Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: toomanyknots on December 07, 2013, 01:06:48 am
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I am using a cheap router (the cheap 60 dollar ryobi from HD) mounted to a home made table, and a 1/2" straight bit I believe. All my attempts are either all chewed up, or smoke through the holes and won't go through. My infeed holes are 1/2", my outfeed holes are 3/8". The guide holes are made of hard maple (would using ipe be better/smoke less?). I cut my stock just under 3/8", to where it is snug but not too tight in the in feed holes. I don't have my infeed and the first outfeed holes right up against the bit, they are about 1 1/2" away from it or so I think, should I have them right up against the bit? Not sure exactly what I am doing wrong...
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Too many, your poor results are because you haven't found the sweet spot in the distance the cutter is from the shaft. When things are smoking, it's too far away. When the shaft is all chewed up, the cutter is too close.
The difference between smoking and perfect can be as little as .003". Unless you have a dial indicator set up to measure how far you move things, it can be real shot in the dark.
But keep at it. Your "cheap" router will make perfect shafts once you get things adjusted.
My first setup was all wood, like yours. It made great shafts. I only got more complicated because I wanted to be able to change sizes of shaft quickly and without trial and error in spades. If I were only making one size, I'd still have my wood setup.
Jim Davis
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Thank you. I guess I will keep at it. :) Is a straight bit ok to use? Are there better bits to use?
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A straight bit is the best to use because as the wood rotates toward it, the cutter begins cutting at a tangent to the initial diameter (a circle that passes through the corners of the square stock in this case) and finishes by cutting at a tangent to the finished size.
A concave bit would be cutting a bigger bite at the beginning.
Here's another illustration. It was in a Fine Woodworking magazine iirc, maybe 20 years ago. It specifies a straight bit.
Jim
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Rigidity is key !
Your guides do need to be close to the bit so as to eliminate as much deflection as possible !
Make sure the bit is sharp !
The hard maple blocks should be fine !
You will do some playing around with the guide blocks as you evolve into this like hole size, number of blocks, metal ones to burnish,etc, but you are fine for starting up !
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Rigidity is key !
Your guides do need to be close to the bit so as to eliminate as much deflection as possible !
Make sure the bit is sharp !
The hard maple blocks should be fine !
You will do some playing around with the guide blocks as you evolve into this like hole size, number of blocks, metal ones to burnish,etc, but you are fine for starting up !
Thanks Buckeye. I'll make a couple more blocks, or move the ones I have up real close to the bit. I've been playing around with the pencil sharpener jigs for a while, but I always get tear out on them with certain woods, so I thought the router jig would fix that. I'd love to try the expensive veritas jig with the arrow inserts, but than again I would love to have 300 bucks I could blow on whatever, haha. I wonder if I would still get tear out with doug fir with the expensive dowel jig...
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Rigidity is key !
Your guides do need to be close to the bit so as to eliminate as much deflection as possible !
Make sure the bit is sharp !
The hard maple blocks should be fine !
You will do some playing around with the guide blocks as you evolve into this like hole size, number of blocks, metal ones to burnish,etc, but you are fine for starting up !
Only thing I would add is that you don't need all the exclamation marks. Be calm. One will do! ;)
Toomany, can you post a photo of your setup?
Jim
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I made a jig up on my band saw with less trial and error. Made the shafts and they are still sitting in the corner....lol.
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Rigidity is key !
Your guides do need to be close to the bit so as to eliminate as much deflection as possible !
Make sure the bit is sharp !
The hard maple blocks should be fine !
You will do some playing around with the guide blocks as you evolve into this like hole size, number of blocks, metal ones to burnish,etc, but you are fine for starting up !
Only thing I would add is that you don't need all the exclamation marks. Be calm. One will do! ;)
Toomany, can you post a photo of your setup?
Jim
Haha, sure, give me one sec...
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I made a jig up on my band saw with less trial and error. Made the shafts and they are still sitting in the corner....lol.
i was thinkin of doing that, but I thought I was crazy! :D
Edit: Like this, hard to tell but the finished product doesn't really look too bad?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWiSjKngnCU
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i was thinkin of doing that, but I thought I was crazy! :D
Edit: Like this, hard to tell but the finished product doesn't really look too bad?:
That's a very ingenious setup. I'd try it if I didn't know how well the router works. Can't tell anything about the finish. But think of this: Have you ever seen a band sawn surface as smooth as a routed surface?
