Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pat B on December 12, 2017, 02:26:39 pm
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I decided to start another hickory backed lemonwood ALB and figured I might as well do a build along. I got the lemonwood stave(3/4x2x72) from a member from West Jefferson, NC. but can't recall his name and he hasn't been on for a while.
Anyway, she will be 68"n/n, 1 1/2" at the widest point and out 12" before tapering to 1" at the tips for now. I also am leaving the handle area full width for now. The tips will end up at about 3/8" at the string nocks but it will be after low brace time before I reduce the tips and handle.
Like before, this bow will take me a while to complete, especially with the backing glue up. I will add a bit of reflex at glue up.
Here are a few pics of the start.
(https://i.imgur.com/jRUu7JZ.jpg)
...the stave with the outline drawn out...
(https://i.imgur.com/vrLLzxP.jpg)
...after she's been cut out...
(https://i.imgur.com/myADou2.jpg)
...handle layout after the bow was cut out(handle will be cut out later)...
(https://i.imgur.com/Tz8R8dz.jpg)
...bow outline traced on the backing strip but not cut out yet...
(https://i.imgur.com/OOWgpmx.jpg)
...handle area of the backing traced out...
(https://i.imgur.com/XI1qCQX.jpg)
The lemonwood stave and backing were taped together for shipping. It's been a few years since I got this so when I separated the two today I was surprised with this coloration and pattern on one side of the backing strip. I don't know if it happened while the two were taped together or if the sender did it as a surprise but whichever it was, I like it and will try to preserve it although I will have to sand it smooth. I guess we'll see.
Anyway, I'll keep y'all posted as I work along with pics of each process but please be patient.
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Very nice Pat I will be watching I always wondered about lemonwood ,I see them in the antique shops some times on old bows !
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Definitely add reflex Pat. Lemonwood is good but it can take a bit of set when glued up straight.
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I built one a few years ago as a donation to the raffle table at the Tenn Classic. I think Cipriano won it with 1 ticket someone picked up for him.
I liked the way lemonwood works and with 3" to 4" of reflex of added reflex added over 68" I think that one settled in straight or with a little reflex. This will be only the 2nd lemonwood bows I've built and both are hickory backed ALBs. Kind of nostalgic of the 40s.
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I'm 100% tuned in! (-P
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I'm 100% tuned in! (-P
:OK
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awesome!!!!!
i just returned from visiting family in cuba... spent 5 days there... talked to my father in law who is a carpenter and we discussed lemonwood... *(as it's supposedly only grown in cuba and a couple places in south america)... the problem??? i don't know the spanish name for lemonwood *(no it's not madera de limon.. limon is a lime).... supposedly the spanish name is "degame" but he didn't know it and had never heard of it...
i will find out the local name for it and next time i'm there *(april ish) i will source me some and band saw it into 36" lengths and bring it back...
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It would be interesting to see if Cuban lemonwood is better than other varieties from South America.
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I shall be following this thread with great interest Pat as I've got a nice Lemonwood stave I've been meaning to make a classic backed ALB from. It'll be a while until I get down to it too so I'll be able to sit back and enjoy watching your build progress! (-P
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Look forward to watching this one Pat. :)
Pappy
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Yes! I love buildalongs! Reading one made me start building my own bows three years ago!
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Good on you Pat. We need some new build along's with all the photos gone from or old ones. I'll be watching and don't forget to take lots of pictures. (-P
Bjrogg
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Nice timely option to show for some on here.I'll be watching.... (-P.Good time to start a new catalog of pictures.
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Definitely staying tuned to this one, as I have a few lemonwood 1x2's in the shop. And hickory strips. Looking forward to the build.
Kyle
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Should be a fun build Pat.
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I'm following along too Pat. Just picked up a lemonwood 1x2 from Kyle in Michigan this year. I like the idea of a classic design for a historical wood
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I've got a few more pics and a trick I learned from Pearlie.
I got the backing cut to shape, a little wider than the belly. Kind of hard to see from this pic...
(https://i.imgur.com/MgCkpoB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FC3fDS6.jpg)
...then laid the backing on the belly and clamped it in place...
(https://i.imgur.com/zbaqBc7.jpg)
...and this is the trick I learned from Pearlie. After making sure everything is lined up I drilled 2, 1/8" holes through the backing and into the belly at the center of the handle area but not all the way through. These holes are about 5/8" deep(backing is 1/8" thick). I them place 2, 1/8" pieces of dowel through the backing and into the belly(temporary now but will be permanent). These dowels act like alignment pins during glue up to keep the backing strip from sliding around with the slimy glue. Once the glue cures I cut the dowels flush with the back and the handle wrap will cover them up so they are not noticable. I've done this on a couple of other glue up and they are the third hand we always need at these critical times.
I'm at a stopping point now. I have to go get glue and bicycle tubes for the glue up next time I go to town. I'm thinking about using Weldwood Plastic Resin, a urea type wood glue. I've used it before with good results so why not use it again. The bicycle tubes shouldn't be hard to find since Brevard has become a biking Mecca for mountain and road bikes with 3 or 4 bicycle shops here.
