Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: superdav95 on February 16, 2022, 02:22:48 pm
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Hello. All. My most recent build is a hickory mollegabet style bow with flipped tips. Trying something different with this one. At least for me anyway. Keeping this one as natural as I can. I’m backing with sinew from blackstrap of deer approx 70grams (35 grams per limb). The Buffalo horn strips are approx 1/8” thick. All sinew backing and horn is glued on with sturgeon bladder glue. I’ve noticed after some testing with this stuff that it’s strong glue! No worries of this not holding. Glued several pieces of test scrap wood (maple) 3 sections were kiln dried and 3 were naturally dried approx 8 months. All pieces were sanded with 30 grit drum sander. On each piece except one the break happened at the base of the vice at the unglued portion of the wood. I think it was my fault in glue up on that one. Each peice also grooved with hacksaw blade in no matching grooves. Not exactly scientifically done but I was convinced that this glue was good enough for me. The gel time was nice too for when I did the layers of sinew. I was able to have the time to work and smooth out the sinew with the added gel time. This bow bellied with Buffalo horn strips that were grooved along with belly wood of bow as well with non matching grooves. Mating surfaces were sized 7 times after heating up bow and horn slightly. Made a jig for glue up of horn. Had good squeeze out all way around. The sinew was layed in 3 bundles equal weighted and separated for each limb. Each bundle had been washed with dawn and soaked overnight and washed. The gel time was nice. Didn’t feel I was rushed. Was able to get it quite smooth. I think I will cover with thin raw hide or maybe try some hog gut backing or ordered. Just waiting for it all to dry now. Bow dimensions is 64” tip to tip. Reflexed braced at 6.5” while sinew applied.
I’ll post some pics here in this build along. Enjoy and thanks for looking.
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More pics…
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More pics… You can see the grooves on the close up of the horn glue up near the tip.
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More pics. I wrapped the base of the lever tips where sinew ends to prevent lift up.
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Couple Short vids…
This is just after laying sinew
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bYStfTWUUcEovunAA
This is just after horn glue up showing jig
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VftJ73pZQc6Adq1U9
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Interesting! I'm about to get started on my first molle style bow, juniper/sinew. Hope it turns out as pretty as yours!
If I may ask, why the backing and belly? Are you doing this as sort of a test model? Hickory wouldn't seem to need belly or back reinforcement most of the time.
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Thanks man. Best of luck on yours too. I just wanted to try something different I guess with the horn on belly. I’ve done some sinew backed and they turned out well but love the look and sexy look of the horn. It does probably add some compression I think. I did some testing on other bows and it didn’t add anything significant performance but didn’t hurt it either. It’s probably a balance trade off with added mass I figure. I kept it thin nonetheless and I like the look it gives. The real performance will come from the bow itself and added sinew I suspect.
Thanks for looking.
Cheers
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Your plan looks good.Figured you were up to something with that second pair of horns.Been down this road times before.You'll like it.I always like seeing the qualities horn and sinew can give to a bow.There's a reason and story behind all my builds posted in the past.
Bow will last you a life time for sure.
I usually did mine sinewing in stages after applying the horn.Reflexing a bit more after every sinewing.Usually a week apart.
It'll work out fine this way too.
Sinew job looks great.Glad you like your glue.
Side tillering tweaking might be an option on yours.Don't know how wide your limbs are.That'll help reduce mass and improve performance too.
You'll get your template here for future dimensions on more of the same.A bow like that can easily be pulled to 30".
Whatever way you decorate it up I'm sure will look great.
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Thats just bada$$, cant wait to see it bending
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Thanks Ed. Very kind. Actually I ordered more horn from a wholesale seller in bulk. Save some money. I had planned on using your second set you sent me but one of then snapped on me! I was flexing it too much I guess and it broke on an inclusion spot unseen until it broke. Blessing in disguise I guess as I would not have know inclusion was there and used it on a bow and had a failure. I’ll make good use of the pieces anyway as tip overlays and side overlays like my last bamboo horn bow. I liked the way that looked in the end. As for sinew I was torn. I was gonna do like you done and then decided to try this method. It went very clean and slick. Probably the nicest sinew work I’ve done but it’s all looks till it breaks or fails. Proof is in the puddin. The premeasured combed strips soaked in fish glue worked like a dream if you haven’t tried it I would recommend it. I sized the bow several times and heat up bow wood slightly to get good soak into wood fibers with thin glue. That alone took few days to do. I think I’ll be good. It looks supper solid to me. I had tillered the bow prior to horn glue up and then after to about 24”. Didn’t want to go too much more till I got sinew on there. Side tiller is an option but hoping I may be pretty close. I was extremely careful maybe overly so with layering the sinew and positioning the layers symmetric to each limb and weight. I didn’t sinew the tips as they are static and to save mass there. I’ve read some of your earlier posts and love the look of your with the horn too. Not sure how much gain I’ll get in performance with the use of horn but hoping for a bit. If anything it looks sweet.
