Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: iowabow on November 03, 2011, 10:38:56 am
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I am working on chasing rings on the wood and find the rings are forming a valley. I took a photo and used a flashlight to help show the hill tops and valleys. My question is will a u shaped back be a problem? Will I been doing something special to make this work.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03070535.jpg)
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I have no ring chasing experience but I am reading Pappy's "Life is Good" thread which as you probably know is a chronicle of life at Twin Oaks.
Most pictured bows have the approximate shape of a roller coaster and are snakey when viewed in the vertical, horizontal, oblique and peripheral.
In fact, Pappy and the guys use all the straight wood for the cooking fire.
Your bow is just fine.
Lane
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Goodness gracious...how wide is that stave? That's pretty wide to be chasing a ring for one bow. I like to get my bow laid out rough front profile shaped before I chase my final ring so its less wood to remove and chase.
Back to your question some folks call and term this "riding the rails", because all your tension is on the sides of the bow. Depending on how severe it is,I've seen guys like Gary Davis fill them in with sinew to move the tension back over center of the bows back. I wood reduce your front profile first and then see how bad it is. A lil bit wont hurt it if its osage(which looks like it is)and you might be able to let it be. Its hard to tell from the pics how deep the valley is.
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Ok I am concerned about the cross section I have made 7 or 8 bows and this is the first piece of wood to present this question. In the new photo I drew A and B. Part of the limb is like B with a concave back. I was wondering if this was going to be a problem.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03074931.jpg)
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Ok good info blackhawk. I am kinda new so I did not want to lock myself in by reducing the stave before I knew what was below but I see your point. It is a lot of work to remove so much wood.
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Once you remove the bark and the sapwood,you then can generally see the grain good enough to lay out a little fatter than needed front profile,and then reduce your width then chase the ring. That valley will get shallower when you narrow it. ;)
Oh...and im not sure what's a safe enough depth to leave alone,but if you put a straight edge across the valley(after you narrow it to bow profile) and measure down and if its deeper than an 1/8", then id fill it in with sinew until the sinew is higher than the edges.
I've left 1/16" valleys on a couple of mine and there fine. Its not too uncommon to encounter this with osage.
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I just use a french scraper to get to the ring in the valley,narrowing it is good also if you are really sure you have followed the longitudinal grain,especially is a snaky
piece like that.Also when you are tillering if you have the valley you will need to leave the belly slightly rounded to make sure the limb stays the same thickness
through out.If you keep the belly flat any where there is a concave in the back the limb will be thinner and all the work will just be on the rails. Is that stave wide enough for 2 sisters ? That is a pretty cool stave be nice to get 2 out of it. :)
Pappy
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Kind of like this. :)
Pappy
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I agree there may be two in there,hence why I asked how wide it was.....
And pappy ill send you my address to send those snakey sisters to me..lol >:D....just kidding. Sweet staves though.
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There was really 3 in that piece,that kind of Osage is hard to come by is the only reason I was asking, hate to see it wasted but on the other hand I would rather get one good solid piece that try and be greedy and get none,I have had that happen also. :) :) I will get them sent off right away blackhawk. ;) :)
Pappy
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ok i am going to post a ton of pics so standby
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Awe....how nice of ya pappy to already make them into bows for me..lol :laugh:
Awaiting some yeller pics iowa ;)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03083230.jpg)
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That would cutting it real close,I think mine was about 4 inches total and it was scary close. :)
Pappy
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IF your staves sides are perpendicular to the back and rectangular in cross section and not a pie slice shape,and IF the stave has no knots in it that wood be violated by slicing it in half lentghwise,and IF the center half of it will give you an inch and a half each way,then I wood carefully lay out a perfect center line and cut it out with a bandsaw carefully. I wood not try to split it. It must be carefully sawed out.
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When I see that cluster knot at the tip of your tape measure and think of running a bandsaw right thru or on the edge of it I just cringe! I think you should center the limb over that knot and accept the fact that you are going to get one good bow out of it. If that knot was on the edge of a bow it would not likely survive tillering.
It could be wrapped with sinew, but you'd end up doing it before getting far into your floor tillering. With that extra mass on one limb ir might unbalance the harmony of the two limbs when the string is released...one limb would kick a bit. That's just my level of experience speaking, you have to make your own judgements.
Other than that, she's a lovely looking stave with plenty of graceful character. Good luck!
