Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on August 23, 2019, 01:21:14 pm
-
Is any one here familiar with that new method supposedly coming out. He is going to be putting out a book on it. I don't know what the procedure is but his bows did look impressive. I have a feeling that he is baking the raw stave before making the bow but that is only a guess. Most of the comments I have seen suggest he is a fraud but I am staying open minded on it.
-
Where can I see his bows ?
-
who is this?
-
I don't remember his name, I saw it on facebook. There are so many groups on facebook not sure I could find it again. Billy Berger is working with him.
-
Look up "Fire dancer bows DVD"
-
Its Billy Berger. I'm sceptical, but Billy has been working for a long time to make a name for himself, and I doubt he would risk it on snake oil. I dont know what can be so special about this new method, but it's hard to believe there could be one at all, using primitive methods anyway.
Maybe keeping the back cool, but baking the bow as Badger suggests, the trick would have to be in the treatment of the back. Keeping it elastic after a heat treat. Perhaps they soak it in antifreeze to prevent the back from losing its elasticity at all, and bake the entire bow.
-
oh! i recognise him! hes the primitive pathways guy.
-
I doubt its anything we haven't heard about. If this was legit they could have shown us a few example bows with stats. Set up a chronograph and that would speak for itself. By doing this they would prove there claim without revealing anything. I saw one reading in that video and it was in the 170. I don't really think that is all that different then what people are producing here in PA.
-
I doubt its anything we haven't heard about. If this was legit they could have shown us a few example bows with stats. Set up a chronograph and that would speak for itself. By doing this they would prove there claim without revealing anything. I saw one reading in that video and it was in the 170. I don't really think that is all that different then what people are producing here in PA.
Their biggest claim is that white woods will outperform osage with this new method. My thought is, if you are a good bowyer, there should be no difference anyway. I'm sure they have something, but what that something is, idk.
-
I think Billy Berger is helping him with the marketing but not the actual process. I saw some white wood bows the guy had that held a lot of reflex. I thought he was hitting in the 180's. The claim is that it will revolutionize white wood bow building.
-
I saw something several years ago that talked about Indians seeking out fire hardened trees that didn't burn all the way up. I have a feeling he is somehow duplicating this process.
-
I saw something several years ago that talked about Indians seeking out fire hardened trees that didn't burn all the way up. I have a feeling he is somehow duplicating this process.
Perhaps. I have made one fire killed white oak. The wood was destroyed from the rapid steam escape, it was micro splintered and failed. The bark was on it still.
-
I was wondering maybe like a burnt out canoe. Heat and burn out belly then split what was left.
I didn't watch the video. Is it only on Facebook?
Bjrogg
-
Heat treating the whole tree with fire was the reason behind the Natives looking for fire killed Ash trees and the like.
The Cherokees are said to have a documented method of building a controlled small fire around the base of a tree and managing it. Al Herrin had an article on this in TB magazine.
There's probably nothing new to it. Just a re-birth.
-
Heat treating the whole tree with fire was the reason behind the Natives looking for fire killed Ash trees and the like.
The Cherokees are said to have a documented method of building a controlled small fire around the base of a tree and managing it. Al Herrin had an article on this in TB magazine.
There's probably nothing new to it. Just a re-birth.
That's a best case scenario, and honestly, one I'm hoping for.
-
I think Billy Berger is helping him with the marketing but not the actual process. I saw some white wood bows the guy had that held a lot of reflex. I thought he was hitting in the 180's. The claim is that it will revolutionize white wood bow building.
Something I was doing 15 years ago
-
I think Billy Berger is helping him with the marketing but not the actual process. I saw some white wood bows the guy had that held a lot of reflex. I thought he was hitting in the 180's. The claim is that it will revolutionize white wood bow building.
I misunderstood I though the claim was faster as in faster then what has been achieved. I thought this because the video mentions that they can even beat fiberglass bows.
I doubt its anything we haven't heard about. If this was legit they could have shown us a few example bows with stats. Set up a chronograph and that would speak for itself. By doing this they would prove there claim without revealing anything. I saw one reading in that video and it was in the 170. I don't really think that is all that different then what people are producing here in PA.
