Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: The Zen Master on April 16, 2020, 08:57:55 am
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What, exactly, makes a bow a "Primitive Bow"?
I ask this because many of the bows I see here could never be produced, with primitive resources or tools.
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Don't worry about it. ;)
Many of the bows on here could actually be made with primitive tools and lots of time.
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There used to be surveys in Primitive Archer magazine on this very question.
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that depends on your opinion of primitive.
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In my point of view a REAL primitive bow is one made with only hand tools and no use of synthetisterials such as shelac, pva glue, dacron, ect.
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In my point of view a REAL primitive bow is one made with only hand tools and no use of synthetisterials such as shelac, pva glue, dacron, ect.
I agree with your definition, but a minor issue or critique?
Shellac is actually a natural product and has been in use in India for 3000+ years
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In my point of view a REAL primitive bow is one made with only hand tools and no use of synthetisterials such as shelac, pva glue, dacron, ect.
Even this definition could be criticized if not using stone tools and techniques to gather the materials.
If you make a high performance recurve using all primitive tools and techniques, is it still primitive? For the sake of this forum I think a more broad and loose definition of all wood bows or even self bows is helpful and inclusive.
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I use no power tools and no more than an axe, wood file, and sand paper. I often grab a sharp flake when I'm working my bows. I work them green, as I think most prehistoric Northern Native Americans did. All my arrows I make with obsidian, including the foreshaft hole I drill out and knocks. That includes cutting the plant to begin with. Could I use a serrated knife, sure but what fun is that? Grab my little serrated obsidian flake and i'll have that puppy cut in 20 seconds. This is what I like though, and that's why I do it. I don't NEED to be primitive but I enjoy the challenge of learning that process. That takes nothing away from those who use power tools, just want to make that clear.
I steam reflex all my bows (semi-green), no heat guns or anything. I don't own a whatcha m'a call it "bow horse" or whatever. I like simplicity and don't have the room quite honest for a plethora of tools. Never used a draw knife! I do own one though that my friend gave me.
I really don't think it took them much longer than we take to make our bows. Maybe not the sheephorn/sinew bows of the Rocky Mountains (thats just plain time consuming primitive or not). The ingenuity and skill with their tools would have been interesting to see.
Nothing against those who use power tools, we live in a modern world, but the word Primitive on this website (at times) could use a small little asterisk next to it. Oh boy I hope I'm not offending anyone! I enjoy looking at all the different bow types on this website and I think that diversity is great.
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As far as a REAL Primitive Bow. That would be one that was made in centuries past. Most are either in museums or rotting in the ground.
Anything else is a recreation no matter how you make it.
Bjrogg
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So a bow with a shelf is as primitive as any other made with a bandsaw and steel I reckon. Good to know.
HH~
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I agree with BJ, we are re-creating bows of the past. Since none of us has a "time machine" to take us back however far, we use the materials and equipment we have available or choose. Look how quickly the eastern Natives adopted firearms when they became available. The use of natural materials for the bow and the copying of a design of the past. Most of us don't know how to make cordage and very likely much of the thread used to make strings was done on a spinning wheel. Have fun, for most of us it is a hobby :BB :-M (AT) (SH) )P(
Hawkdancer
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In the day and age of computer everything, online shopping and everything else. I would think any bow not made with CNC machines aluminum and carbon fiber would be considered primitive. If it's one piece of wood? prehistoric....
The argument of what is more primitive in 2020 is futile at best. Does something made with primitive tools make it more primitive? I don't think it does. Does it really matter how you arrive at the same place as long as you get there? I often find these discussions hilarious. "Who's techniques are more primitive?" Who cares. Unless you live in a cave without electricity, no vehicle or modern convenience it's all hypocrisy anyway. If you do, how would you know this discussion was going on?
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I would say the bows made by current basically stone age tribes count as primitive, even if rudimentary metal tools may be used.
The Sentinel Island people for example.