\
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Ok good info blackhawk. I am kinda new so I did not want to lock myself in by reducing the stave before I knew what was below but I see your point. It is a lot of work to remove so much wood.
John, I do my bows differently from blackhawk. There are lots of ways to skin this cat. I always go to the final ring before laying out a bow on the stave. I want to know exactly what the top ring looks like before I lay out the bow in case there are flaws not visible further up. I rip the wood off down to a ring or so above the chosen one going against the grain and extra width doesn't matter in that step. Since my seasoned wood has borers, that may be over 10 heartwood rings down. I do not find extra width to add much time to sapwood removal, though I did earlier in my bow making career. Knots, dips and character are what add time. I do like to narrow staves that are triangular in shape until there's enough heartwood to make a bow on the edge and I do it before doing anything else. If I think there's enough wood to make 2 bows in a stave, I split it before I remove any wood from the back. That way if the split tears out I haven't wasted any ring chasing energy. I agree that in your case, you should use a bandsaw if you intend to go for 2 bows. However, most of the time I get greedy it doesn't work and if Murphy's with me I ruin both potential staves. >:( Looks like a nice future bow there. Good luck. :)
George
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03083220.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03083043.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03083026.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03082954.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03082854.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03082845.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03082830.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03082815.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03082747.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03082739.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03082722.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-03082714.jpg)
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the last picture shows the side is at an angle
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In my opinion after viewing the last photo's you uploaded...stick to one bow. There's not enough insurance that I see that would justify what would otherwise be a singular, great character bow...my two cents worth...
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I always leave knots in the limb and then remove them with the draw knife if I can. You may find the grain of the wood runs differently than you think and you can't put the wood back on once it's gone. I do all my limb narrowing with a draw knife so I'm sure to follow the grain as much as possible. I'd much rather have the knot in the limb with good wood around it than right on the edge. I really like that stave!
George
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iowa, that looks good; that small knot needs to be left a little wider on the limb if you can. I would also shoot it with superglue. Nice job following the long. grain. I don't lay out until the ring is chased either. I like to see what is going on first like for, example that little knot on the edge. Jawge
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Your first picture was decieving and it looked like your stave was 4"+ wide,and who wants to chase a ring on that wide of a stave. Not me. Hence my statement. And I think folks misunderstood me on when and how I do my layout. Usually(but not all) the wood I've chased rings on the first or second heartwood ring was my chosen ring,hence taking the sapwood off leaves me down to a ring above,then I do my layout. And I can see plenty fine what's underneath. So let me restate I chase down to a ring above then do my layout. And if it was what I thought your width was from your first pic,then id def narrow or a halve it first before chasing.
Thanks for posting more pictures to clear it up..def only one bow in there.
Sometimes things are not as they seem at first in a post online and it can be hard to dissect a problem off of one picture and not being able to see it firsthand. Which can lead to differing opinions from folks,cus they percieve it differently.
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All comments are GREATLY Appreciated. So thank you for taking the time to help me. I wanted to post a bunch of picture but ran out of time. I am glad you care to help people like me with less experience.
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Blackhawk, I didn't mean to say my way was better, just different. I can see if you're stopping one ring above your bow you do get a good feel for any trouble. I also agree that going for 2 on that stave is really risky. Differing opinions are great if you ask me, it's how we learn from each other. If my perceptions were off, it's probably because I'm not that observant. Sorry about that. My only caution to John is to leave a little extra width when he works the bow down to his layout lines. Then, if the grain does something weird he'll have some leeway.
George
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No problems George :)...sounds like we pretty much do the same thing,and are saying almost the same thing. I just wanted to clarify what I meant as what I said previously was a little vague,and I didn't want to confuse John. ;)
Doesn't this forum have a teleport device yet,so we can instantly see someones issue or work in person firsthand?? ::)...lol :laugh:....that wood make things soooo much easier to help folks.
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I agree it looked a lot wider,that is why I mentioned 2 stave's,With that one I wouldn't chance it plus don't think there is enough wood for 2 anyway. The knots you are showing wouldn't bother me,do be careful when you start tillering ,the deep curve[snake] will sometime be weaker right in the middle of the curve so
keep it a little thicker until you see how it is going to react,it is very easy to get a hinge at that point before you know what happened. :( :( Beautiful piece of wood, Just take your time,slow and easy on all selfbows is a good idea but mandatory on a snaky character stave. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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Regardless of the work and following the advice in here I have decided to chase another ring and leave islands around the knots then I am going to center it up and cut for one bow. Just wondering do character bows shoot well? I am going to keep those knots off the sides. Phot o to follow.