In the mean time, before glue up I will pre-tiller the belly so I can get a nice even bend when adding the reflex at glue up. I'll take pics of all of this and post them when I do. So, til then, keep on making wood curls.
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That is one slick alignment trick. The wealth of knowledge shared here is amazing. Looking forward to the final result. Thanks for the backing tip!
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Pat, with the backing a little wider than the belly, the bike tube clamps wont work as well as they would if the back and belly were the same width, as they will catch the edge and not supply the pressure on the edges, where, IMO, it is needed most, wont it? I use el cheapo spring clamps, on the edges, and one on each side of the glueup, for the full length. Maybe 30 - 40 clamps in all. As the glue dries and the wood shrinks back down to normal size, the spring clamp keeps the pressure up and constant too.
I learned back a number of years from you about the Plastic Resin Glue and have been using it ever since on all things boo. Very happy with it.
When I glue up BBI's, I make the belly Ipe wider than the back Boo. This way, when I do the glue up, which is right side up so I can add Perry reflex blocks under the limbs in the normal manner, I can see the squeeze out all along the edges. If there is good squeeze out, I know that when the belly is taken down to the backing, I should have a good glue line. If they are the same width during glue up, it is harder to see the glue line.
Why do you make the back wider than the belly?
Russ
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I haven't done backed bows in a while so I'm re-learning and appreciate your input, Russ. I will trim the backing so it the same as the belly and probably use a pressure strip. Hopefully I can pick up some plastic resin tomorrow. I still need to pre-tiller the belly some before glue up.
barebo, I'm just passing on what was passed on to me. That's why we're all here. :OK
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Definitely, add reflex, Pat. Lemonwood is good but it can take a bit of set when glued up straight.
Here's my question. Is it best to reflex a bow that will likely get set? I understand the reasoning behind it. If it's reflexed then the set it gets will only take it to parallel if that, thus preventing string follow. The question is this though if something is going to get set doesn't that mean the design is too stressful for the bow anyway, in which case reflexing it would increase the stress? So it makes you wonder which would be better for the bow? Would not reflexing it reduce the stress enough that it gets significantly less set? If so you'll also have to ask if the further back tips add more to early string tension despite more set vs limbs further forward but with less set?
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You also have to consider whether the reflex is natural/heat-induced of if it's perry reflex. Unlike natural or heat-induced reflex, perry reflex has the belly wood under tension in an unbraced profile, because it isn't settled but is still trying to return to a straight profile but the glue is preventing it. Therefore when it does bend to parallel, it merely gets rid of that tension instead of gaining compression since that's where it wants to be natural anyway. Therefore the limb may not be under more compression and therefore stress than if it was left neutral.
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I plan on making a maple backed lemonwood in the coming months. I'm going to glue it up board flat. I will report back my findings.
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I love build a longs. Thanks Pat.
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Man. That Hickory backing is wild.... Sure hope its color ends up on the final product.
I love a good build thread. Thanks Pat.
David
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I'm having a hard time finding Weldwood Plastic Resin. I check all my local options, went on line but when I check with different companies it's either not available or they want almost $30 for a 1# tub. The ones that aren't available are priced from $6.95 to $8.95 for a 1# tub. I have one more option. If that doesn't work out I guess I'll use TBIII. I do have Urac185 but the last time I used it was 4 or 5 years ago and it was a few years old then so I don't know if I can trust it. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
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Pat
I have a large tub of the plastic resin and could never hope, in my life, to use it all. Send me your address and Id be happy to send you a baggie of glue.
Russ
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Rus, that would be great. Let me send you something in return. PM sent
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Great build along so far! I'm really looking forward to seeing what that Hickory backing will look like after everything is finished.
Just out of curiosity, do you plan on putting an overlay on top of the handle section so you can cover up your alignment dowels or will you just be using some kind of wrap over the handle?
Thanks for posting this build a long!
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Ty, an overlay isn't necessary because the handle wrap will cover the alignment pins and they could be disguised with a little paint anyway. I usually use a shaped piece of thick leather on the back of the handle on my bows to round out to fill the hand when gripped. I'll post pics of that when the time comes.
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That's a brilliant idea! One more reason to keep tabs on this.
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I'm watching, Pat. I haven't understood that greenish color - where did it come from?
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Simon, I think the guy that sent it to me must have added the color.
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I did a little work this week. I first covered the hickory backing strip with masking tape to protect it during glue up...
(https://i.imgur.com/qxNg1FH.jpg)
...then yesterday I glued up the riser to the lemonwood belly. I used 3 thin pieces of unknown wood(maybe mahogany) in graduating lengths...
(https://i.imgur.com/KlIpe3l.jpg)
...and the glue up...
(https://i.imgur.com/re61Iyn.jpg)...
...and the results...
(https://i.imgur.com/Phrk2mH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JV059AK.jpg)
Next, I'll sand the edges smooth, mark out the riser and cut it to shape then I'll start pre-tillering lemonwood belly to get ready for glue-up. The handle area should be 1 1/2" thick after glue up.
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Thanks for doing this Pat
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Looking good
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Excitedly following this thread!