Thanks again
Cheers
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Thats just bada$$, cant wait to see it bending
Thanks man. Me too!
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That is a very cool build! I look forward to the finished bow and seeing how it shoots. Best of luck with it and thanks for posting your build.
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I always like the dry stripped moose or elk leg sinew.Turns pliable instantly into moisture.Takes on hide glue very well and I have no problem about it gelling too fast the way I do it.Melds well after applying.After curing that stuff can look like a solid matrix of sinew.
After making enough of them I usually just took the core bow to brace/aligned well and that's it.No need to stress the limbs.Take measurements of core.Have horn ready to thickness and tapered to apply the horn on a reflex.Take measurements.Then apply the sinew reflexing farther to certain thickness to get overall thickness that I want.That gets me within a very close range of my draw weight.
Very little horn removal to get to my draw weight.
Thicker the horn the less set it'll take.It'll be more time to tame down and stabilize though as horn is more elastic than wood.
A good ratio is 25% horn/25% sinew/and 50% wood or close to those parameters.Those ratios will give you less trouble.
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Looks like a great start! I'll be following along.
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I always like the dry stripped moose or elk leg sinew.Turns pliable instantly into moisture.Takes on hide glue very well and I have no problem about it gelling too fast the way I do it.Melds well after applying.After curing that stuff can look like a solid matrix of sinew.
After making enough of them I usually just took the core bow to brace/aligned well and that's it.No need to stress the limbs.Take measurements of core.Have horn ready to thickness and tapered to apply the horn on a reflex.Take measurements.Then apply the sinew reflexing farther to certain thickness to get overall thickness that I want.That gets me within a very close range of my draw weight.
Very little horn removal to get to my draw weight.
Thicker the horn the less set it'll take.It'll be more time to tame down and stabilize though as horn is more elastic than wood.
A good ratio is 25% horn/25% sinew/and 50% wood or close to those parameters.Those ratios will give you less trouble.
Ed. Thanks for the feedback and input. Very helpful. Doesn’t look like I’m too far off the dimensions you stated as far as ratios. It’ll be a good shooter think. I did the same as you mention and glued up horn in the reflexed bow state also. My thinking there was to get the most out of the horn without stressing it too much when applying the sinew and more reflex. My first horn and sinew wood bow so taking my time with it. My measurements on this one are 64” ttt. limbs are 1 3/4” at the widest tapered down to 1 1/2” just before the levers start. The levers are thin and light. They are just under 1/2” thick and 11” long. I’m gonna take some thickness measurements as well when sinew drys up. It looks like I’m close to the right ratio though.
Btw. How long do you let it sit to dry after sinew???
Cheers Dave
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Looks like a great start! I'll be following along.
thanks man!
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At 70 grams or around 1100 grains on the length of limbs and handle it should be a strong 1/8" thick or maybe 5/32".You've got plenty of width there I'd say.
At least 5 months.Better 6 months.
It's a waiting game for sure.In the past I would just make other bows while it's curing.I do have some roughed out ready to tiller.
You can bend it some after 3 months to adjust questionable tiller or alignment if you want without hurting anything and let it cure more.I've never needed to do that though.
Measuring it thickness wise after a couple of months should reveal things to you.It'll continue to cure a good 10 months or more all together.There's more that goes on curing than just physical weight moisture loss.A bonding process so to say.All those little molecules bonding and aligning finding their place....ha ha.
I've got one sinewed here on a 3' stretch of handle and limbs with the first layer put on in the middle of august.3rd layer on in the middle of september.2 weeks apart for each layer.Just before hunting season here.About the same amount of sinew.It's coming to 6 months of waiting now on that one.
Tiller it soon within a month here.As soon as it warms up in the shop....ha ha.No horn on this one.62" TTT.Reflexed a bit.Going for a happy medium length bow.Levers are around 13 inches long 3/4" wide at base/9/16" thick and a scooch under 1/2" wide/1/2" thick at tips.Working portion of limbs are around the same length wise.A scooch under 1 and 3/4" at fades and a scooch over 1 and 1/4" at fade base of lever.
Overall a little more aggressive width taper on the working limb.It's winged elm.Not quite as dense as my hickory.
Don't want to hi jack your thread here as your project deserves all the exposure it deserves.Good project showing attention to detail etc.
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Looking good Dave. I’m watching (-P
Bjrogg
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At 70 grams or around 1100 grains on the length of limbs and handle it should be a strong 1/8" thick or maybe 5/32".You've got plenty of width there I'd say.
At least 5 months.Better 6 months.