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-04074822.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-04074759.jpg)
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Yep,I would say they do, :) :)I killed deer with each of the 3 I showed you that year.They will shoot as well and any selfbow,and if built right will hold up just as good also.I still have them 3 and still shoot now and then. :) Keep us updated,can't wait to see it shooting. :)
Pappy
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Now that is looking good. :)
PAPPY
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Cool thanks for the photo. Also look at the tip of my knife, those are not rings but layers inside the ring.
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Looks like you are down about 7 growth rings. Looks clean in the first section. :) :) :)
Pappy
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I almost finished chasing the two rings and left a large island to finish after cutting the bow to size. So what do you guys think about the to mid limb layout.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-06114552.jpg)
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I almost finished chasing the two rings and left a large island to finish after cutting the bow to size. So what do you guys think about the to mid limb layout.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-06114552.jpg)
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Not sure I am good enough to build a bow this cool looking. But here is a picture before I rough out the bow. I will do it tomorrow Hunting tonight. After I saw it I will finish chasing the rings that are left. I adjusted most knots to the center line.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-06142653.jpg)
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ok should I go for it! I was going to cut it this afternoon. Any thoughts?
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I do have one thought...Thank god for hickory!!!
Lane
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John, i have had several trees with that same look. (growth rings between growth rings.) Not sure what causes it or how it effects the wood. The bows i made from it worked out fine, and i really like the look it adds to the bow. Gotta say, that piece of wood is really top shelf! Looking forward to watchin it develop. Im glad you decided on one bow outta that stave. Luck to ya!
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I am locked in now wow. Here are pitures after sawing.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-07143706.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-07143717.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-07143734.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-07145204.jpg)
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NO!!!! Don't do it, go back, put the wood back on!!!
Aw crap, too late. Better finish 'er now. >:D
Funny how the worst piece of wood brings out the best in us as bowyers.
Better wood makes a better bow, bad wood makes a better bowyer!
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Wow I got a double slam in the span of five minutes. First JW calls my bow wood the worst wood and I ask my wife what she thought of my new bow and she said it was the ugliest bow she had ever seen Lol. Just kidding JW thanks for the complement.
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I got a soft spot for ugly dogs, ugly trucks, and ugly bows.
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I could not sleep thinking about this bow so I got up at 3:30 and worked on it till 7:00am. This hobby is crazy. So here is where I am at on half of the bow. I finshed chasing the remaining islands from the knots and cleaned up the saw makes on the sides. I left the bow a little wide about an 1/8 on each side. Should I bring the sides in now or wait till I have more of the belly removed? I have not worked a bow like this before so I don't know.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-09071603.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-09071530.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-09071435.jpg)
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What a piece of wood! John you sure do a great job of takin pictures all along the way to keep us posted on your progress. Wish I was better at that.
Now about the bow (got ur pm BTW,) you got a ton of wood to remove. belly handle and sides, if you want. I would start with the belly and get it to floor tiller. Be extra vigilant around that big bend as a spoke shave tends to want to peel more wood off there than you want. Probably a rasp is best around that curve, both on sides and the belly. Once you get it bending evenly aroung that big bend teh bow will start coming together fast. Leave the limbs and the tips wide up to the end and then you can play with width or string alignment a little.
I'm curious, what weight are you shootin for and how is the concavity of the back looking now that you have the bow laid out.
Keep taking pictures and... try to get some sleep!! ??? :o ;)
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I was hoping to be at 55lbs before it is shot in. I will photo the concavity so you can see. I am 2 or more inches wide. I have worked real hard to get to this point I just don't want to make a big mistake. If anyone has suggestion please jump in. Now that you brought up the concavity I was think of thinning the side the way I have the line drawn in the photo. This would center the knots and reduce the concavity.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-09154157.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-09154215.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-09155144.jpg)
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I don't see a problem with that concave area its kinda normal !!
Have fun !!
Guy
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Whatever you chose, make sure you are following the grain of the wood. I find I have the best luck following those lines in early morning light when the sun is low on the horizon and my eyes are well rested after a good night's sleep.
It's fun to watch this bow shedding extra wood and coming into her own.
