens here. I fully expect some very good shots will be made over the weekend.
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I know that you make your 'broadheads', but is there a commercial broadhead that works best? Also, if the broadhead will hit your finger at 28", I suppose it needs to be mounted at closer to 28 3/4"?
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Im interested for certain! Im a short bow guy and would be interested in seeing a class or some recognition made for shorties pulling all the way back to 28.
Badger knows how short I make em, as i have had a few conversations with him about my design. Steve, is there any merit to a short bow long draw class?
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Im interested for certain! Im a short bow guy and would be interested in seeing a class or some recognition made for shorties pulling all the way back to 28.
Badger knows how short I make em, as i have had a few conversations with him about my design. Steve, is there any merit to a short bow long draw class?
Sleek we will be taking data down on all bows entered as they did in the first Mojam, Broadhead rounds are basically hunters rounds so maybe as we enter the data we could sort for length and call anything under 60" brushbow classes.
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I think this will be a fun event. After talking to some guys at OJAM I think thete will be some newcomers to MOJAM this year. Steve if you could, nail down the rules for arrows and broadheads so I can get to making some.
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I will post the final rules in a couple of days.
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From shooting at the clout shoot at Mo Jams' annual bow making gathering I'm pretty sure there is enough room for this event.At least 240 to 250 yards I would say,but have really never actually measured it.If I'm wrong I sure hope someone can correct me from a member of the club there as I'm not a member myself.I was thinking shooting diagonally on that course would make sure enough length would be there with a 25 to 30 yard width shooting lane.
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From shooting at the clout shoot at Mo Jams' annual bow making gathering I'm pretty sure there is enough room for this event.At least 240 to 250 yards I would say,but have really never actually measured it.If I'm wrong I sure hope someone can correct me from a member of the club there as I'm not a member myself.I was thinking shooting diagonally on that course would make sure enough length would be there with a 25 to 30 yard width shooting lane.
Well, the field has never been to short for any of my shots at the clout shoots... (SH)
::)
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I love the concept of flight shooting! I probably wouldn't go to that, considering the Bonville flight shoot is practically in my backyard seeing that I live in UT. I agree that we should try to do stuff like 10 gpp for a better comparison, but I don't think you should segregate by type of bow too much or you cut down on the competitors in each class. What about draw length? a 50 lb bow is 50 lbs at 28" inch draw but if you draw it to 29" while everyone else is drawing at 28" it seems like you would have an unfair advantage. I was watching a video about the Kahtra and it's theorized that the benefits of it increasing speed is merely due to the fact that it instantly increases your draw by a bit right before release. Even if it was 50 lbs at 30" I would think it would be more likely to shoot faster than a 50# at 28" but I'm not sure about that.
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gfugal- the draw weight will be measured at 28" prior to the qualifying shot and arrows will have broadheads mounted so that the base of the broadhead hits the riser at 28" to insure that all arrows are shot at the same draw length. It wasn't my idea, it was way too smart for me... :BB
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Well I’m not sure I’ll have anything competition ready but we’ll see.
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I love the concept of flight shooting! I probably wouldn't go to that, considering the Bonville flight shoot is practically in my backyard seeing that I live in UT. I agree that we should try to do stuff like 10 gpp for a better comparison, but I don't think you should segregate by type of bow too much or you cut down on the competitors in each class. What about draw length? a 50 lb bow is 50 lbs at 28" inch draw but if you draw it to 29" while everyone else is drawing at 28" it seems like you would have an unfair advantage. I was watching a video about the Kahtra and it's theorized that the benefits of it increasing speed is merely due to the fact that it instantly increases your draw by a bit right before release. Even if it was 50 lbs at 30" I would think it would be more likely to shoot faster than a 50# at 28" but I'm not sure about that.
As I understand it, the arrow can not be longer than 28 or too light for the bow, so all's you really need to compete is an arrow that qualifies.
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Is there a stipulation on forward facing handles? DC's recent bow is an example of one (although very minor to what they could be). by bringing the handle forward let's say 2 inches from the back of the limbs you, in essence, increase your draw by 2 inches if you measure from the back of the riser. But I'm sure you've already thought of this and have some measure in place
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The way I understand it from the throat of the nock to the base of the broadhead with it being mounted 90 degrees to the bow so no more than 28" on any of the bows.Other details will be posted which I don't think are too complicated.It'll be cheap fun.Awards I think will be given from 180 yards on up the way I understand it.