Then too, the diameter is totally the result of the skill with which the hole is made in proximity to the blade kerf. Totally unadjustible if it's not right.
When the router setup is adjusted right, the shafts will be burnished as slick as if they were varnished.
One thing not mentioned yet is that the pivot of the arm that holds the blocks should be as close to the bit as practical. That way the far end moves much more than the input bock when you adjust the cut size.
Also, way up above, you mentioned that you are making 3/8" shafts. WHY? You can just as easily make 11/32". Veritas-type cutters are limited to the sizes the maker provides, but with the router setup, you can make any diameter you want. I have bushings for 1/4" to 23/64".
Jim
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i was thinkin of doing that, but I thought I was crazy! :D
Edit: Like this, hard to tell but the finished product doesn't really look too bad?:
That's a very ingenious setup. I'd try it if I didn't know how well the router works. Can't tell anything about the finish. But think of this: Have you ever seen a band sawn surface as smooth as a routed surface?
Then too, the diameter is totally the result of the skill with which the hole is made in proximity to the blade kerf. Totally unadjustible if it's not right.
When the router setup is adjusted right, the shafts will be burnished as slick as if they were varnished.
One thing not mentioned yet is that the pivot of the arm that holds the blocks should be as close to the bit as practical. That way the far end moves much more than the input bock when you adjust the cut size.
Also, way up above, you mentioned that you are making 3/8" shafts. WHY? You can just as easily make 11/32". Veritas-type cutters are limited to the sizes the maker provides, but with the router setup, you can make any diameter you want. I have bushings for 1/4" to 23/64".
Jim
Good point about the bandsaw finish. At this point I'd be happy with anything halfway decent without tear out though. I am not having the best of luck. Seeing as I have no idea what I doing as well, I figure it could be anything, which is kinda frustrating. I think for one my infeed holes are too small at 1/2" for 3/8" finished diameter. I was using 3/8" square stock that was rounded a bit at the corners to fit in the 1/2" but still I end up with squarish looking dowels (with the chewed up chatter all over em, plus they are still smoking and burnt). I was thinking of trying to widen my holes to 9/16, and try bigger stock. If I get this working at 3/8", and can get a hang of it, than I will try to get more exact arrow diameters. Right now I can't get crap. I will take your advice and change the pivot to close to the bit on the other end. Here are some pictures:
The infeed hole to the right I nocked off a minute ago, so that I could widen the other two to 9/16 when I pick up a 9/16 bit later on today...
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3629.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3629.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3630.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3630.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3631.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3631.jpg.html)
Nut to allow the thing to pivot:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3633.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3633.jpg.html)
Made my own socket because I didn't have one:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3637.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3637.jpg.html)
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Good point about the bandsaw finish. At this point I'd be happy with anything halfway decent without tear out though. I am not having the best of luck. Seeing as I have no idea what I doing as well, I figure it could be anything, which is kinda frustrating. I think for one my infeed holes are too small at 1/2" for 3/8" finished diameter. I was using 3/8" square stock that was rounded a bit at the corners to fit in the 1/2" but still I end up with squarish looking dowels (with the chewed up chatter all over em, plus they are still smoking and burnt). I was thinking of trying to widen my holes to 9/16, and try bigger stock. If I get this working at 3/8", and can get a hang of it, than I will try to get more exact arrow diameters. Right now I can't get crap. I will take your advice and change the pivot to close to the bit on the other end. Here are some pictures:
The infeed hole to the right I nocked off a minute ago, so that I could widen the other two to 9/16 when I pick up a 9/16 bit later on today...
Diagonal measure across the corners of a 3/8" square is .530. You need a 33/64 bit, which would be .516.
Nut to allow the thing to pivot:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3633.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3633.jpg.html)
Your pivot is almost infinitely too far from the bit (here's a place for an exclamation point!)[/quote]
Made my own socket because I didn't have one:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3637.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3637.jpg.html)
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You are working WAY too hard. Take a 9/16" 3/8's drive socket and put the square wood in the square hole. Put a 3/8" bolt head in the hex part of the socket. Chuck the bolt in your drill and make dowels. When you have pushed the wood as close to the router bit as the drill can come, unchuck the bolt and chuck the drill on the other end of the dowel and pull it on through. No need to reverse rotation. The router doesn't care.