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Enjoying your build along Pat. Like your bay window with the stone knives on it. (-P
Bjrogg
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Thanks guys.
BJ that's a shadow bow with my stone knife collection in it. My set up in most of the pics is in our sun room so it's always bright and warm in there.
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How do you flatten your surfaces Pat? By hand, with a joiner?
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Upstate, all parts are sawn lumber so the surfaces are flat. I grind the glue surfaces flat on my belt sander, brush off the saw dust and apply the glue. Freshly sanded surfaces seem to take up the glue better.
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Cool. Thanks bud. I'm really enjoying this thread :OK
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We, like most others in the US are fixing to get hammered by extremely cold weather. I won't be doing much outside so if my basement shop isn't too cold I'll get some work done in the next few days. I'm going to try to get the belly pre-tillered so I can get a nice even bend at glue up. My next step is to grind the sides smooth and mark out the side profile. I'll wait until the temperature regulates a bit first before I glue it up. I'm afraid the hotbox wont work well in my unheated basement. I'll be sure to take pics of each step as I go.
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I'm sure enjoying your thread to Pat especially with using lemon wood !
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Here's what I did today. First, an update for BJ...
(https://i.imgur.com/HlYWzIe.jpg)
I sanded the sides of the handle area so I have a flat area to draw it all out on...
(https://i.imgur.com/OqAJbOQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3VQQajp.jpg)
...then I marked out the handle area and fades and the limb thickness. I made the limbs 5/8"(with the backing included)...
(https://i.imgur.com/7z15IN6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/sqC6lO3.jpg)
My next step will be to cut out the side profile of the handle and remove the excess wood from the limbs.
To be continued
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Looking good so far! Out of curiosity, what are the lengths of your fades and grip area? Also, is the center of your handle lined up with the center of the bow or is it offset? Trying to take notes. ;D
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4" handle centered length and width with 4" fades. Limbs are 1 1/2" at the fades and out 12" then tapering to about 3/4" tips for now. finished tips will be 3/8". This bow will have a somewhat bulbous handle with no cut in shelf. I may add a leather shelf but I won't decide that until I'm almost done.
The tips and handle will probably remain as they are until first low brace. If I have an alignment problem I can correct that by removing from one side or the other of the handle and/or tips.
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good lookin knives there Pat.and yes this cold is brutal.
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Thanks for the picture of the knives Pat. Those are beautiful and very nicely displayed. I'm just a bit curious if I understand right. Are both of your fades 4"s or the two fades put together add up to 4"s?
Bjrogg
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Fades are 4" each.
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Looking good so far Pat, love you knife collection also. ;)
Pappy
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I did a little more today. I drew a line along the limbs on both sides at 5/8" from the back including the 1/8" backing strip. Today I cut along the line at about a 45deg angle on both sides of both limbs to remove some of the excess wood...
(https://i.imgur.com/omVR68M.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Hy8gQWq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9rIXUL5.jpg)
...and cut the fades...
(https://i.imgur.com/Zl4BT8K.jpg)
With just this little bit of wood removal I can see some bending when floor tillering. It's too damned cold in my shop(34deg) to work down there so once this cold snap breaks I'll start pre-tillering the belly so it has a smooth even bend then it will be time for the glue up.
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Still lookin good Pat. This is probably a dumb question, but is lemonwood the tree that grows lemons? :-[
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No. Lemonwood is named for its color.
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Another name is degame. It's a tropical hardwood primarily from Cuba but also parts of Central America.
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I figured, but I just had to ask cause how cool would that be if the tree that gives us lemonade also gave us great bows! (-S
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hey its a fruit wood if you find a piece give it a shot (AT)
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I think Mullet and maybe some of the other Fla guys has made bows from sour orange he finds growing wild in Fla.
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I did a little more today. I started working the belly down with a rasp. After the rasp I always clean up the tool marks and slightly round the sharp edges with a scraper to prevent getting a splinter. I found out that lemonwood splinters fester pretty quickly...
(https://i.imgur.com/9X0FJ3B.jpg)
...I worked to the line I drew earlier. It was about 5/8" from the back including the backing strip(not yet attached). I marked a spot that was a little thinner after sawing off the edges, marked with the "X"s...
(https://i.imgur.com/5RUKFna.jpg)
...and after checking for a bend I found a spot that was a bit stiff, marked with an oval over the area...
(https://i.imgur.com/CMDLlcQ.jpg)
I then marked along the side another mark about 1/8" less that the previous line...
(https://i.imgur.com/m3QWMPk.jpg)
...this will be my next line to remove wood to. I'm making a crowned belly for now but will flatten it out later. Lemonwood is known for fretting so I want the belly pretty flat to even out the stresses. A crowned belly would concentrate the stresses down the crown.
When I draw these lines along the side of the limb I go from tip to tip so I'm assured the both limbs on both sides are similar in thickness.
(https://i.imgur.com/a41NZMW.jpg)
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I'm lost but having the time of my life. I love your boat trailer shaving horse.
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It's called a Stave Master, made by Keenan Howard of Bend Oregon. Pappy has one too.
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I'm new to this forum and I've never experienced a build-along before. I'm loving it. Thanx for doing this Pat B.