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Great progress!! My dog and I are loving this thread and your stave but then we're a bit twisted ;D
I can't wait to see you make a bow out this :)
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I have had an osage bow blow because I left the back concave....it had been to 28 inch 50+ times on the tiller and shot about the same then booooommmmm ::) It definately failed on the raised edges.
Personally I would remove the edges but not touch the middle sort of like reverse de-crowning. As long as the grain lines you expose run parallel all the way the back will be much much stronger than it is now. Others may think differently but I wouldn't even think about leaving it like that. Another option would be to only sinew the edges say 1/4 to 5/16th wide strips....but I don't like that option!
You are so lucky to have found a piece of wood like that! Go careful ;)
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first osage bow i made had a concave back like that.
tricky to get the ring chased-being brand new at it and having a time figuring things out.
finally found an old native made crook knife in a pawn shop in alaska-perfect tool for that piece of wood.
its 48# @ 28" and still shoots right well for a first attempt.
it's had hundreds and hundreds of arrows thru it
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As a new bowyer it is really good to hear all of this opinions.
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After thinning limb
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-12195521.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-12195512.jpg)
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I worked on the bow for 3 hours today. It is bending ok and the handle is taking form. The curve is really cool so I have been thinking about calling this bow river or flint creek for the name of our creek and because it looks like a creek. I think I will put some heat to it in the caul and shaping up a little before I floor tiller anymore. But hunting this afternoon so I will wait till tonight.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-13125409.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-13125314.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-13125241.jpg)
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Its getting there ;) really cool projekt,and thanks for letting us follow it step by step!
/Mikael
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Heating the bow and forming the center line. This was nerve racking. I was afraid that any moment the bow was going to pop. I over bent the limb in hope that they will line up. I am sure I will have to do this a number of times till I get things right. This new ground for me. I have not bent wood to such a large degree with heat before. If this makes a bow I will be surprsed.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-14062012.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-14061955.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-14061946.jpg)
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Man that stave is a roller coaster ride. I'm watching and hoping for you.
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I screwed up. I have cracks on the back. The tension was too much. The first picture is the belly maybe I did not get the wood hot enought but I went real slow and only turned 1/8 at a time then heated again. I thought I was bending the whole limb but it was to much for the curve. Helppppp what do I do now? Is all lost? It is still stiff maybe I can chase another ring down. Or do you think I should fill with thin CA glue. Anyway here are the pictures.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-14073012.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-14072917.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-14072909.jpg)
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Man, I didn't realize you planned to try and bend it at those curves or I would have warned you. Wood in the bends/around knots is brittle and very hard. I've had poor success bending that hard wood. If it were my bow I'd back it now, probably with rawhide or sinew.
George
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how deep did they go? anyone ever done this? I measured and pretty sure one ring could be removed.
Option 1. remove one ring on the top limb if it is ok then move to the bottom. If it is still bad then cut off top limb and save for future splice bow.
Option 2. Back the bow with sinew and leather
Option3. Fill with super glue and continue.
Option4. Just start on another bow don't waste time fixing bad work.
Option5. Just cut it now and save for splice later.
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John,
I've had cracks that went clear through the limb, but it doesn't look like yours do to me. You can try to take a ring off and see if they disappear. The only dangers are that you run of depth to make weight, or there are flaws in the belly that would be taken off if the limbs were left full thickness, but not if a ring was removed. I personally would not cut the bow in half unless the tips cannot be made to line up.
I know others have had luck with super glue, but I have not. Once a crack has opened like that for me, super glue would not hold it. I use thread wraps if I think they'll look good, but in your case with that character I'd back the bow with rawhide.
This is not bad work, it's learning curve. Any time wood bends around a knot, the closer the wood is to the knot itself, the harder it is. Cracks that run down the limb and don't run out to the edge are not usually fatal. My only exception was a bow with a much wilder bend than yours. It got a crack in the center of the bend and it went clear through, top to bottom. This caused the bow to lose significant draw weight. I cut that one in half and made a takedown.
One other choice you have is to set it aside for now. In time you'll develop the skill to go on with confidence.
Whatever you do, good luck.