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Your pivot is almost infinitely too far from the bit (here's a place for an exclamation point!)
haha, ;D. Thanks for the tips.
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I don't like the veritas unit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still tears out on some woods and I like to taper things so not the ticket for me .
These days if I want shafts from boards I use the lathe and sandpaper !
As for to many exclamation points ! Here are a few more ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Just in case I missed some ! >:D :laugh:
Sorry folks I can be a little ornery from time to time !
Thanks for noticing my lack of skill for writing !
Have fun
The worthless old nut !
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The worthless old nut !
No Idea who that is /\, but using an exclamation point too often makes it mean less, if not meaningless.
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Yeah those band saw shafts definitely have to be sanded. Router definitely makes a smoother product. I did them both ways, the router was smoother just more persnickety to set up.
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Yeah those band saw shafts definitely have to be sanded. Router definitely makes a smoother product. I did them both ways, the router was smoother just more persnickety to set up.
After playing with it a bit, I am getting pretty good results with the bandsaw. Still tinkering a bit, I am using a blade that typically does not give a good cut no matter what. I wonder how a woodslicer would work? I'm gonna set up some guide holes I guess and try er out. If it gives me semi ok doug fir shafts without tear out, it will give me better results than any of the pencil sharpener jigs would (I am guessing). By the way yall, does Ipe make good compression holes? Does it turn white woods brown? Also, should a typical router straight bit work? I looked at some half circle bits today, but man, I just don't feel like spending 60 bucks for something that I may not be able to get to work for me.
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The worthless old nut !
No Idea who that is /\, but using an exclamation point too often makes it mean less, if not meaningless.
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Thanks for the lesson !
nowiwilljuststopusinganypunctuationsoitcanbemoremeaningfull
A Buckeye is referred to as a worthless nut so that must be me
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I just tried the bandsaw and mine look like a screw, but thats ok cause I have to barrel them on the belt sander anyway. Think I will stick with the bansaw for my flight arrows. I was just belt sanding them from squarestock, I hate the noise with the router.
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That's what ear protectors are for. They keep the ears warm too, if your shop is cool.
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That's what ear protectors are for. They keep the ears warm too, if your shop is cool.
Haha, yeah I have been finding myself wearing mine all the time anymore. My basement (where my power tools are) don't get no heat except the holes here and there in the crappy heating duct. I am pretty happy with the results I am getting with my bandsaw yall (exclamation mark, ;D). It is no where near as good as you can get with a router I would guess, but it is the best I have got out of anything I have tried yet. What I got going on is I cut my stock at 7/16" wide, and spin it into a 3/8" hole. The tips of the blade are sticking out just a tiny little bit, to where you can barely feel them. I wasn't having the best luck guiding the stock in without getting flat spots until I added the infeed guide hole (which I cut with a 5/8" guide hole, which fits the 7/16" stock pretty good). It took me a bit of playing around to get the stuff looking ok though. The blade I am using is a lenox carbide higher tension thicker something or other, I thought it was a trimaster but it doesn't look like it. It has teeth similar to tablesaw though, not like a normal hook or rake tooth. Might have something to do with it, whether it is a good thing or bad thing I don't know.
This is right after cutting
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3639.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3639.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3642.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3642.jpg.html)
You can see the tiny saw marks here, I could probably play with it till I get niltch, but I am happy at least being able to cut without tear out
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3643.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3643.jpg.html)
Above is my attempt on the bandsaw, below is my best results from messing with the router, lol ;D. I'll figure out the router sooner or later, it does seem to be the best way.
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3645.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3645.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3646.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3646.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3647.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3647.jpg.html)
I guess I am going to put an arm on it, than put another guide hole or two, and see if I can turn out some 3/8 shafts. My plan is to taper the nock end to spine them, but I am kinda confused on something I read. Does tapering the shaft effect the spine of the arrow, verses not tapering? I read on here that you need to drop 10 lb or so from the spine of an arrow shaft if you taper it, is this true? So if it spines 40, but it is tapered, than you can assume it shoots like a 30 spine shaft, all other things being equal?
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Tapering does not necessarily change the spine
The center 1/3 of the shaft caries the lions share of the spline
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Here is the way shafts come out of my router setup. Note shine in first photo.
Second photo was taken with flash with no mercy. Note tiny bits of fuzz showing at edges of shaft. shows all.