I just thought maybe someone familiar with the area would have an exact idea of the distance there.It looks to me like plenty of room.
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You probably can zoom in on the area and measure the size of the field with a satellite view on Google Earth or other mapping program.
Alan
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We may have to use the golf course :o
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I need to find out for sure before we go to far and find out we can't do it. A couple of guys on the committee feel like corner to corner they can get 286 yards. I would feel safe with 250 yards minimum. I don't know if they will carry as far at that elevation as they do at Wendover but from my experience shooting at sea level I honestly don't notice any real difference. Maybe 10 yards at the most.
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I just looked on google maps and you can pick a spot, right click, and then measure to another spot...it looks like about 300 yards...
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.114072,-93.1657105,358m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.114072,-93.1657105,358m/data=!3m1!1e3)
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Good deal Bob.Thanks for checking that out.
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It looks like we will have to start from way back in the corner. We will need a spotter to make sure the field is clear before we open up for shooting
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It looks like we will have to start from way back in the corner. We will need a spotter to make sure the field is clear before we open up for shooting
+1...The 3D course to the left in the trees or west of the shooting area will have to be closed during this event also.There is a 3D course on the other side of the driveway or farther west yet for that to be open though.
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I wouldn't feel right asking them to shut down the 3 d course while we shot. It looks like if we just got way back in that rear corner and used the railroad tracks for a line to shoot just to the left of we would be ok. If there are serious safety concerns we may need to rethink the project and maybe just do the chrono shoot like they did in the first mojam.
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This shouldn't affect the 3D shooting at all. There is a target (sometimes) down at the end where we will be shooting from, but that should be an easy fix by just eliminating that one target. The 3D shooting is only done for fun anyway and the targets aren't numbered or anything. We might even see about just moving the 3D range over to the old range instead since it's a better setup anyway now that the bridge has been replaced. I'll ask Keith.
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I just got an email from Keith and he said the 3D course is not a problem. :OK
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The railroad tracks will give the archers a good visual point to align himself to. After the first day of shooting ( Thursday) we will have a good idea how far they are spreading out.
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OK.That's all good then.It was just a thought that's all and more than likely an over thought too....lol.
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BowEd, thanks for the heads up. It was something that needed to be worked out. :OK
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That stretch along the railroad tracks should work length wise and width wise.More fun and games in a week of fun and games.
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Some of the other members have requested I open the thread back up to further explore suggestions by Tim Baker and Sleek.
I am open to suggestions and will do my best to stay open minded and flexible as long as my own objective is not diluted to the point I loose interest.
1st of all Sleeks suggestion for equaling the playing field for bows with shorter draws. My argument is that I don't feel that this can effectively be accomplished with primitive bows. The method he suggested is a good solid method for comparing bows of different draw lengths. But when it comes to primitive bows handicapping the shorter length bow with a lower arrow weight based on stored energy gives them a distinct advantage. Short draw bows have not been exposed to the same stresses that longer draw bows have been exposed to and will always be more efficient.
I would be ok with grouping shorter draw bows together by draw length and having them compete with other bows of the same draw length using Sleeks method of lowering the grains per pound in relation to draw. It would be interesting to see how they compare. If they were competing against one another I would personally build a 24" draw bow with no set at all.
Tims suggestion of testing is ok by itself but conflicts with what I had in mind when I set out to get a broadhead flight shoot going. My goal is simple. If a shooter wants to shoot through the chrono and do the flight shoot I would prefer the same shooter did both the chrono and the flight shoot so we could compare the speed and distance. This way if a guy was sitting at home and he was testing his bows he could say. I have that kind of speed so that means I could compete for the top spots in a flight shoot.
If one shooter has a fast release and records a high score on the chrono and another shooter shoots the flight shoot with the same bow it will appear that the bow needs more speed than it really does to reach a certain distance.
OPEN FOR DEBATE!!!