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I use no power tools and no more than an axe, wood file, and sand paper. I often grab a sharp flake when I'm working my bows. I work them green, as I think most prehistoric Northern Native Americans did. All my arrows I make with obsidian, including the foreshaft hole I drill out and knocks. That includes cutting the plant to begin with. Could I use a serrated knife, sure but what fun is that? Grab my little serrated obsidian flake and i'll have that puppy cut in 20 seconds. This is what I like though, and that's why I do it. I don't NEED to be primitive but I enjoy the challenge of learning that process. That takes nothing away from those who use power tools, just want to make that clear.
I steam reflex all my bows (semi-green), no heat guns or anything. I don't own a whatcha m'a call it "bow horse" or whatever. I like simplicity and don't have the room quite honest for a plethora of tools. Never used a draw knife! I do own one though that my friend gave me.
I really don't think it took them much longer than we take to make our bows. Maybe not the sheephorn/sinew bows of the Rocky Mountains (thats just plain time consuming primitive or not). The ingenuity and skill with their tools would have been interesting to see.
Nothing against those who use power tools, we live in a modern world, but the word Primitive on this website (at times) could use a small little asterisk next to it. Oh boy I hope I'm not offending anyone! I enjoy looking at all the different bow types on this website and I think that diversity is great.
Now THAT is what I am talking about.
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So a bow with a shelf is as primitive as any other made with a bandsaw and steel I reckon. Good to know.
HH~
The way I see it Shawn. Unless of course it was made several centuries ago. Then it might be more primitive.
Bjrogg
PS Now if you ask me if you get a different type of bow with hand tools. That would be a different question. I do use mostly hand tools only because I like them and find they fit a bowyer very well.
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In the day and age of computer everything, online shopping and everything else. I would think any bow not made with CNC machines aluminum and carbon fiber would be considered primitive. If it's one piece of wood? prehistoric....
The argument of what is more primitive in 2020 is futile at best. Does something made with primitive tools make it more primitive? I don't think it does. Does it really matter how you arrive at the same place as long as you get there? I often find these discussions hilarious. "Who's techniques are more primitive?" Who cares. Unless you live in a cave without electricity, no vehicle or modern convenience it's all hypocrisy anyway. If you do, how would you know this discussion was going on?
Lets just say that I do not believe that Primitive people were making Home Depot board bows or and laminated bows that require machined surfaces to glue-up?
No offense to any of that just, I don't really see too many primitive bows here.
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that depends on your opinion of primitive.
This is my opinion of primitive - from Merriam Webster...
Definition of primitive
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a : not derived : original, primary
b : assumed as a basis especially : axiomatic primitive concepts
2a : of or relating to the earliest age or period : primeval the primitive church
b : closely approximating an early ancestral type : little evolved primitive mammals
c : belonging to or characteristic of an early stage of development : crude, rudimentary primitive technology
d : of, relating to, or constituting the assumed parent speech of related languages primitive Germanic
3a : elemental, natural our primitive feelings of vengeance— John Mackwood
b now sometimes offensive : of, relating to, or produced by a people or culture that is nonindustrial and often nonliterate and tribal primitive art
c : naive
d(1) : self-taught, untutored primitive craftsmen
(2) : produced by a self-taught artist a primitive painting
primitive noun
Definition of primitive (Entry 2 of 2)
1a : something primitive specifically : a primitive idea, term, or proposition
b : a root word
2a(1) : an artist of an early period of a culture or artistic movement
(2) : a later imitator or follower of such an artist
b(1) : a self-taught artist
(2) : an artist whose work is marked by directness and naïveté
c : a work of art produced by a primitive artist
d : a typically rough or simple usually handmade and antique home accessory or furnishing
3a : a member of a primitive people
b : an unsophisticated person
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" Just because it's primitive does not mean it has to be crude" A friend of the late Dean Torges.