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Here is the way shafts come out of my router setup. Note shine in first photo.
Second photo was taken with flash with no mercy. Note tiny bits of fuzz showing at edges of shaft. shows all.
Very nice, looks like some nice tight grain douglas fir. I found some just like that at menards in the trim, believe it or not. It's weird how there can be real dense tough douglas fir like your picture, and then there can be real light weak thick ring douglas fir too. They seem almost like 2 different trees. Jim, maybe sometime you can cross the ohio river and come up here to cincinnati (hamilton actually) and show me how to get this darned thing to work, ;D.
Tapering does not necessarily change the spine
The center 1/3 of the shaft caries the lions share of the spline
Thank ya Buckeye.
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Chris, on hunting weight arrows I adjust my spine first by sanding and then I use slight barreling to adjust and make my weights uniform. Barreling has almost no effect on spine, I would say if anything it would make a 40# spine behave more like a 50# spine.
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Chris, you were asking about the veritas tool. I had the master set but much preffered the router set up. I like to adjust my spine almost exact and my weight to within about 5 grains. So I still have to spin them by hand on my belt sander to do that. My favorite tool for 3/8 shafts is the veritas tool like a pencil sharpner. I can run 2 doz doug fir shafts in about 30 min and spend another hour or so adjusting them out. It works great with doug fir and pine.
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Very nice, looks like some nice tight grain douglas fir. I found some just like that at menards in the trim, believe it or not. It's weird how there can be real dense tough douglas fir like your picture, and then there can be real light weak thick ring douglas fir too. They seem almost like 2 different trees. Jim, maybe sometime you can cross the ohio river and come up here to cincinnati (hamilton actually) and show me how to get this darned thing to work, ;D.
Most of my arrow wood comes from salvaged trim. In the good old days, the best fine grained fir went for trim, doors and flooring. It's the old growth fir the owls pitched such a fit about cutting a few years back. Come to think of it, WHO ever heard an owl say anything about trees?
The wide grained fir is what we used to call "second growth," meaning trees that grew after the first logging was done. The new trees had no competition and put on a lot of growth each year, so made wide rings.
James Duff, early 20th century fletcher and bowyer, didn't think shafts needed to have fine narrow rings to be good arrows. I think he had a point. I make arrows out of most any fir or yellow pine as long as the rings are straight. I do like the fine rings and never pass them up, but I take and use what I can get.
Jim
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Chris, you were asking about the veritas tool. I had the master set but much preffered the router set up. I like to adjust my spine almost exact and my weight to within about 5 grains. So I still have to spin them by hand on my belt sander to do that. My favorite tool for 3/8 shafts is the veritas tool like a pencil sharpner. I can run 2 doz doug fir shafts in about 30 min and spend another hour or so adjusting them out. It works great with doug fir and pine.
You don't get no tear out with the veritas dowel cutter and douglas fir? Man they had a set of all 3 sizes of em on ebay a while back for cheap, I knew I should of picked em up.
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Like many have said, it's all in the set-up. That is true with any woodworking tool. Spending the time ahead of running your work will have you feeling good, instead of cussing when you look at your finished piece. I guess all of this fuss is worth it to those who want to make arrows from dowels, but it sure makes me feel better about the amount of time I spend making cane arrows. :D
asharrow - (Jim) That's why you can rip a 75 year old 2X4 out of an old house and it's still straight!
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Just as a follow up and a warning to this, I did get a good amount of pretty decent quality 3/8 shafts using my bandsaw (I tried to make a 11/32 jig, but I couldn't get it to stop tearing out little bits here and there from my 7/16 stock, I am thinking it is trying to take off too much wood), I also ruined 2 bandsaw blades in the process, one was a 100 dollar carbide blade. So I would never recommend doing this with a blade you don't wanna absolutely ruin. Both blades were older, but the carbide one was still cutting great, so that hurt. With the router, I have managed to get an ok finish, but the shaft is shaped like bamboo, with big fat spots and little thin spots! What in the heck! Man am I gonna celebrate when (if) I get this stupid thing working. Yall make it look way too easy, (or maybe I am just good at making everything look hard, ;D)
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... With the router, I have managed to get an ok finish, but the shaft is shaped like bamboo, with big fat spots and little thin spots! What in the heck! Man am I gonna celebrate when (if) I get this stupid thing working. Yall make it look way too easy, (or maybe I am just good at making everything look hard, ;D)
1. The input hole needs to be a sized that just is a snug fit on the corners of the square stock.
2a. The cutter needs to make the round part a size that you can't push into the output hole unless the shaft is spinning.