It's a waiting game for sure.In the past I would just make other bows while it's curing.I do have some roughed out ready to tiller.
You can bend it some after 3 months to adjust questionable tiller or alignment if you want without hurting anything and let it cure more.I've never needed to do that though.
Measuring it thickness wise after a couple of months should reveal things to you.It'll continue to cure a good 10 months or more all together.There's more that goes on curing than just physical weight moisture loss.A bonding process so to say.All those little molecules bonding and aligning finding their place....ha ha.
I've got one sinewed here on a 3' stretch of handle and limbs with the first layer put on in the middle of august.3rd layer on in the middle of september.2 weeks apart for each layer.Just before hunting season here.About the same amount of sinew.It's coming to 6 months of waiting now on that one.
Tiller it soon within a month here.As soon as it warms up in the shop....ha ha.No horn on this one.62" TTT.Reflexed a bit.Going for a happy medium length bow.Levers are around 13 inches long 3/4" wide at base/9/16" thick and a scooch under 1/2" wide/1/2" thick at tips.Working portion of limbs are around the same length wise.A scooch under 1 and 3/4" at fades and a scooch over 1 and 1/4" at fade base of lever.
Overall a little more aggressive width taper on the working limb.It's winged elm.Not quite as dense as my hickory.
Don't want to hi jack your thread here as your project deserves all the exposure it deserves.Good project showing attention to detail etc.
Thanks Ed. Very similar specs to my current build. Like you suggest I’ll give it a good 6 months to cure. I’m gonna try a thin raw hide backing or a hog gut backing when a couple weeks and then set it aside to cure. Have you ever used hog gut backing. I saw a guy online using it and I reached out so he has sent me some to test out. Not sure if I’ll use on this one yet and may just stick with rawhide. Any experience with hog gut?
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Looking good Dave. I’m watching (-P
Bjrogg
Thanks brother!
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Nope no hog gut using experience.Let us know what you think of it.
I've used thin deer rawhide,goat hide,snake skin,and birch bark in the past.
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Looks cool! Hope it works out for you.
Drying times and sinew rely on a few things. Not just final thickness but how you laid it down.
The Koreans lay their sinew in 1mm thick layers. 2 weeks drying time inbetween layers. This drastically shortens drying time and is a centuries proven method. I use this method now.
The long drying times are only necessary when you don't give the bow drying time inbetween layers. There is no difference in the finished bow.
1 mm thick - 2 weeks
2mm thick - 4 weeks
3mm thick - 9 weeks
4mm thick 16 weeks
5mm thick - 25 weeks
Drying times = thickness squared.
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Thanks bownarra. This is a great rule of thumb to go by. Thanks for the info! I’m gonna give it 4 weeks before I put my next layer on which will be my final layer. I saved my longest bundle for this. The sinew I put down already would have been close to 2 mm thick when I weighted it layed it down. I’ll give it 4 weeks like you say and stick with that schedule. Better safe then sorry. I’ll tighten up the reflex a bit upon laying last bundle. What are your thoughts on covering with thin ride hide, birch bark or leather after laying final layer? Should I give an addition 4 weeks before covering.
A few pics of the side profile of layers after 4 days drying.
Thanks again.
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Update on this bow build. Just put last layer of sinew on which brings my total sinew up to 75gr. Little more then I thought with goal of 70 gr but just the way it worked out in the end. Final layer of sinew was super long and cover the entire bending section of each limb. This particular sinew came from a deer back strap I harvested last season. It was a mature doe and kept every little bit of the silver skin I could from each strap. 26” long for both limbs. Served each end again with few loose strands to keep it down as it dries now. I’ll increase the reflex again too as it continues to dry with final layer. It currently close to 7.5-8”. I’d like to get close to 10-11” when dry. Spent the time to really comb well 2 layers first and soaked them with fish glue as before and allow to gel slightly then laid it on. Went smoothly. All sinew carefully measure dry weight prior and divided up for each limb. Glue was a dream to work with. Love this stuff. Gonna have to make more of this. I’m really enjoying this build. Would be a shame if it exploded! Anyway I digress…
Here’s a few more pics.
Cheers
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Sweeeet looking sinew job.
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Thanks. Ed.
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Nice clean neat work. That one should make quiet the shooter.
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Nice clean neat work. That one should make quiet the shooter.
Thanks bassman. I’m enjoying this build. This will be my best bow so far I think. I’ve got a few ideas for cosmetic touches later but I’m going for Ferrari on this one speed and performance as well as the beauty. I suspect it will be very fast and smooth shooting bow. Time to wait is killing me though. This final layer was crucial one to get perfect so I spent the time to get it rite. Just and waiting game now before I finish it up.
Thanks for looking
Cheers
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Excellent sinew job. That bow is going to be fast. Your attention nto details is to be commended. Looking forward to the finished bow. Great job so far!