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Yes, it is a futile argument, but many bowyers here fell trees with a hatchet, carve the bows out with the same tool, finish them with a knife and scraper, use linen string and linen-seed-oil with wax and I would say those technologies go back at least 4000 years (in metal) and much further in stone tools. When I took my kids to the Roman life exhibition in a local museum they said " look Dad they use the same tools you do"
Be encouraged, most bows here are made with traditional tools and you are part of one of the most ancient crafts on the planet. Woah, that got deep all ofa sudden, huh?
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that depends on your opinion of primitive.
This is my opinion of primitive - from Merriam Webster...
Definition of primitive
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a : not derived : original, primary
b : assumed as a basis especially : axiomatic primitive concepts
2a : of or relating to the earliest age or period : primeval the primitive church
b : closely approximating an early ancestral type : little evolved primitive mammals
c : belonging to or characteristic of an early stage of development : crude, rudimentary primitive technology
d : of, relating to, or constituting the assumed parent speech of related languages primitive Germanic
3a : elemental, natural our primitive feelings of vengeance— John Mackwood
b now sometimes offensive : of, relating to, or produced by a people or culture that is nonindustrial and often nonliterate and tribal primitive art
c : naive
d(1) : self-taught, untutored primitive craftsmen
(2) : produced by a self-taught artist a primitive painting
primitive noun
Definition of primitive (Entry 2 of 2)
1a : something primitive specifically : a primitive idea, term, or proposition
b : a root word
2a(1) : an artist of an early period of a culture or artistic movement
(2) : a later imitator or follower of such an artist
b(1) : a self-taught artist
(2) : an artist whose work is marked by directness and naïveté
c : a work of art produced by a primitive artist
d : a typically rough or simple usually handmade and antique home accessory or furnishing
3a : a member of a primitive people
b : an unsophisticated person
Most self bows and a good many laminate bows on this site fall into the definition of primitive. I was reviewing posts here and had not seen any bows that you made, primitive or otherwise. It begs the question, why is it so important what other people are doing?
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I am a graduate art history student, and in class when discussing cultures that don't have industrialized societies we tend to say culture with "long standing traditions" instead of "primitive." primitive is a rather arbitrary term with a history of racist connotations. So I guess really there are no primitive bows, just ones made using ancient traditional styles and techniques. So I guess it just comes down to how much of a purist you want to be. Or if you want to be a purist at all.
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Forgot to add, Ancient eastern Mediterranean peoples, Egyptians and other Eastern peoples were laminating bows in the early and high Bronze Ages
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Guys living in bark huts were also managing to laminate bows in Eurasia.
The question is why the OP asks this question when he himself has yet to even attempt a bow?
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I like diversity of opinion. Almost everyone of ya have a different opinion.
Dont think any are more less or correct than any other.
🤙🏽
HH
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Well except the guy who hasn't made a bow yet.
He is like a woman who has never had a child holding forth on the differences between natural and c section.
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In the day and age of computer everything, online shopping and everything else. I would think any bow not made with CNC machines aluminum and carbon fiber would be considered primitive. If it's one piece of wood? prehistoric....
The argument of what is more primitive in 2020 is futile at best. Does something made with primitive tools make it more primitive? I don't think it does. Does it really matter how you arrive at the same place as long as you get there? I often find these discussions hilarious. "Who's techniques are more primitive?" Who cares. Unless you live in a cave without electricity, no vehicle or modern convenience it's all hypocrisy anyway. If you do, how would you know this discussion was going on?
Who cares? I do because its interesting. Walking 8 miles into the wilderness and cutting out a juniper stave with an axe taught me more about the qualities/characterisitics/etc. of juniper than ordering that stave on Ebay. AGAIN, this doesn't make me better than the dude who orders his online. BUT, to say my journey to that juniper tree is pointless because we both ended up with a juniper bow..... well now? Its all in the journey.
I am not trying to be more primitive than the next hippy dude (joke), its just a challenge and that's fun. Expressing how you make a bow in a primitive way is just showcasing how you make it. Just as many of ya'll will explain the process of heat treating or laminating woods together. We are only expressing our technique because after all this website is called:" "Primitive Archer".