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Looks like it’s gonna be a classic, Pat. Very fun!
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RedHill, welcome to PA and welcome to the world of build alongs.
Thanks Steve. It sure will be a classic design.
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Pat your lemonwood is very yellow compared to mine. I think the stuff I got from Kyle (Ksnow) is very old stock, pre-embargo I'd bet. Perhaps that's why its mostly a brown color?
Good build along my friend.
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I've seen old references to " Brown" Lemonwood. Pretty sure the reference said it came from somewhere other than Cuba. It's interesting that Lemonwood bows died out with the embargo even through the species grows in multiple other locations.
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Both pieces of lemonwood I've used have been this yellow color. I think these are pre-embargo but like PatM said, it's probably the location rather than age.
I like the way this stuff works. It has a nice feel under a rasp and scraper but it seems a bit brittle.
I did a little more work today. After looking at the pics I can see I need to get the bend a little more even...
(https://i.imgur.com/vYk9A07.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nxRyGsa.jpg)
This is my glue up form set-up. The 2x4 blocks on the ends are 3 1/4" where the tips rest and the handle area drops 2" to the surface of the base. This gives only a little reflex but for this style bow it's plenty. It should come out about flat.
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Cool way to glue in the reflex. Seems like it would result in a nice natural bend.
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That's my plan, upstate. Lets see how it works out.
The bow is still pretty stiff, even without the backing so I'll do a little more wood removal and get the bend better.
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I got her glued up today and she's resting comfortably is a 100+ deg hot box for the next few house.
Here are a few pics of the process. The first thing to do is be sure you have everything close at hand and ready when needed...
(https://i.imgur.com/yCWvLyy.jpg)
Just before glue up I sanded smooth both gluing surfaces. then brushed both areas well with a clean, stiff brush to remove the saw dust...
(https://i.imgur.com/hn7nj6M.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iS8Zn9T.jpg)
this is something I've always done. I think I got the idea from Bingham's when I attempted a glass bow(I don't want to talk about it). This gives a fresh, clean glue surface...
Then comes the glue up. I didn't get pics of this because I was wearing rubber gloves and didn't want to get glue on the camera. I buttered both glue surfaces, put in the alignment pins(2 at the handle and one at each tip). I then put both parts together with the pins in their holes in the backing strip.
You can see the pins at the handle with glue on them...
(https://i.imgur.com/S1b7wPa.jpg)
I then wrapped each limb with the split inner tube...
(https://i.imgur.com/K30eiQo.jpg)
then laid the glue up on the form...
(https://i.imgur.com/CpxtskE.jpg)
.
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Then I clamped the handle area down to the form drawing it into reflex...
(https://i.imgur.com/K30eiQo.jpg)
and added small clamps at each tip. I looked over the glue up to be sure I had a good glue ooze around the whole bow. There was one spot that looked a bit ooseless so I added a clamp and it oozed.
Now it's time to go in the hot box. I had preheated the box for about an hour. The box was between 100deg and 120deg(funky thermometers), made sure I had blocks to set it on...
(https://i.imgur.com/5Xyr5IZ.jpg)
...and set her in. I'm using 2, 100w bulbs for my heat source...
(https://i.imgur.com/8lzwJVT.jpg)
...I like to place pieces of aluminum foil over the bow where the light bulbs are to help prevent hot spots....
(https://i.imgur.com/8ngcTWi.jpg)
...and closed the box. I'll give her a few hours to cook turn off the lights and let her cool slowly. When I open her back up I'll be there with the camera and will continue on with the clean up. Back later.
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Pearly, and others,
The pieces from me are pre-embargo. A few of the other pieces had "Product of Cuba" and $1.49" stamped on them. I'm following also for a future build.
Kyle
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I got her out of the hot box. She is holding about 1 1/4" of reflex just off the form...
(https://i.imgur.com/SP5vkF3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jPJzgV4.jpg)
Then it was time to clean her up. I sanded the sides flat removing the excess glue....
After getting the sides cleaned up I used my scraper to remove the sharp corners from the back...
(https://i.imgur.com/xoKNLFt.jpg?1)
...then used some 150 sand paper to smooth out the corners...
(https://i.imgur.com/VZPMA0w.jpg?1)
...after doing all of this here she is showing the reflex...
(https://i.imgur.com/a1McZF9.jpg?1)
I think these are the best glue lines I've ever gotten on a backed bow...
(https://i.imgur.com/Z6m84oV.jpg)
More to come soon...
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I have a bad gut feeling about that back. Hope I'm wrong and that it is deliberate staining.
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Pat, I'm sure it is deliberate staining. It looks man made close up.
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That's more encouraging. I've seen mildew create some pretty interesting color and pattern.
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I'm worried more about dryness. It's been real cold and dry here and we heat our house with a wood stove so the R/H is low. I still have lots of wood to remove before even a long string so I can get some work done without stressing it.
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Leave pots of water on the wood stove Pat, might help the humidity. I have three humidifiers going and it's 38% this morning still.
Bow is looking good. Good glue lines make a fella feel alright!
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Pat B, I've been thinking on the pegs you used to secure the position of the lams. What a great idea!