Their biggest claim is that white woods will outperform osage with this new method. My thought is, if you are a good bowyer, there should be no difference anyway. I'm sure they have something, but what that something is, idk.
Sleek wouldn't whatever they are doing also be applied to osage and make it even better. But then I am assuming that they are talking about some form of heat tempering.
-
I think Billy Berger is helping him with the marketing but not the actual process. I saw some white wood bows the guy had that held a lot of reflex. I thought he was hitting in the 180's. The claim is that it will revolutionize white wood bow building.
I misunderstood I though the claim was faster as in faster then what has been achieved. I thought this because the video mentions that they can even beat fiberglass bows.
I doubt its anything we haven't heard about. If this was legit they could have shown us a few example bows with stats. Set up a chronograph and that would speak for itself. By doing this they would prove there claim without revealing anything. I saw one reading in that video and it was in the 170. I don't really think that is all that different then what people are producing here in PA.
Their biggest claim is that white woods will outperform osage with this new method. My thought is, if you are a good bowyer, there should be no difference anyway. I'm sure they have something, but what that something is, idk.
Sleek wouldn't whatever they are doing also be applied to osage and make it even better. But then I am assuming that they are talking about some form of heat tempering.
They made a statement that indicated osage only marginally benefits, so it does seem white wood specific.
-
not a facebook surfer, what is the gist of his "new method"?
-
I think Billy Berger is helping him with the marketing but not the actual process. I saw some white wood bows the guy had that held a lot of reflex. I thought he was hitting in the 180's. The claim is that it will revolutionize white wood bow building.
Something I was doing 15 years ago
You were the first one I thought of when I saw this. I couldn't imagine what he was doing different.
-
I think Billy Berger is helping him with the marketing but not the actual process. I saw some white wood bows the guy had that held a lot of reflex. I thought he was hitting in the 180's. The claim is that it will revolutionize white wood bow building.
Something I was doing 15 years ago
You were the first one I thought of when I saw this. I couldn't imagine what he was doing different.
I posted a comment on his youtube channel. Some people have no shame
-
I think Billy Berger is helping him with the marketing but not the actual process. I saw some white wood bows the guy had that held a lot of reflex. I thought he was hitting in the 180's. The claim is that it will revolutionize white wood bow building.
Something I was doing 15 years ago
You were the first one I thought of when I saw this. I couldn't imagine what he was doing different.
I posted a comment on his youtube channel. Some people have no shame
Is it possible it's an independent discovery? That does happen quite often. I've invented plenty of things that already existed.
-
Sleek, it is very possible that he stumbled on to something he didn't know existed but is already in use.
-
Billy was a regular on here nearly 20 years ago. He should know better.
-
They are being marketed as shannon fire dancer primitives by shannon outdoors. There’s more information on that site but it’s charlatan sales fluff like the video. Apparently he is going beyond ‘modern’ heat treating techniques and fully ‘fire hardening the wood. This makes me think he’s also cooking in resin or doing something like maelming.. It’s hard to believe he’s actually invented anything new when he won’t even say what it is he invented.
-
"I’m extremely excited to offer you a new type of wooden bow, a bow that will revolutionize how whitewood bows are made"
The above is a quote from The shannon outdoors website. Then goes on to say the process is some sort of heat treatment.
"The greatest advantage of Fire Dancer Bows is the transformation of the cellular structure of the wood after heat treating."
So how is it revolutionary when this is well known in the bowyer community?
-
It does say, transforming the cellular structure SFTER heat treating, not during or as a direct result of.
-
The cellular structure of the wood is plasticized from the heat that is already a known fact and was known when I started doing this years ago, nothing new there.
Billy was here often enough when I, and many others, were posting heat-treated bows. He would know better
Oh well you know what they say...imitation is the greatest form of flattery (lol)
-
On the same website there is a section that is called fire hardened.
" Considering the Indians applied fire hardening to practically everything and being aware that the known modern heat treating methods improve whitewood somewhat, I decided to experiment with actually fire hardening the wood."