George
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G Thanks for the reply and helping work toward a solution. The ring just below the top ring is almost a 1/4 inch thick so I dont know if that is good or bad in this case because I have not built enough bows to know. I think it would be hard for the crack to run through a ring like that but I just have not done this enough to really know. Part of me just really wants to know even if it ruins the bow so that I can learn and the other part wants to stop and back it. I posted this picture earlier but you can see the thickness of rings in the handle. the outer ring is less than 1/8.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-14061946.jpg)
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I've never tried to take a crack like that out by removing a back ring so I just don't know. You'll find out if you do it. Just remember that weight comes off MUCH faster removing thickness as opposed to removing width. You may come out under your target weight. The safest fix is gonna be a backing. Either way, good luck.
George
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Yeah, I agree with Georgie, though it hurts badly. >:D
Since the cracks are running WITH the grain it's not as bad as all that. I'd recommend rawhide. Get'er reduced to the exact side to side profile you want and lay on some backing.
Good luck
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I would fill it with super glue and back with thin rawhide,it should be fine,if you don't catch it on fire and burn it up first. ;) ;D ;D As far as the concaved back,I have made several that way,I just always round the belly at the concaved spots to match the thickness of the rest of the limb. :)
Pappy
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I have decided to go with the above advice. Three great bow makers cant be wrong. I have to dehair the hide from the deer I shot this fall and prepare it for backing the bow. I am going to work a few other hides so I am waiting till the end of hunting season to take up the snake bow project again. So I have started draw knifing the staves that were cut last year so that I can make bows out of them next year. I have one that it is a couple years old that is really low in moisture so I chasing rings again in hopes that I can make another 55 # bow. Below are photos of the 2 staves and the growth ring that I am going for. The ring can be seen at the 1/2inch mark. I have a question about the stave on the left. It is a year old and has a moisture content of around 14 (thats what it read when I cut the bark off). How long should I wait till I can safely start working this stave.
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-17080955.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-17080644.jpg)
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You could start working it now,it will dry much faster with the bark off,be careful with heat on it,it will check on the back and I would also be sure and seal the back for now once you get the bark and sap wood off,be sure to get it to yellow wood once you start even if you don't get the ring chased,if you leave the sap it will sometimes check and go right into the heart wood,it holds a lot of moisture. :) :)
Pappy
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Believe it or not it would be fine without a backing. To be totally sure rawhide is the way to go. The fact that you got a few cracks shows you that the wood wasn't dry enough. The checks are caused by excess moisture having to leave the stave too quickly - all part of the learning curve!
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Hehe, learning curve....Perfect name for that bow when it's finished!!!
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Today was great! I finally figured out how to use the draw knife effectively. It took me about a month to chase rings with a regular knife but today I did the same amount of work in about 2 1/2 hours. And maybe could have done it faster if I wasn't being so careful. I came in from hunting this morning and by 12 noon I had the rings chased and the bow laid out then I cut down the side you see marked out. The log looks wider than it really is because of two knots at mid limb.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-19120513.jpg)
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Well when I cut the stave the knots went at a 45. Not what I expected but I think I might be ok but you tell me. Below are photos of the top and photos of the bottom and side. I might slip by with this.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-19150133.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-19150149.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-19150202.jpg)
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You might just get lucky on that one and skin by. Looks like by the time you get it to a bendable thickness, that'll be gone.
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Two hours to chase 2 rings on the straight end and run it through the saw. I also started reducing the belly. Here are a few photos of the progress.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-20105506.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-20105638.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-20105631.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-20105609.jpg)
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Looks good John. Is it bending at all yet? Keep the pictures coming.
Not everybody does this, but I always leave my handles full width until I've got the long string on. Then, if the string doesn't lay right where I thought it would I can adjust the handle layout a bit. (It also lets me crush the tar out of it in the vise without marring the finished handle.)
Good luck,
George
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I have taken many pictures for you guys to see the double knot situation I am working through. I am not going to work on this till morning so any comments will be welcome.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-21075603.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-21075831.jpg)
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The sides are 1/2 thick and I left the tips extra long so that I did not over do it during floor tillering. You can see this in the picture below.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-21075927.jpg)
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I see in one of the pictures that you have sorted your wood scraps into chips in one plastic tote and shavings in another. It's official. You are beyond O.C.D. You need therapy, I prescribe two hours a day, five days a week cleaning my bowshop. You can start immediately!
If the mess in my shop doesn't qualify as shock therapy at least it will get cleaned up.