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I like diversity of opinion. Almost everyone of ya have a different opinion.
Dont think any are more less or correct than any other.
🤙🏽
HH
yeah its really cool to look at all of this!
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I would say that i think a bow primitive is is a bow where the creator does not mean to make it complicated, does not mean to put frills on it, does not take shortcuts, and does not ask too much of the wood. he means to make it simple and doesn't care how fast it shoots or how good it looks. in my mind, primitive is when the creator takes his idea and emotion of simplicity and puts it all into his bow.
and thats also what i think makes something special. when the creator puts his idea and emotion into something and even maybe his love of the process and of it.
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Well except the guy who hasn't made a bow yet.
He is like a woman who has never had a child holding forth on the differences between natural and c section.
What a moronic thing to say; something I would expect to hear from a 14-yr old. I had no clue my inquiry would inspire this kind of defensiveness FFS.
Have a great time with your forum.
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I think the word "primitive" is a crappy word to describe making wooden bows and I get tired of the constant bickering and judgement that gets attached to it. "Traditional" would be a better word but that already has a definition in the archery world. To me, the bottom line is that we have a loose but supportive community of people that like to make bows out of wood and mostly natural materials. I don't see any value in trying to slice and dice that already small community into tiny factions based on small differences in how we make our bows. I think it's totally fine for each of us to have different styles and aesthetics. If someone says they love primitive bows and they make them all with stone tools, that's awesome. Someone like that has my respect. But as soon as that person starts bashing everyone else's work because it doesn't live up to their arbitrary standards then we have a problem. We all do this for our own reasons and I think it's entirely possible for us to share the same community space and support each other's work even if we use different tools and materials. I see bows sometimes that make me cringe on the inside, but I'll never say that to the builder. What's the point? I'll say what I like about it, give advice if they ask for it or just scroll on past it if I don't have anything valuable to say. There are bows I see that I would never have chosen to make but I can see the skill or artistry that went into them and appreciate them for what they are, even if it doesn't float my boat. Do what you like and don't worry too much about how other people are enjoying their craft.
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Well except the guy who hasn't made a bow yet.
He is like a woman who has never had a child holding forth on the differences between natural and c section.
What a moronic thing to say; something I would expect to hear from a 14-yr old. I had no clue my inquiry would inspire this kind of defensiveness FFS.
Have a great time with your forum.
It didn't really come across as an inquiry.
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Weylin you make a good point. When you talk about bashing one an other. I obviously prefer making native style bows and I use more “traditional” methods. I have huge respect for the talented folks on here some who have more experience making bows than I have been alive.. Yes I do drive my modem car to the trailhead when off to get juniper. I’m not crazy I realize I’m a modern man.I don’t get bashed on here but often it’s comments such as Handfoged ssaid that bothers me. If more primitive bowyers think their above folks who use modern tools that’s just silly. But at the same time don’t tell me I’m lost trying to make “primitive bow” in the year 2020. That’s equally silly.
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Weylin you make a good point. When you talk about bashing one an other. I obviously prefer making native style bows and I use more “traditional” methods. I have huge respect for the talented folks on here some who have more experience making bows than I have been alive.. Yes I do drive my modem car to the trailhead when off to get juniper. I’m not crazy I realize I’m a modern man.I don’t get bashed on here but often it’s comments such as Handfoged ssaid that bothers me. If more primitive bowyers think their above folks who use modern tools that’s just silly. But at the same time don’t tell me I’m lost trying to make “primitive bow” in the year 2020. That’s equally silly.
I'm with you. You should be able to proudly share your process, and doubtless you'll find many who admire your work and how you got there, including me. There's a difference between feeling pride and satisfaction with how you build your bows and looking down on others for doing it differently, which I think you appreciate.
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It takes time and experience to learn making natural material bows.The more you make or break of the different styles/designs/and different types of wood the more insight you have period.The more appreciation you have in looking at someone else's work.Knowing what needed to be done to get what is shown.It's amazing how many more bows and experience I was able to get making bows getting a band saw,but still using hand tools to fine tune.It's not about the tools used either but how they are used with an educated eye for a success.