-
Heat is heat. Marc has used the bed of coals method and even before Marc, Richard Brotzman had an article in Instinctive Archer showing how he used a propane torch to fire harden his bows.
Actual fire just sounds a bit more mystical.
I'm going to try using one of those parabolic mirrors and claim it's direct heat from the Sun
-
Heat is heat. Marc has used the bed of coals method and even before Marc, Richard Brotzman had an article in Instinctive Archer showing how he used a propane torch to fire harden his bows.
Actual fire just sounds a bit more mystical.
I'm going to try using one of those parabolic mirrors and claim it's direct heat from the Sun
I agree
I dont really care about the claims its the facts that Its made to sound as if its a new discovery and Its kind of disrespectful to the people who have been doing it long before.
I bet they dont even come close to Marcs bows either ;D
-
I am re inventing the wheel as we speak,, ;D :NN
-
Ok Ok! I never will claim such. That being said I have used the heat gun since 2004. I have improved my abilities to make wood bend and stay pretty much where I will go with it. Also I am sure I have tried lots of things like horn on the belly of a selfbow. None of which I am sure I did first! ;D the only title left would be the king of heat treatment. I’m not that either! Y’all know who did what . Wish I did. I’d know who’s brain to pick. >:D Arvin
-
Lol, so this is a lesson in BAD marketing. Shows me how to NOT advertise for the literary piece I am working on.
-
The saddest part is that his bows are nice enough without exaggerating. They look like great bows with nice profiles, absolutely respectable on their own merits. Since i’ve been hanging around here it’s obvious the most impressive bowyers are some of the least selfish with their ideas. Badger, if you talked like this guy it would set bowmaking back a decade and Marc wouldn’t be the King of heat treating without an entire kingdom of bowyers he taught to heat treat. Imitation is flattery and this guy treats it like stealing. Now he’s alone with his ideas and no better a bowyer for it
-
The saddest part is that his bows are nice enough without exaggerating. They look like great bows with nice profiles, absolutely respectable on their own merits. Since i’ve been hanging around here it’s obvious the most impressive bowyers are some of the least selfish with their ideas. Badger, if you talked like this guy it would set bowmaking back a decade and Marc wouldn’t be the King of heat treating without an entire kingdom of bowyers he taught to heat treat. Imitation is flattery and this guy treats it like stealing. Now he’s alone with his ideas and no better a bowyer for it
Well stated, but perhaps a bit premature. Let's at least see what this guy has first.
-
Heat is heat. Marc has used the bed of coals method and even before Marc, Richard Brotzman had an article in Instinctive Archer showing how he used a propane torch to fire harden his bows.
Actual fire just sounds a bit more mystical.
I'm going to try using one of those parabolic mirrors and claim it's direct heat from the Sun
I talked to Murray Gaskins many years ago about the experiments he and Richard did using a propane torch and he said it made no difference to speak of to the wood, which is why he had doubts about my claims
-
The cellular structure of the wood is plasticized from the heat that is already a known fact and was known when I started doing this years ago, nothing new there.
Billy was here often enough when I, and many others, were posting heat-treated bows. He would know better
Oh well you know what they say...imitation is the greatest form of flattery (lol)
Certainly why I have TRIED to imitate some of yours bows Marc. Pretty hard to make em exactly like the kings though. More to it than just burning a piece of wood. You still have the nicest tillered bows.
Bjrogg
-
Don’t get me wrong guys I would go to bat for probably 15-20 Bowyers on this site. Marc and Steve being just two. Two of the best and most knowledgeable Bowyers on this site. Both have taught me most of what I know about building a good bow not just a stick hurling another stick. I thank each and every one that shares there ideas both the great ones and the failures. Cause we can sometimes learn more from the failures than the successful tries. Keep building guys. Arvin
-
Heat is heat. Marc has used the bed of coals method and even before Marc, Richard Brotzman had an article in Instinctive Archer showing how he used a propane torch to fire harden his bows.
Actual fire just sounds a bit more mystical.