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Caught in the act by you. I do clean up after every hour of work. But I am saving the shavings and chips to make a liquor for tanning a deer skin at the end of the season. I have them divided so that I can see if there is a Ph difference. The chips contain the outer most part of the tree. I read somewhere that osage bark can tan. I did a small experiment last year and it worked well so I thought I would try it on a larger scale.
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I've used oak bark to make dye. It was so tannic I prolly coulda tanned hides with it.
I've broke two Stanley spokeshaves knocking them off the bench and hitting the concrete floor. Nowadays I like the cushion of 3-4 inches of shavings! Also cheaper then those ergonomic rubber floor mats!
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I wish I did not have to clean all the time but I have an allergy to the dust. I have to wear a good dust mask and take claritin every 12 hours while making bows and for three days after. I would not use this wood except that the osage look so cool when finish it is worth it. Anyway I heated the back into the caul but was careful this time not to over over strain the limb. On the snakey part I only heated for reflex and used my hand to bend till I felt the wood give from the heat then I started using the clamp. My question is does this look OK. I was afraid that if I tried to flatten the wood to the caul it would crack. What do you all think?
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-22074957.jpg)
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Good job on the caul. You listened to your gut feeling and it served you well. I wouldn't want to try and flatten it at that knotted kink either. But that's just me and how I would've done it too ;)
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Good job
this is going to be good !If not it wont be for the lack of your effort or ability
Guy
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Ok I am happy so far with the way thing are turning out. I am going cut the tips to lenght and finish floor tillering then I will need a lot of help as I move to the tree. I hope no one reads this as a how to thread because I am so new to the bow thing. Many times along the way I feel like I am walking in the dark.
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Walking in the dark isn't that bad, with care and caution you will arrive in one piece. Now running in the dark....that's another story.
Don't ask me how I know that.
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Don't tell me you were running in the dark with scissors. When tillering this non-straight piece do I make the curve an average of the rollercoaster or should the rolls flatten and be a smooth curve. I don't know if I am saying it correctly.
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My opinion an average and maybe the knotty area not at all!
If they flatten they are stressing more than the rest!
Guy
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OK good info to know. This morning I am going to cut the tips to Length and file notches. I am also working on string alignment a little. Tonight I hope to be finishing floor tillering. I think this one is more in my skill level. I counted last night and I have only completed 5 bows and one broke. One has bad set from to much MC in the wood during building one is 40 lbs the other is 53 and I built a short bow from a failed long bow. That only leave one other that I messed up on the handle so I have high hopes for this one. Keep the comments coming I can use all the help I can get.
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Your doing fine.It's gonna be good one.For being such stubborn wood it sure does take heat bending nice don't it?Like the groping in the dark commetary.I know that feeling.Cool your gonna try tanning with the tannin from hedge.I've done that with oak bark on elk.It's a long soaking process,but it does make some very very durable leather.After the finished leather gets wet during use it comes out nice and soft with a little scuffing.The leather should take on a unique shade of color for ya.
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Thanks Ed, I. Just finished the handle and filed the notchs so tonight after hunting I will check the floor tillering and double check the side thickness. Is there anything else I should work on before going to the tillering tree.
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-23102901.jpg)
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After 4 hours of very caerful thinning and double checking tapers and all I think I am ready to tiller. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-26101744.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-26102027.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-26102313.jpg)
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I don't see anything to worry about John. That left limb in the pictures is gonna be harder to see the tiller on, but it looks like your in good shape so far. Giver her heck.
George
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I will be tillering all day so check back if you can I will post more pictures as I go. I will only do half of the tillering today then the other half next week to give the bow a chance to rest and equal mc if there are any differences in the stave still. It is raining today the humidity is high is that a bad thing?
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You bet John thinks look good.Old hedge will come through for ya.Won't be long and you'll be hunting with that one and give your other bow a break....LOL.Do you burnish yours?Really brings out the fire in that stuff.Seems to become more evident as it gets older.Remember even bending throughout both limbs and even slow taper.Only when you have even bending of limbs do you check your distance of draw to your target weight.
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A little reflection on the builds' past.That old knot did'nt bother did it.LOL.I've got a hedge bow here that's had at least a thousand shots through it with a knot fallen out on the belly by the edge of the limb.I just filled it with sawdust and superglue and it worked.It has a ring over it too.Shot a buck with it this fall too.I did'nt want to tell you that and then you have your bow break...LOL.Old hedge is some very very forgiving stuff compared to other woods as far as I'm concerened.