For my upcoming first glue up, I'm considering using screws for the same purpose, but only on the parts of the handle that will be cut away later.
I'm really enjoying this build-along!
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Pearlie, we go through a gallon of water from a pot on the stove each day. We probably need a humidifier too.
txdm, Pearl Drums gave me the idea of using the dowels as alignment pins. I like using dowels or bamboo skewers because they stay in the bow after glue up. I just cut them flush and sand smooth. A screw you would have to remove and that would leave a hole, not that it would matter much in the non working areas.
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I did a little wood removal this morning but didn't take any pics. I started off by drawing a line down both sides of both limbs at 5/8" from the back and removed wood to that line. I then checked the bend floor tillering. It hardly bent so I scribed another line 1/2" down from the back, removed the wood and checked. Voila! it bends...but still way too stiff. I may end up having to thin the backing and/or narrowing the bow but that's a decision for later.
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I like using dowels or bamboo skewers because they stay in the bow after glue up.
Just checked and I have an abundance of bamboo skewers that are 1/8"... I'll use those.
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That's what I use or hardwood dowels. The skewers work just fine.
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I did a little more today. First, after removing wood from the belly the backing was gonna be too thick so I sanded it down a little. I just got a new 40 grit belt for my sander and was worried it might take too much off but gingerly I ran the back over the sander with 6 or 8 light pulls on each limb and got it down some. Unfortunately the dyed design on the back was removed. I can easily replace that or come up with some other decoration but I'll worry about that later.
Here is the backing thickness before the sanding...
(https://i.imgur.com/4dCIWmR.jpg)
...and after sanding and rounding off the edges. Not much difference but if necessary I'll do it again.
(https://i.imgur.com/U9b0t5l.jpg)
After that I sanded the backing and corners smooth I cut in the string nocks. Usually I'll come down 3/4" on the back and 1" on the belly side. This gives me about a 45deg angle. This time I went 1" on the back and 1 1/4" on the belly because the ends were uneven.
(https://i.imgur.com/qvfTHch.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HvTpaID.jpg)
These are temporary nocks anyway just for tillering and will be removed when I narrow the tips. I like the tips to be wider to start with. Once I go to low brace and see how the string tracks I'll shape the tips close to finish size and add overlays.
Then it her first trip to the tiller tree. I exercised the limbs then took a look just to see if things are relatively even. they seemed to be OK...
(https://i.imgur.com/uAgfRGA.jpg)
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Alright! You've got 'er on the tiller! Gotta be a good feeling. :)
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Today I did about 80 scrapes on the belly and 5 passes on the backing of each limb with the new 40 grit belt sander to thin the backing a bit more. Not enough difference except she's bending better. No new pics.
I decided to reduce the length from the 71" where she is now to 68" which will be better for my 26" draw. I made a string for her and am pre-stretching the string on the bow now. Shouldn't be long before she's ready for first low brace.
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Got a little more done today. I cut 1 1/2" off each limb tip so instead of 71"t/t she is now 68"t/t, more appropriate for my 26" draw. Here is a pic of her on on the tiller tree showing the reflex...
(https://i.imgur.com/q4zBHqS.jpg)
...and with a little tension...
(https://i.imgur.com/uAgfRGA.jpg)
here she is clamped in the vise with one limb bending...
(https://i.imgur.com/JN3ypZx.jpg)
..and just when everything is going well and you feel you're getting ahead, the fraging gremlins come out...
(https://i.imgur.com/4avOWIA.jpg)
...gotta love the life of a wood bow builder. I haven't examined it closely but it looks like the hickory broke over a small portion of the back or corner. As I was exercising her and getting ready to check the bend I heard that dreaded "tick" and before I could let off the tension to inspect I heard the crack.
After I get over the shock I'll see if there is a remedy. Til then......... >:( ...I guess I'll stew a little.
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That appears to be goo grain to. That just sucks, but it wont be the last time. Maybe boo back it and call it a tri lam.
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All the setup steps you did for the backing/lam are still priceless knowledge that I'm grateful to have access to.
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Sucks, don't it Pearlie. I'll let her rest a few days and try to figure out my options.
Had I used TBIII I could just heat and remove the backing but with this Weldwood Plastic Resin I think I'll have to grind the backing off...and that will really suck. Oh well, life goes on!
Thanks txdm. This will continue one way or another and will be more knowledge to pass on.
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Dang. I have quickly removed backing and bellies with a coarse half round rasp until I hit the glueline and then just cleaned it up and re-prepped it. The texture of the glue kind of stops the rasp in a way you can tell indicates you're thorough the backing. A bit like just working to a growth ring but glue is a bit more of a buffer than the next ring.
Reduce it by facets and you'll have it cleaned up in no time.
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It looks like it broke right through the backing and then split along the glue line. Is that what I'm seeing?
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Man that is such a shame that would be bow was looking like a real classic! I'm hope the Lemonwoods all intact and you're able to continue with it in a different format. :(
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Sieddy, the lemonwood belly seems to be OK. I'll give it a good once over once I get the backing off.
DC, that's exactly what you are seeing.