2b. It should require a fairly firm push on the drill to make the round stock go through the output hole, but no more than a couple of pounds of push. If it's harder than that, the cutter needs to remove more wood. If it is very easy to push the shaft through the output hole, the cutter needs to remove less wood.
3. If you wig-wag back and forth in pushing the drill, the shaft will be bent toward and away from the cutter, resulting in your bamboo look. (I never get a bamboo look, but unless I am careful to push straight, it does get noticeably easier or harder to push the drill.
hope this helps.
Jim
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... With the router, I have managed to get an ok finish, but the shaft is shaped like bamboo, with big fat spots and little thin spots! What in the heck! Man am I gonna celebrate when (if) I get this stupid thing working. Yall make it look way too easy, (or maybe I am just good at making everything look hard, ;D)
1. The input hole needs to be a sized that just is a snug fit on the corners of the square stock.
2a. The cutter needs to make the round part a size that you can't push into the output hole unless the shaft is spinning.
2b. It should require a fairly firm push on the drill to make the round stock go through the output hole, but no more than a couple of pounds of push. If it's harder than that, the cutter needs to remove more wood. If it is very easy to push the shaft through the output hole, the cutter needs to remove less wood.
3. If you wig-wag back and forth in pushing the drill, the shaft will be bent toward and away from the cutter, resulting in your bamboo look. (I never get a bamboo look, but unless I am careful to push straight, it does get noticeably easier or harder to push the drill.
hope this helps.
Jim
Thank you once again, it does help. I guess I will try to make another arm and guide holes. I am going to use 5/8 holes to fit 7/16 square stock, and then have it reduced by the router bit to 11/32 hopefully. When I was running it a bit ago, it was like it would be hard to push, and then go really easy, and fast again, and than hard again, and then fast, this is when I got the "bamboo" shape. The entire time I was running the stock straight, it seemed to do it on it's own. I don't know if the 7/16 square was too loose in the 5/8" hole or what. I have a nice burnished finish at least, even if it is on a bamboo shaped shaft, haha. I am going to make another one with two infeed supports, and a screw for adjusting the angle hopefully.
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7/16" square is .6187 across the corners. 5/8" = .626. Ergo, 5/8" is too big.
Furthermore, you don't need the square bigger than 3/8" for any of the usual arrow diameters. If you make the stock 3/8" square you get more shafts per board, cut off less with the router AND can use the socket and bolt setup to drive the shaft. Are you a glutton for punishment?
For 3/8" square, you need an input hole that is 33/64".
Jim
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7/16" square is .6187 across the corners. 5/8" = .626. Ergo, 5/8" is too big.
Furthermore, you don't need the square bigger than 3/8" for any of the usual arrow diameters. If you make the stock 3/8" square you get more shafts per board, cut off less with the router AND can use the socket and bolt setup to drive the shaft. Are you a glutton for punishment?
For 3/8" square, you need an input hole that is 33/64".
Jim
What I have been doing is doing tests before I cut the shaft blanks, and I guess cutting them a smudge above 7/16 I guess (don't have calipers so I am not sure how much) just until they fit snug in the 5/8th hole. Once I get a good fit, I will cut all the blanks... and then proceed to destroy them! :) The bad thing is all I have left is good straight grain wood, I don't have anything left that I don't feel bad to test on, lol. I had problems with the 3/8" blanks when I was using them ending up with flat spots, I was going for a 3/8 diameter end result though. By the way, can you generally substitute one brands drill chuck with another brand? I was thinking of trying to slap in a ryobo 1/2" drill chuck into my craftsman to replace it's 3/8" chuck.
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Yes, most chucks use the same thread--it has been 3/8-24 tpi right hand. If your chuck uses a key, put the handle of the chuck, or a rod in one of the holes in the circumference of the chuck and give the key a smack with a hammer in the direction that turns it in the way that will unscrew it.
If it is a keyless chuck, tighten it on the short arm of a 3/8 Allen wrench then smack the handle of the Allen wrench as suggested above for the key.
BTW, the technical term for "a litttle" bigger or long is "smidge," which is an abbreviation for "smidgeon."
Thought you would want to know...