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Thanks for the post Ed and for the phone call it helps to hear and read comments and things to keep in mind as it goes. I am going to start working on it in a couple of hours will post more pictures around 3 my time. Sure is nice to have a project to work on when you get rained out of hunting. I have not figured out how to hunt in the rain with primitive gear. Maybe I need one bow for rain hunting and a couple arrows made for rain. Not sure how to do that.
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Ok here are a couple more pictures and I am 1 more inch down.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-26143058.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-26143117.jpg)
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As the guy said on his hunting trip to Africa, "Safari so good".
Not showing anything scarey yet, no obvious hinges.
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Looks good,. I'd concentrate on the outer 2/3rds of both limbs and avoid getting it to bend too close to the grip at this early stage.
George
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Everything looked good till I looked at this picture. The right limb look like it need something. I am done for the night so what would you guys do next.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-26182207.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-26182234.jpg)
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Looks to me that the right limb is too stiff/bending too much inboard. The left limb looks good to me. Work on the outer half of the right limb, then even them up before pulling much further.
George
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Thanks g. I will give it a try in the moring.
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Here is where I am at now. I am going to give the limbs a rest till tomorrow so that they can recover. Measuring from the back of the handle not the bell the bow is at 42 lbs at 18 inches my draw is 24.5. How am doing guys?
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-27122605.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-27122613.jpg)
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You got the tips moving a bit more like you wanted. Looks pretty good to me, maybe a bit more off on outside end of the left limb. I think you gonna have a good lookin's bow here soon!
Thanks for sharing!
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John, didn't you say you were shooting for 55lbs? Just curious why you've listed the weight and draw length so much lower. You should be pulling it to 55lbs a while before now if you want a 55lb bow. Maybe I read it wrong?
George
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G my 53 lbs bow hits 35lbs at 18inches and is at 53lbs at 24.5inches. This bow is at 42 lbs at 18inches. I have not pulled it past 18inch or 42 lbs to prevent undue stress.
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I understand that you can extrapolate to the bow's final weight at partial draw. i believe it's risky to wait to pull it to your draw weight until you are way into the tillering process. You're gambling you have your tiller perfect enough so the last few inches of draw length can be pulled without any problems surfacing. I think that's a bad gamble. You can certainly build a good bow the way you're doing it. I just think there's some risk to doing it that way. I teach people to get their bow's limbs bending correctly as early as possible in the process and to pull their bow to their intended draw weight through the entire process. In fact, we go to their intended draw weight 50 times or so with each wood removal. When they get to their draw length, their bow is tillered and they have made their draw weight at their draw length.
Maybe I'm the only one who builds this way? Having a pulley based tillering system is really helpful to tiller the way I do. Looks like that's the way you do it too.
George
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Ok I see where your coming from. This is way I love this web site there are so many good ideas and ways of doing things. Does any one else do it differently than how I did it or how G does it? Thanks for the info I am going to try that on one of the bows I build next year.
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I have done it both ways, and have had good results with both. I do find that I have a tendancy to come in underweight if I do it your method, though sometimes it takes me a while to find a good initial tiller so am forced to. Also I do not yet have a pully setup, so It is difficult to do George's way.
Jon
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This is the best I can do I am afraid I am going to screw it up because I don't know if I should do more or stop. So here are the numbers 60 at 24inches this should be about 57 or so by the time it is shot in I think. I tillered then I shot a couple arrows then came in and took these photos. First shot was 2 inches above bull at 15feet I was impressed
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-28165330.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-28164711.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-28164837.jpg)
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Thought I would show a few detail shots. Of the tip and that aera that had two knots in it when I started. I also forgot to include a front view.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-28171512.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-28171409.jpg)
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John,
Looks good. This is another really tough stave. That's 2 in a row for you isn't it? After you've tackled these 2 you're gonna be able to handle about anything. ;D
George
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I think you did a good job !
Its hard for me to tell for sure from a picture when the snaky part is bending well !
I do as G said soon as it gets to bending good I pull to the intended draw weight but no more!
I draw a straight line on the side of the limb where its snaky so I can hold a strait edge by the line as its pulled to see how much bend I have in each area.
Guy
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Thank you all for your help in making this bow a sucuss. I am going to put a little walnut stain to the wood this morning. After it dries I am going to put Tru oil on for the finish. I like the look of leather handles but prefer to leave the wood. Thank again and the next time I have a normal piece of wood it should be a walk in the park.