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I like how that’s looking Dave. That should be a fast bow that’s very durable.
Thanks for sharing
Bjrogg
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Right...now you need more reflex ;)
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In the past on this type of build just before sinewing I usually put masking tape on the belly.I've read of horn cracking before while sinew is drying.Just a precaution anyway.
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so awsome Idea man and all in a molle shape. I love mollies must give you a tremendous speed
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Right...now you need more reflex ;)
I was hoping to get 10-11” reflex. Right now after few days after laying final layer I’ve got 9+”. Wil it get more as it dries or should I tighten the string to force it?
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In the past on this type of build just before sinewing I usually put masking tape on the belly.I've read of horn cracking before while sinew is drying.Just a precaution anyway.
Thank for suggestions Ed. Last horn bow I tried to put masking tape on ruined it by pulling fibres. I blame the cheap tape. I’ve heard the same thing with horn cracking under stress so it’s was my worry as well. I’ve been nervous of doing it again even with good 3m tape or painters tape for fear of pulling fibers. The bow still functions but it has a small spot of lighter colour in the section of horn where it pulled. Not sure if this is just a one off situation and would like to trust to do it again. What tape are you using to put on the horn. And have you ever seen tape do that before. I’ll try and take a picture of it if I can.
Found a pic. It’s not great but you can sort of see where it pulled a bit.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/25z2stSsv1dq1QDV9
Cheers
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so awsome Idea man and all in a molle shape. I love mollies must give you a tremendous speed
Thanks man. She’s build for speed. I love the molles too. They have a nice side profile I think.
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In the past on this type of build just before sinewing I usually put masking tape on the belly.I've read of horn cracking before while sinew is drying.Just a precaution anyway.
Thank for suggestions Ed. Last horn bow I tried to put masking tape on ruined it by pulling fibres. I blame the cheap tape. I’ve heard the same thing with horn cracking under stress so it’s was my worry as well. I’ve been nervous of doing it again even with good 3m tape or painters tape for fear of pulling fibers. The bow still functions but it has a small spot of lighter colour in the section of horn where it pulled. Not sure if this is just a one off situation and would like to trust to do it again. What tape are you using to put on the horn. And have you ever seen tape do that before. I’ll try and take a picture of it if I can.
Cheers
I just used a masking tape called frog tape for painting trim.I've never had it pull fibers of horn off or wood for that matter.It mostly helps before sinewing in that spilled or excess glue does not adhere to the belly any while sinewing.
I don't think it does as good a job as a strip of canvas and hide glue but I've never had any cracks ever develop.
If your humidity is'nt really low during drying I don't think there is a danger there.
Those cracks turn up mostly on wider bows.Like almost 2" wide.The sinew shrinks length wise and width wise.
I'm curious.What length of working limbs and what length of levers is on this bow?
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In the past on this type of build just before sinewing I usually put masking tape on the belly.I've read of horn cracking before while sinew is drying.Just a precaution anyway.
Thank for suggestions Ed. Last horn bow I tried to put masking tape on ruined it by pulling fibres. I blame the cheap tape. I’ve heard the same thing with horn cracking under stress so it’s was my worry as well. I’ve been nervous of doing it again even with good 3m tape or painters tape for fear of pulling fibers. The bow still functions but it has a small spot of lighter colour in the section of horn where it pulled. Not sure if this is just a one off situation and would like to trust to do it again. What tape are you using to put on the horn. And have you ever seen tape do that before. I’ll try and take a picture of it if I can.
Cheers
I just used a masking tape called frog tape for painting trim.I've never had it pull fibers of horn off or wood for that matter.It mostly helps before sinewing in that spilled or excess glue does not adhere to the belly any while sinewing.
I don't think it does as good a job as a strip of canvas and hide glue but I've never had any cracks ever develop.
If your humidity is'nt really low during drying I don't think there is a danger there.
Those cracks turn up mostly on wider bows.Like almost 2" wide.The sinew shrinks length wise and width wise.
I'm curious.What length of working limbs and what length of levers is on this bow?
Ya that tape is good stuff. I should have used that instead. I have some 3m stuff here but not likley as good as frog tape for removal as that’s the whole point of that stuff. I’ll try out some frog tape on some scrap horn and see how it goes to build confidence with it. I probably would have been fine to just warm the tape a little prior to removal. Oh well live and learn. The molle bow limbs are 1.75” at widest part out to 1.5” before they narrow in for levers. The working limb is about 17-18”. I measured from end of fade at base of limb to start of taper at the levers. Levers are 11” long.
Thanks for your feedback!
Cheers
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So I decided to increase reflex to 10.5”. Call it good till it dries and cures. This will end up with lots of reflex I suspect in the end.
Cheers