Jim
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Yes, most chucks use the same thread--it has been 3/8-24 tpi right hand. If your chuck uses a key, put the handle of the chuck, or a rod in one of the holes in the circumference of the chuck and give the key a smack with a hammer in the direction that turns it in the way that will unscrew it.
If it is a keyless chuck, tighten it on the short arm of a 3/8 Allen wrench then smack the handle of the Allen wrench as suggested above for the key.
BTW, the technical term for "a litttle" bigger or long is "smidge," which is an abbreviation for "smidgeon."
Thought you would want to know...
Jim
Thank you, I will try that today.
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Before you try to get that chuck off look down it it there may be a screw in the bottom
If there is it is left handed thread and you will need to remove it first
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Yes, Buckeyeguy is right. Forgot about that. Very likely if the drill is reversible.
Jim
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The drill is reversable, thanks for the heads up guys!
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7/16" square is .6187 across the corners. 5/8" = .626. Ergo, 5/8" is too big.
Furthermore, you don't need the square bigger than 3/8" for any of the usual arrow diameters. If you make the stock 3/8" square you get more shafts per board, cut off less with the router AND can use the socket and bolt setup to drive the shaft. Are you a glutton for punishment?
For 3/8" square, you need an input hole that is 33/64".
Jim
Would you think 1/2" infeed would work for 3/8" square stock if I tried to cut my stock a smidgeon to a 64th or so undersized? Would I still be able to easily get 11/32 diameter end result with 23/64 square stock, without having flat spots ya think? I guess I am going to try it, and if not I will order me a 33/64 bit. You think the reason my results suck so bad is because I am not having a snug enough or secure enough fit to my infeed, so the stock is moving around a bunch? I checked and there does seem to be a good amount of play. So I am going to make me up 3 infeed blocks at 1/2", a block at 11/32 for the cut stock to guide through, and then a couple more guide blocks at 1/2" or so to keep the shaft stable. Does this sound ok? Sorry for all the questions, I'm sure your probably gettin tired of em, ;D. I moved the pivot like you suggested to as close to the router as I could. I was thinking, if I going to use this arm thing with the hole guides, of putting a bolt with a spring at the other end of the arm to where I could twist just a bit on the bolt to move the arm, in order to tune it so to speak.
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Would you think 1/2" infeed would work for 3/8" square stock if I tried to cut my stock a smidgeon to a 64th or so undersized? Would I still be able to easily get 11/32 diameter end result with 23/64 square stock, without having flat spots ya think?
ABSOLUTELY
I guess I am going to try it, and if not I will order me a 33/64 bit. You think the reason my results suck so bad is because I am not having a snug enough or secure enough fit to my infeed, so the stock is moving around a bunch?
AS ABOVE
I checked and there does seem to be a good amount of play. So I am going to make me up 3 infeed blocks at 1/2", a block at 11/32 for the cut stock to guide through, and then a couple more guide blocks at 1/2" or so to keep the shaft stable.
Does this sound ok? If you have one infeed block at the cutter that just slightly crushes the corners of the stock, more blocks are a waste of effort and a nuisance.
... I was thinking, if I going to use this arm thing with the hole guides, of putting a bolt with a spring at the other end of the arm to where I could twist just a bit on the bolt to move the arm, in order to tune it so to speak.Could be a help.
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Would you think 1/2" infeed would work for 3/8" square stock if I tried to cut my stock a smidgeon to a 64th or so undersized? Would I still be able to easily get 11/32 diameter end result with 23/64 square stock, without having flat spots ya think?
ABSOLUTELY
I guess I am going to try it, and if not I will order me a 33/64 bit. You think the reason my results suck so bad is because I am not having a snug enough or secure enough fit to my infeed, so the stock is moving around a bunch?
AS ABOVE
I checked and there does seem to be a good amount of play. So I am going to make me up 3 infeed blocks at 1/2", a block at 11/32 for the cut stock to guide through, and then a couple more guide blocks at 1/2" or so to keep the shaft stable.
Does this sound ok? If you have one infeed block at the cutter that just slightly crushes the corners of the stock, more blocks are a waste of effort and a nuisance.
... I was thinking, if I going to use this arm thing with the hole guides, of putting a bolt with a spring at the other end of the arm to where I could twist just a bit on the bolt to move the arm, in order to tune it so to speak.Could be a help.