I'm going to try using one of those parabolic mirrors and claim it's direct heat from the Sun
I talked to Murray Gaskins many years ago about the experiments he and Richard did using a propane torch and he said it made no difference to speak of to the wood, which is why he had doubts about my claims
I wonder if he was trying to add any reflex or at what point he was treating the wood. Richard seemed to believe the idea had merit but he didn't mention reflex and his article didn't really try to qualify exactly what he was achieving with it. He was also roasting the whole bow, back and belly.
I think he experimented with leaving the bow strung for lengthy periods.
-
Just jumped in my mind:
Maybe he is trying to treat the bow as it would been hitted by a lightening strike. The natives liked it as bowwood, read that somewhere.
Don't ask me how to do this - high voltage isn't my thing I like to handle :-[
-
Just jumped in my mind:
Maybe he is trying to treat the bow as it would been hitted by a lightening strike. The natives liked it as bowwood, read that somewhere.
Don't ask me how to do this - high voltage isn't my thing I like to handle :-[
Lightning strike wood is a myth. It destroys the wood in the same way a forest fire does, only worse. It expands the wood cells from vapor expansion so quickly, the tree wants to explode and often does. I'm happy to see someone succeed, that would be special, but I'd bet against it.
-
Just jumped in my mind:
Maybe he is trying to treat the bow as it would been hitted by a lightening strike. The natives liked it as bowwood, read that somewhere.
Don't ask me how to do this - high voltage isn't my thing I like to handle :-[
Lightning strike wood is a myth. It destroys the wood in the same way a forest fire does, only worse. It expands the wood cells from vapor expansion so quickly, the tree wants to explode and often does. I'm happy to see someone succeed, that would be special, but I'd bet against it.
I ve seen such trees and can follow your thoughts,
Thanks for clearing out.
-
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dPzgDMTUnQ Add the "h" to the https: and watch...
Don
-
I just asked on his page for a specific example of a bows speed before and after the special treatment. If he says he was getting anything below 160 fps, and gained 10fps, I'm losing ALL interest. That's just typical bow making there.
-
A couple of years ago I did some experimenting with a process called "malming". The idea was to introduce resins into the belly of the bow whilst heat treating, that would support the belly, reduce set, and increase cast. I was using colophony dissolved in gum turps and brushing it on the belly with a manilla rope (doesn't melt) whilst applying high heat (400 C). It smelled great! The end result looked very much like what you see in the video at 0:23. The bow was clamped to a form at the handle and tips, in reflex, and slats of thin wood clamped to the profile of the bow. This created a channel that the heat would follow, and serve to increase heat on the belly, but protect the back. I did notice some improvement in cast and reduction in set.
Perhaps he has "re-discovered" malming?
It should be noted that I am using the term "malming" fairly liberally here. The actual process of malming is far more complicated than what I have been trying. I have simply been trying to mimic this process.
John gives a great explanation of the actual process here:
https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,64701.msg910032.html#msg910032
-
Yeah, Marc did this too many years ago.
-
A couple of years ago I did some experimenting with a process called "malming". The idea was to introduce resins into the belly of the bow whilst heat treating, that would support the belly, reduce set, and increase cast. I was using colophony dissolved in gum turps and brushing it on the belly with a manilla rope (doesn't melt) whilst applying high heat (400 C). It smelled great! The end result looked very much like what you see in the video at 0:23. The bow was clamped to a form at the handle and tips, in reflex, and slats of thin wood clamped to the profile of the bow. This created a channel that the heat would follow, and serve to increase heat on the belly, but protect the back. I did notice some improvement in cast and reduction in set.
Perhaps he has "re-discovered" malming?
It should be noted that I am using the term "malming" fairly liberally here. The actual process of malming is far more complicated than what I have been trying. I have simply been trying to mimic this process.
John gives a great explanation of the actual process here:
https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,64701.msg910032.html#msg910032
Faaaaascinating link and idea. Just yesterday I was thinking about how to disolve hide glue into a volatile solvent for this very purpose. I went to walmart this morning and am now getting ready to try acetone. I was thinking if I can fill the void between the fibers they would resist compression failure much better. Also considering water and sugar, letting it soak in until a specific density has been set, then cook the belly hard with heat, melting the sugars in it to the fibers, crystallizing them in there much like you do with carbon in steel when hardening it.