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I like the idea of the same shooter on both the chrono and distance shoot.Not much room is needed for a chrono shot.A lot of room is needed for a distance shot.
As far as the formulation in arrow weight to shoot 24" draws goes.I'm all for it.If they want to shoot against a 4" longer power stroke that's their business.I'm there for fun and to learn something.
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Steve, im happy with your solutions, and will be excited to participate in all the events as you have them laid out.
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Steve, im happy with your solutions, and will be excited to participate in all the events as you have them laid out.
Sleek, I started another thread you might be interested in. It will likely take some time for feed back to start pouring in.
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Steve, im happy with your solutions, and will be excited to participate in all the events as you have them laid out.
Sleek, I started another thread you might be interested in. It will likely take some time for feed back to start pouring in.
I will look for it. Thanks.
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I think when it comes to primitive archery we all have a slightly different perspective on how we see it and what it means to us. A lot of that may have something to do with when we entered the sport and the folks we cut our teeth with. 20 years ago most of us were making a lot of mistakes. We knew there was a lot of room for improvement and everything we discovered or thought we had discovered was like finding a nugget of gold. Back in those days a relatively minor improvement in technique could make a dramatic change in performance.
The first Mojam stats taken were a good reflection of this and those of you who have never had a chance to review them I think you would find them interesting. Over the years I have witnessed a steady improvement in not only performance but many techniques that have been developed or perfected that have all added to this steady improvement.
Fast forward to today, I honestly don't think there is much room left for improvement. refining some technique that gives you a 2 fps boost is as valuable as what used to give us a 6 fps boost. My belief is that today's biggest challenge is simply to become a better bowyer refining the actual process of building and tillering out a bow. I believe we will see so many bows at a high level of performance that looking at trends will be more important than looking at individual bows. I feel like if we can get this broadhead flight shoot going at any of the primitive events that have enough room to sponsor one we will start developing these valuable trends. All the data from these events will be managed at one central location and blended together.
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Steve
You should just go ahead and never mind the nay sayers, it can evolve over time.
As to Tim, if he doesn't like it then as they say...too bad so sad.
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It sounds like it's all coming together. Keith will get this on the 'schedule board', probably as a morning and afternoon event, and we will have a whiteboard on display showing the top shots in each category as the weekend progresses. I'm with Ed... let the fun begin! (SH)
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for fun and to learn something.
Have a way to include everyone who shows up to shoot, keep as good a record as you can on every shot, have a "what would you like to see next time" question on everyone's form, keep an open mind and see which way the wind blows after its over.
I'm with Ed... let the fun begin! (SH)
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for fun and to learn something.
Have a way to include everyone who shows up to shoot, keep as good a record as you can on every shot, have a "what would you like to see next time" question on everyone's form, keep an open mind and see which way the wind blows after its over.
I'm with Ed... let the fun begin! (SH)
Good idea Willie, at the muzzleloading matches here, we have a whiteboard with each shooters results posted according to the matches (targets) they shot. In order of registration, everybody gets to see how and what they are doing. The scoring table gets a bit hairy at times, but every one gets to see their scores rather quickly. Looking forward to the whole shindig! (SH) :BB (f) :KN (=)!!
Hawkdancer
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In order to keep steve happy and involved, i think its best to leave the shoot he has organized alone. I see what he is doing and it makes sense. I think that what we are doing can add on to it, but not change anything he is doing.
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As I understand it, the flightline will be open for a couple of hours each day. I hope that it would be open to all who want to shoot. if your bow or arrow does not qualify for the 10gpp @28 competion and trophy, you should still have a chance to get your results recorded for the purpose of collecting stats. Having these stats down the road, may help the event in the future. It will also let everyone have a chance to compare their own set up to others in a meaningful way as being part of a common database, something that Tim was hoping to peruse also.
Not trying to change Steves plan for the planned Competion. Just widening the window for the database that was a dual purpose all along.
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There you go Willie! Bring your bows and have fun.and yes that additional data will be helpful down the road. I am pretty sure anyone that can be a threat to the competition can build a bow between now and that shoot of any design. Arvin
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Willie, you can draw shorter than 28" just not longer and you can also use more than 10 grains per pound just not less. We will also have arrows available to match up with your bow.