Thank you once again, I am actually starting to get decent results. I would guess that it was indeed my infeed being way too loose. I did make 3 infeed blocks, but ended up gluing them all into one infeed block anyway. They are 1/2" holes, and fit the 3/8 (or might be slightly under 3/8) pretty good, good enough to use with the drill, but not if I was turning by hand. What I ended up doing for some reason or another is instead of adjusting the router by moving the arm horizontally, I have been adjusting the diameter of the shaft by adjusting the depth of the router bit. So the router bit only touches the stock on the bottom. The only thing is I am still getting all kinds of tear out with the douglas fir. ::) I am using a straight bit right now, I am going to pick up a rounded bit from home depot in a bit though and try that out. Hopefully the rounded bit will be easier on the douglas fir. The ash I have been doing is pretty good though. Even when I get it adjusted to get a burnished lacquered finish look, it still has little tiny scrape marks in it, which look like if you scratched glass. Which makes sense though, as the top of the router bit is not straight, it is slanted with a point, so I would think it would not leave a perfect finish.
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Thank you once again, I am actually starting to get decent results. I would guess that it was indeed my infeed being way too loose. I did make 3 infeed blocks, but ended up gluing them all into one infeed block anyway. Do you beat dead horses too??? Do you carry three spare tires???
They are 1/2" holes, and fit the 3/8 (or might be slightly under 3/8) pretty good, good enough to use with the drill, but not if I was turning by hand. What I ended up doing for some reason or another is instead of adjusting the router by moving the arm horizontally, I have been adjusting the diameter of the shaft by adjusting the depth of the router bit.
So the router bit only touches the stock on the bottom. The only thing is I am still getting all kinds of tear out with the douglas fir. ::) I am using a straight bit right now, I am going to pick up a rounded bit from home depot in a bit though and try that out. You are getting tearout because you have ignored good advice and have the bit cutting from underneath.Hopefully the rounded bit will be easier on the douglas fir. It might do better in this stubborn and foolish application.
The ash I have been doing is pretty good though. Even when I get it adjusted to get a burnished lacquered finish look, it still has little tiny scrape marks in it, which look like if you scratched glass. Which makes sense though, as the top of the router bit is not straight, it is slanted with a point, so I would think it would not leave a perfect finish.
You have been told how to get a perfect finish, but you persist in ignoring that advice. This router setup was not my invention, as I said at the outset. I have found it to work perfectly every time with a straight cutter that is cutting on the side, and at the side of the shaft. You finally came around to my advice on the input hole, EXCEPT for making a long strung-out series of three blocks.
I see no point in further efforts to help. You ask for help and advice, then ignore it. I was a machinist for 10 years and have made parts and machines at home for the last 25 years. I have not been just making up things that I think might work. I have been using a router setup for at least 15 years and have found useful ways to improve it. You're on your own as far as I'm concerned--though someone else will probably try to help while you reinvent this doweling setup.
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Thank you once again, I am actually starting to get decent results. I would guess that it was indeed my infeed being way too loose. I did make 3 infeed blocks, but ended up gluing them all into one infeed block anyway. Do you beat dead horses too??? Do you carry three spare tires???
They are 1/2" holes, and fit the 3/8 (or might be slightly under 3/8) pretty good, good enough to use with the drill, but not if I was turning by hand. What I ended up doing for some reason or another is instead of adjusting the router by moving the arm horizontally, I have been adjusting the diameter of the shaft by adjusting the depth of the router bit.
So the router bit only touches the stock on the bottom. The only thing is I am still getting all kinds of tear out with the douglas fir. ::) I am using a straight bit right now, I am going to pick up a rounded bit from home depot in a bit though and try that out. You are getting tearout because you have ignored good advice and have the bit cutting from underneath.Hopefully the rounded bit will be easier on the douglas fir. It might do better in this stubborn and foolish application.
The ash I have been doing is pretty good though. Even when I get it adjusted to get a burnished lacquered finish look, it still has little tiny scrape marks in it, which look like if you scratched glass. Which makes sense though, as the top of the router bit is not straight, it is slanted with a point, so I would think it would not leave a perfect finish.
You have been told how to get a perfect finish, but you persist in ignoring that advice. This router setup was not my invention, as I said at the outset. I have found it to work perfectly every time with a straight cutter that is cutting on the side, and at the side of the shaft. You finally came around to my advice on the input hole, EXCEPT for making a long strung-out series of three blocks.