Goals are goals no matter how different they are.
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It takes time and experience to learn making natural material bows.The more you make or break of the different styles/designs/and different types of wood the more insight you have period.The more appreciation you have in looking at someone else's work.Knowing what needed to be done to get what is shown.It's amazing how many more bows and experience I was able to get making bows getting a band saw,but still using hand tools to fine tune.It's not about the tools used either but how they are used with an educated eye for a success.
Goals are goals no matter how different they are.
Well said
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It's just a word. A thousand years from now compounds will be "primitive".
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I don't think either one of us will care by then.
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I feel for a True "Primitive" bow,the method of manufacture would be as important as the material..If people dont want to put in to that,its OK,,They can still enjoy archery and its manufacture,in any way and under any other name they desire...
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Mayhap, "traditional" or "archaic" would be better terms for our craft! If you wish to go "aboriginal" using only stone tools, good for you! That doesn't make your bow any more traditional than the one I made using a bandsaw, and scraping with a Buck hunting knife, and decorating with a rawhide Meare Heath style wrapping. To each his/her own! Next comment is: "who the hell cares! The bow shoots good or it doesn't". Btw, you cannot use a term to define itself, perhaps those were examples of usage.
Hawkdancer
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We must be going stir crazy or suffering severe cabin fever! >:D >:D (lol) (S). I got almost 2 feet of snow this week!
Hawkdancer
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In the day and age of computer everything, online shopping and everything else. I would think any bow not made with CNC machines aluminum and carbon fiber would be considered primitive. If it's one piece of wood? prehistoric....
The argument of what is more primitive in 2020 is futile at best. Does something made with primitive tools make it more primitive? I don't think it does. Does it really matter how you arrive at the same place as long as you get there? I often find these discussions hilarious. "Who's techniques are more primitive?" Who cares. Unless you live in a cave without electricity, no vehicle or modern convenience it's all hypocrisy anyway. If you do, how would you know this discussion was going on?
Lets just say that I do not believe that Primitive people were making Home Depot board bows or and laminated bows that require machined surfaces to glue-up?
No offense to any of that just, I don't really see too many primitive bows here.
And yet we have numerous examples in museums of radically decrowned bows, and what is that, but a board? There are many examples of early bows made from split out pieces of wood from felled trees and standing trees. And what are those? Boards.
Well except the guy who hasn't made a bow yet.
He is like a woman who has never had a child holding forth on the differences between natural and c section.
What a moronic thing to say; something I would expect to hear from a 14-yr old. I had no clue my inquiry would inspire this kind of defensiveness FFS.
Have a great time with your forum.
I'd like to point out to you that we have no toleration for name-calling and insults on this forum. Furthermore, this is a family forum and your "FFS" is unwelcome in here and if you cannot act like in a civil and adult manner then you may continue to find your welcome here greatly strained.
Perhaps this forum is not for you. Especially when we have actual 14 yr old members that are capable of carrying on adult conversations without being insulting.
Good day, sir.
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This may be helpful... no it won't....yes it will...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ&t=20s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ&t=20s)
Del
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Oh Del, I enjoyed that, what a great way to break the tension
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Cool Del...I always liked Monty Python.
I guess to sum up this senseless conversation is to just say....It's Archery !@#$%^&*()_+!!!!! Appreciate it or leave it.
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This may be helpful... no it won't....yes it will...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ&t=20s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ&t=20s)
Del
Loved it Del. Or didn’t I, I did. No I didn’t. Yes I did.
Bjrogg
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Looks like he has moved on...no great loss I guess. Lot's of opinions, no action
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Looks like he has moved on...no great loss I guess. Lot's of opinions, no action
Pity he didn't take that great big long stick he was using to stir the pot and tried tillering a bow out of it.
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hey i did get some use out of it.
this thread made me challenge and reevaluate some of my own thoughts and opinions that weren't very well thought out.