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You bet that bow looks great!!!!I'm sorry I may have confused you by telling you not to pull your bow to your target weight while tillering to reduce stress.I did'nt exactly mean that.I meant until the limbs were bending evenly.A person has to to ensure the limbs expose your tiller from wood removal.I pull mine 25 times or so after each wood removal,but never over my intended target weight.As you go do you see too that about every 2 inches of draw produces about 5 pounds of draw weight.Might be different with different designs but on my bows it's approximately that.Good thing to know you know while tillering.You came in heavier with this one than 57 pounds at 26 inches.I do that too once in a while calling good enough good enough.Don't hurt to shoot a little overbuilt bow anyway.LOL.Again really good job John.Now I don't know about your assumtion of every next straight bow to be a walk in the park....LOL,but your sure well on your way to being an accomplished bowyer at least with hedge.If you ever try some white woods sometime be ready for some differences.Old hedge is such a forgiving wood I think but some white woods are'nt.
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Just curious,do you remember how much reflex you started with before tillering?Or how much set it took on ya?Looks like on your pictures after shooting a few arrows it still retains some reflex or at least flat.Nice efficient looking bow John.
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Yes Sir,
Looking Good.
I have a Yeller stave coming along that looks similar to your starting stave.
Just hoping to come close to what you have done with this one.
Rollercoaster in a Tornado.
Tornadic Rollercoaster?
:)
-gus
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I used the caul that Gary recommended on the cd I bought from three river archery. I think it is about 3 inches total. I ran a string on the back and I have 5/16th left in it which I am sure will be gone I am sure after it is broke in. I am really happy to be able to finally make a real bow from start to finish for the most part (aside from help in here) on my own. This by far the fastest bow I have made can't wait to see the fps reading. When it was heated into the form I don't think I got the full three I was afraid it would split so I did not force the issue.
Just curious,do you remember how much reflex you started with before tillering?Or how much set it took on ya?Looks like on your pictures after shooting a few arrows it still retains some reflex or at least flat.Nice efficient looking bow John.
Good luck Gus on yours and I would leave extra wood on the curves and knot areas. That was what I was told and what I did and it seemed to work.
In the picture below you can see the reflex that remains and the stain I applied from walnut juice.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2011-11-29155609.jpg)
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Looks very good.I bet it does spit an arrow fast!!!Them old deer won't stand much of a chance.LOL.Unless you shoot like me over them sometimes.LOL.You can always recurve the tips a bit for more reflex,but performancewise that bow of yours should hold for a long long time.The bow gods sure did us a favor creating osage orange.
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I have a stave that I am going to work on this spring and I am going to flip the tip on that one. I am hooked now can't wait to make the next bow. I even elected to work on this one a little rather than hunt so I am not going to start on till spring or I wind wind up in the shop during hunting season. . I am going to debark a couple of staves for the next few bows.
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Even the wheelie guys will think you are pretty cool when you pull that stick outa the sock! That bow done went and got itself some STYLE!
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Iowabow you say you might debark some staves.One thing I've had luck with hurrying the process of making a bow which is no secret is to rough the bow out to 3/4 inch thick limbs 2 inches wide [to avoid any lateral drying twist]with the handle cut out too [side profile].If the stave has been sitting around for a year you should'nt need to seal the back,if it's green I sure would.Either way I'd still seal it.[No sense in taking chances].I've clamped them into reflex when green and had some success.Your year old stave could go into your house to dry faster.I'd let a green stave air dry in your garage at cooler temps for at least a couple of weeks first.I don't use moisture testers.Nothing really against them in their own place.Cabinet making they fit in good but bow wood goes through a lot more stress than a cabinet door.I just have humidity guages and a weight scale and go by the TTB 4 graph Tim Baker made.Humidity guage should be by bow wood.I probably should be reprimanded for encouraging you to make more bows cutting into your hunting time...LOL.I'll just plead guilty and take my lashes....LOL.
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JW even those wheelie guys a lot of times are'nt impressed by seeing a beautiful self bow...LOL.What I like to say to them is why do you need sights to shoot a bow accurately?I know the answer they have but then I say you can't be much of a deer hunter if you can't get within 20 yards of a deer.Is'nt that what HUNTING is all about......LOL.