Pat, with this breaking across the grain your first observation about the backing being bad might be true. Hickory usually doesn't break like that.
I have a Nicholson #49 and a farriers rasp. Thanks for the suggestion. Rasping sounds like a lot more fun than grinding.
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Buuh, that sucks!
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The only time I’ve had hickory break like that in tension was when a sliver of heartwood separated from sapwood and it was dramatic; pieces flew everywhere. What a bummer.
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That sucks Pat.Do you think the glue line gave way in that certain area to get it to crack in that area?In that order I mean.
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Ed, I'll do a post mourtum in a day or so and see if I can figure it out. Being that the hickory broke across grain makes me think hidden rot. The lemonwood and hickory came from the same guy at the same time and who knows how the hickory was handled off the stump. They were taped together and stored in our utility room for the last 3 years and that room has the most stable temp and humidity in our house.
hoosierf, the only other hickory backing I had break had rot in it and I didn't know til too late. It is almost impossible to break sound, healthy hickory.
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Take your time figuring out what to do, and know that we're with you in spirit. Sometimes these things end up being a blessing in disguise.
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This will also be a good to see how you go about trying to salvage the bow from here on out. I'm cheering for you, Pat!
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I will start the autopsy today. Yesterday was my wife's birthday. We and another couple celebrated at out local sushi restaurant. After a few pork dumplings, a few sushi rolls, some beautiful sashimi tuna and a few Sapporo beers(my first beer since October but ya gotta have cold beer with sushi) I woke up this morning with a clear head. ???
After an initial inspection of the splinter it looks like a possible dry glue line there but I won't know for sure until the autopsy is complete. I'll gingerly pry the splinter up as not to damage the belly then rasp and grind the rest of the backing off to see what I can find. Of course, I'll take pics as I go along.
More later...
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I do believe it was a dry glue line where the splinter lifted as you can see in these pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/DsQVTzM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/D4sN9R2.jpg)
...I used a Sharpie to mark the glue line so I didn't rasp into the belly...
(https://i.imgur.com/CffyqwD.jpg)
...then rasped a facet along the side of the backing making sure I didn't go into the belly using a Nicholson #41 that Matt gave me after my #49 walked off(thanks Matt)...
(https://i.imgur.com/sJOR3Ai.jpg)
...I marked the facets so you can see where I rasped...
(https://i.imgur.com/0lyfldD.jpg)
...then I use the course side of a farriers rasp to take down the crown...
(https://i.imgur.com/9SmXhD0.jpg)
So far this hasn't been as bad as I expected. More to come...
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Auch that sucks! But I am glad you are on your way to save it! And get a good workout too :BB
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That was hardly the workout, leonwood but the rest was.
I removed the Sharpie lines from down the side of the limbs so I could see the glue line better. After rasping the facets and bringing down the crown with a farriers rasp as close as I felt safe...
(https://i.imgur.com/bM8pQt6.jpg)
...then is was over to the Stave Master and a scraper to remove the remaining hickory backing...
(https://i.imgur.com/0S326I0.jpg)
I scraped down the crown to get as much as I could for now. As I got to the edges I could hear the sound change when I got to the Glue line. It was just like PatM said, like the different sounds when chasing an osage ring when you got to the early wood. Thanks for the tips Pat, the rasping and the sound.
(https://i.imgur.com/tdjIiUw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YUPIyY2.jpg)
I've come to another stopping point. I'll start again tomorrow whit a fresh head. To be continued...
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By Dry Glue Line, do you mean that's a spot that didn't get enough glue?
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I made sure I had good glue coverage on both the belly and backing strip before I wrapped it and clamped it to the form. For some reason the glue didn't stick on the belly side as it set along this one area. I haven't found it anywhere else yet. This is why I'm taking the backing down to the glue line so I can see if it happened any where else.
I did find another oddity in the backing after I took it down some. This wasn't obvious on the surface but once I got the backing down just a little I noticed this discoloration and not just in this area but along the whole backing strip. I can't tell if it is fungal or possibly mineral but I've never seen it before in hickory...
(https://i.imgur.com/CIlTjXO.jpg)
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Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth.
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So, do you think the backing was the problem? Like maybe that wasn't something glued to it but a fungus of some sort? I hope it wasn't the glue since I just bought a big tub... :)
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Bob, so far I've only found a starved glue joint where the splinter lifted. A 1/4" strip of hickory about 6" long along that one edge. This glue up had the best glue lime I've ever done. I don't do many glue ups. I did also find the discoloration in the hickory backing but while removing it I would say it was sound so I think it was a starved glue joint in that one area...but, not the glue.
I've used Weldwood Plastic Resin for many years on and off and never had a failure. Why this starved glue joint happened I don't know.
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You just wrapped it in rubber didn't you? No extra clamps that might have squeezed that area?
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DC, I did have 2 "C" at the handle and one at each tip but otherwise only bound with inner tubes. I've done better with previous glue ups with inner tube wraps than I ever did with spring clamps or "C" clamps. It is really puzzling to me why it happened where it did.
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I just went back to page 5 where I have pics of the glue up wrapped with inner tube and the clamps installed. There is an extra "c" clamp about 6" above the handle on the right hand side. That is on the opposite side of the where the joint delaminated.