I see no point in further efforts to help. You ask for help and advice, then ignore it. I was a machinist for 10 years and have made parts and machines at home for the last 25 years. I have not been just making up things that I think might work. I have been using a router setup for at least 15 years and have found useful ways to improve it. You're on your own as far as I'm concerned--though someone else will probably try to help while you reinvent this doweling setup.
Well either way I appreciate it, sorry if I somehow offended you.
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Don't give up
You will get there
Yes most folks use the side rather than the end of the bit
Different strokes for different Folks
If we all do everything the same we would be a boring lot for sure
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Don't give up
You will get there
Yes most folks use the side rather than the end of the bit
Different strokes for different Folks
If we all do everything the same we would be a boring lot for sure
Thank ya Guy, :). Well I finally got it working pretty good. I don't have calipers at the moment, but my outfeed hole was drilled with a 11/32 bit, so hopefully they are somewhere around there. I picked up a round over bit, and that seemed to do the trick just fine. My homemade spine tester only goes up to 75#, so they are somewhere over 75# is all I know, haha. At least the doug fir are. The ash seem a lot lighter in spine, I haven't tested any ash though. I do set the bit under the square stock and raise and lower to get the right thickness diameter, kind of off to the side and under, but it was not like my big anarchistic idea or anything, my router bit just kept falling in it's housing due to being to loose in the housing, so eventually when I was messing around with it, I got it working, and looked and somehow the bit was below the shaft, haha. I do know some people have did it that way from scouring the net though, this guy does apparently: http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=215027&category=88
Here's how I had it at when I was using it below the shaft, you can see the tip sticking over the edge a bit:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3655.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3655.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3656.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3656.jpg.html)
It was cutting ok (better than the pictured shafts), but giving me little scratches and horrible tear out in the douglas fir still:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3648.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3648.jpg.html)
After putting a 1/4" round over bit in it tonight, my results were a lot better. This is what I am getting now:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3657.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3657.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3660.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3660.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3664.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3664.jpg.html)
If only they were not all spining too light for the bow I was wanting to make arrows for, ::). So I guess the doug fir at 11/32 will need a good deal more sanding to reach around 45lbs or so, so the finish really don't matter anyway. I am quite happy I finally got this stuff cutting without tear out though. I tried cutting them using a jig similar to the 30 dollar veritas pencil sharpener thingy, tried using a bandsaw (and ruined two blades, the lenox carbide blade still has me kicking myself in the arse), and finally got something working on the cheapest router I could find. I am definitely a fan of the router for woods that tear out easy. I picked up a 5/16" bit too, so I guess I will make an arm for that diameter as well, as well as one for 1/2" shafts for warbows. This was a lot of fun, thank you everyone for the help, it is amply appreciated as always.
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I all ways used the round overs and they did fine for me , 3/8 or bigger seem to do the best for me
It has been 15 or more years since I have used this method so some things are a little fussy , but I was just thinking the rotation of the drill as compared to the rotation and side the bit is on seems to make a difference also , what some folks call climb cutting can be smother but if not set up right it can be dangerous
Looks like you have it now so keep going !
Guy
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I all ways used the round overs and they did fine for me , 3/8 or bigger seem to do the best for me
It has been 15 or more years since I have used this method so some things are a little fussy , but I was just thinking the rotation of the drill as compared to the rotation and side the bit is on seems to make a difference also , what some folks call climb cutting can be smother but if not set up right it can be dangerous
Looks like you have it now so keep going !
Guy
Oh yeah, I shot a couple shafts out when I was playing around with it, haha. Since the router bit goes counter clockwise when upside down in the table, I run the shaft on the left side. If I tried climb cutting as it's called I guess, I'm sure I would end up shooting all kinds of shafts right in the direction of my water heater, :). Yeah, my "stubborn and foolish application" (don't really get that one myself, seeing as I've done squat different than anyone else??? but anyway... ;D) is working awesome, they come out perfect, looking lacquered. I am definitely a router fan for sure.
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I love it when a plan comes together !
Hope the water heater is OK !
Guy
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3/8 or bigger seem to do the best for me
I got a pack of 4 ryobi round overs, 1/8" to 1/2", for only 20 bucks. Where all the other bits were 30 bucks for one (at HD). Good deal I think, they seem to do just fine.