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It's good to know it's not the glue. I have used c-clamps for BBOs for many years with Urac... I may need to rethink that and go back to tubes/spring clams...
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I just went back to page 5 where I have pics of the glue up wrapped with inner tube and the clamps installed. There is an extra "c" clamp about 6" above the handle on the right hand side. That is on the opposite side of the where the joint delaminated.
Maybe that off center clamp opened the other side a fraction and let the glue run out a bit? Do you remember why you put just one clamp there?
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Pat B....Good plan to remove that backing.A lot of work I realize too as I've removed bamboo before like that.Next glue up will work good I bet.
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I have a question for you boo backing guys. I have this boo backing strip someone gave me a few years ago but I'm not sure it's up to the task. It seems to have come from an immature culm. The walls are relatively thin, only 1/4" thick on this 1 7/8" wide strip and the power fibers seem to be less dense than other boo I've seen and used...
(https://i.imgur.com/hdVNbut.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/k9JViuS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Y6hfK8I.jpg)
Also, there is a bud at one of the nodes and it has the sulcus (indentation) ...
(https://i.imgur.com/4m98Fq7.jpg)
...the discoloration along the sulcus seems to be only that, discoloration. I can't feel any irregularity.
So, I guess my question is...is this boo backing strip worth the effort of the job for my backed lemonwood bow. I don't want to loose the lemonwood if possible and I'm doubting if this boo backing strip will give me the weight I'm shooting for(45# to 55#) with the lemonwood belly. It seems to be from an immature boo culm although it is not wrinkled like immature boo does as it dries.
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It’s hard to see the fibers in the picture. If have doubts about it, bent it about and listen to it if every thing looks ok and it feels good then is it. If you just don’t feel comfortable at all using it, I have a large supply of mature moso bamboo strips. Send me your address and I’ll ship it off next time I run into town.
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I'd hate to misdirect you, but bamboo is very strong, and it doesn't take much to hold a back.
As to the draw weight, maybe it would make weight, but otherwise you probably already know you can......... A. shorten the bow. B. re-glue with more reflex. C. add a very thin lamination between back and belly lams (maybe even just a power-lam and tip wedges, depending....) or D. wait until you get the backing you want. Up to you since you are there doing all the work.
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Bryce, I appreciate the offer but I think I'll get this ready and shaped and see how I feel then about it.
Springbuck, this set up might surprise me. Even if it comes out a light it should still be a nice bow.
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Bryce, I appreciate the offer but I think I'll get this ready and shaped and see how I feel then about it.
Springbuck, this set up might surprise me. Even if it comes out a light it should still be a nice bow.
Okay, just know it’s always on the table:)
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Thanks :OK
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That boo will be fine and will probably surprise you about the draw weight. It has quite a crown on it and my experience is that that always adds way more draw weight.
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Pat, i have no idea if this will help, but it's information nonetheless. About three years ago i wanted to make a lemonwood bow but had no luck sourcing it. So, i bought a York lemonwood bow off craigslist and backed it with boo. The York stamping said FB 56 38. Which in their vernacular meant the bow is backed with fiber (which i removed) and is 5’ 6” long pulling 38#. I glued the boo with TBIII with no reflex. The boo was a tapered piece from Echo. That bow was pulling every bit of 90lbs after glue up. I scraped carefully for hours and got it down to about 60#. It had some set as all of the old York bows did and it came out kind of whip ended, but it's pretty fast. However it'll knock your fillings out with hand shock. It's the first bow on the right. My nephew shot it for two years and it held up to his 19 year old attempts to shoot it as fast as he could until he cherry picked a faster red oak backed hickory bow off my rack. I make the cherry pickers trade in so i still have it.
I doubt you'll have a problem hitting your target weight.
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Well, I finally got around to backing this lemonwood with the boo backing strip. I basically saw it and decided to glue it up. I used the same method as I did with the hickory backing and used the Weldwood Plastic Resin. After the glue cured out I sanded the sides and started tillering. You can see from the pics the glue up was sorta uneven but it is what it is.
This boo backing glue up came out surprisingly strong so I have plenty of wood to get the tiller even. Here are a few pics where I stand now...
(https://i.imgur.com/Ar2wFH1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rv4pej7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oH08qHz.jpg)
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I wish you luck on this go-round, Pat. My maple backed lemonwood popped out on me. Weirdest thing ever, the backer cracked the long way. I doubt it gets a second shot with me. I shot the bow for two weeks. Then decided it was time to seal it up. I shot it one more time and heard that crack open up. Game over.
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I had really good luck with the first lemonwood(hickory backed) I made. I donated it to the Classic and Cipriano sent $1 with someone and won it. That's the one I made the tube quiver and added the old Bear arrows you gave me. I guess it's still OK but haven't heard from Cipriano in a coons age.
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I've got her shooting and she shoots very well. She's 68"t/t and is pulling about 50#@26". You can see that one limb held the reflex while the other didn't. I made that the bottom limb. I still have to add the Tru-Oil finish, floppy rest and handle wrap but I'm happy with how she turned out. I'll add a full draw pic later when I can get Marcia to take one. Here are a few pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/mALEOjb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MDNcDfu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Qpt1ZLl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q6WPd0F.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XZZCQXI.jpg)
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Looking good Pat!
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FRETS!!! >:( :'(
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Burn it!
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So many things can go wrong when making a bow! It drives me nuts sometimes. >:( It's a miracle when one really stands the test of time. I hate frets. You've put a lot into this one. If you burn it, dance naked around the fire or something. (=)
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Dang pat. That’s a shame, that stick has given you some grief.
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I have to take the blame for this. I didn't check the tiller of the belly before glue up and came out with uneven reflex. Then overcompensated the re-tiller trying to even it up. I was almost there...and she shot so well. I put about 30 or so arrows through her in the last few days. NEXT!
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Well, I giving this bow another try. Today I ground down the lemonwood belly to about 1/8" and add osage slats. I was going to use Weldwood Plastic Resin like before but it had apparently got some moisture and was a block. I busted it up bet couldn't get all the minute lumps out so I used TBIII instead. I put her in the hotbox for about 45 minutes, cut the heat off but left the fan run for a few hours. I'll unwrap her tomorrow. Not sure what to expect because I kind of rushed this process too. Stay tuned!
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I have found lemonwood prone to fretting. I wouldn't feel too bad about it Pat.
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Oh, I don't feel bad about it, Steve. 1 out of 2 ain't bad odds for backed lemonwood bows.
I added an osage belly yesterday and took it off the form and unwrapped the tire tube wrap just a few minutes ago. I'm gonna give it a few days before stressing it. Maybe take it to the Classic to finish it up. Not real proud of the glue lines but this will be strike 3 on this one if it doesn't work out.
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Hi Pat, Was the uneven reflex from the glue up, due to incorrect placement of clamping? It can happen if you reflex a stave in the middle, then offset the length of the limbs. The reflex ends up asymmetrical. When I plan a bow with asymmetrical limbs I place the centre of the reflex at the centre of where the handle will be.
I have a batch of lemonwood, and every slat from it, one half of the length will stay more reflexed than the other, right out of glue up. Nothing seems to correct it, not weakening the limb or heat. I cut up several boards at the same session and now they are randomly mixed together so I have no way of knowing which is a problematic board and which is fine.
Although this doesn't happen often, I'm coming to the conclusion that on future boards that I will cut them to billet lengths, mark the sequence and orientation so both limbs have the same internal stresses.
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Hamish, first I don't build many backed bows but I try to pre-tiller the belly side where the limbs have a nice even sweep so when I glue up (theoretically) I get a smooth evenly reflexed blank. I think the problem was me getting in a hurry and not getting the belly tiller evenly.
The one limb was stiffer than the other but I don't know if it was me or the wood. I appreciate your insight.
I'm better at deconstructing staves into bows than I am at putting boards together to make bows. ;)
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That's a hard struggling, I'm following with interest what you are doing ...
Good luck Pat!
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I got her cleaned up today rounded the osage belly edges and cleaned up the edges of both limbs. This time I allowed the osage belly to ride up the fades and I blended this into the handle. I'm gonna take this to the Classic and retiller her there. At least if she blows I'll be in good company. (--) ;D Here are a few pics. More after the Classic.
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...and a few more...
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Well, I got her shooting yesterday. Her name is "Wilsheblo" ::) . Put about 2 dozen arrows through her. She shoots pretty good, nothing special but pretty good. She came out at 47#@26". I'll add 5 to 6 coats of Tru-Oil with a satin poly over spray then a hemp cordage handle wrap with a floppy rest.
Here are a few pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/F0otlAw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aNWeftd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DS2mDDy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cTCpyX2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2zXwmAr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WAcYHnp.jpg)
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Nice looking bow Pat, love the bend...
Don
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I like it.
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very nice congrats on that,,one,, :)
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That turned out nice. Some bows just take a little longer than others :D
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Been following this. Glad you got ‘er done. Very nice sir!
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Thanks guys. I don't make many anymore so I do what I can to help them succeed. So far so good on this one. :OK
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Wow! that was a heck of a save pat and it looks good too!
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Great read, thanks for the build along. Cant wait to see pics after the finish goes on.
Mike
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What a great thread. It's been like a good suspense flick with all the ups and downs and unexpected twists in the plot. (W
I'm glad there's a happy ending! Awesome job Pat. 8)
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Thanks everyone. Here are a few finished pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/swp5mz7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5mxvGmU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FCP65X4.jpg)
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Nice :) ... I was expecting it to be 150# having added to back and belly ;) ::)
Del
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It was at one point, Del. ;D
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Now that was a long story, but at least a good end. Congrats for that nice stick and thanks for all your postings - it shows what we all can do when problems are showing up.
Great work, Pat!
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Thanks Simon. Unfortunately the lemonwood isn't the main character but it does seem to make a good core wood.
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Thanks Simon. Unfortunately the lemonwood isn't the main character but it does seem to make a good core wood.
Haven't worked with lemonwood so far, hard to get it here. But thanks for your input, I will do so if I ever get my hands on lemonwood.
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Nice.