-
Now you're just talking about the same idea of resin impregnation of wood which is a well known process. Now it is done with artificial resin.
Osage and Yew basically have this naturally.
Bamboo flyrod makers have documented how impregnated rods hold their shape better and are more moisture resistant. They usually use proprietary mixtures of various substances and a vacuum chamber to draw it into the fibers.
-
Now you're just talking about the same idea of resin impregnation of wood which is a well known process. Now it is done with artificial resin.
Osage and Yew basically have this naturally.
Bamboo flyrod makers have documented how impregnated rods hold their shape better and are more moisture resistant. They usually use proprietary mixtures of various substances and a vacuum chamber to draw it into the fibers.
BUT... BUT... BUT... Mine is new never heard of, and better than anything you can think of!
Yeah, I didnt know about all that, But I do know about artificial resin impregnated wood. I was hoping to do it naturally.
-
Looks like Thad is impressed and that says a lot from my perspective...I guess when the DVD comes out we will see?
-
Make up a hard drying natural varnish mixture and draw it into the wood Will it be disqualified if you use a vacuum or pressure chamber?
-
Make up a hard drying natural varnish mixture and draw it into the wood Will it be disqualified if you use a vacuum or pressure chamber?
I'd try any way I can to get it in there, But I dont have the aforementioned.
-
The saddest part is that his bows are nice enough without exaggerating. They look like great bows with nice profiles, absolutely respectable on their own merits. Since i’ve been hanging around here it’s obvious the most impressive bowyers are some of the least selfish with their ideas. Badger, if you talked like this guy it would set bowmaking back a decade and Marc wouldn’t be the King of heat treating without an entire kingdom of bowyers he taught to heat treat. Imitation is flattery and this guy treats it like stealing. Now he’s alone with his ideas and no better a bowyer for it
This kinda sums it up for me. This approach just doesn't seem to jive well with the openness of the bowyer community. I don't have a problem with people making an honest living off of primitive archery (I am), selling bows, teaching classes, writing books, youtube channels, etc, that feels all par for the course. For some reason the way they are promoting this video just kinda sticks in my craw a little. Something super secret that has never been done before, only way to know is to buy this DVD... ::) ::) Maybe I'm splitting hairs or being hypocritical, I don't know. It just doesn't seem to take into account how we generally share information with each other. I feel like someone is going to watch the DVD and then, (if it's actually interesting), we will discuss the details of it in the open like we do everything else. Doesn't seem like the best marketing strategy. ;D Oh well, I'm not holding my breath. I'm mildly interested to see how the whole thing will play out.
-
This malming process does sound a bit like what I did/do while heat-treating. What I started doing many years ago was to apply conifer resin, usually Spruce or Pine, to the wood at the end of each section of tempered wood while it was still smoking hot. The resin would turn liquid and get drawn into the wood as it cooled, the amount of smoke produced was substantial and my wife would say I smell like a wood fire coming into the house (=). From observation I could tell that the resin was being drawn into the wood some 1/8" or more. It's debatable as to whether this made the wood stronger but I would think it added some moisture resistance. I don't remember exactly but it seems to me I did mention this in my section of the TBB 4
-
This malming process does sound a bit like what I did/do while heat-treating. What I started doing many years ago was to apply conifer resin, usually Spruce or Pine, to the wood at the end of each section of tempered wood while it was still smoking hot. The resin would turn liquid and get drawn into the wood as it cooled, the amount of smoke produced was substantial and my wife would say I smell like a wood fire coming into the house (=). From observation I could tell that the resin was being drawn into the wood some 1/8" or more. It's debatable as to whether this made the wood stronger but I would think it added some moisture resistance. I don't remember exactly but it seems to me I did mention this in my section of the TBB 4
When I get my books from storage I will read it again, it's been a few years.
I'd be excited to learn more about this.
-
Make up a hard drying natural varnish mixture and draw it into the wood Will it be disqualified if you use a vacuum or pressure chamber?
I'd try any way I can to get it in there, But I dont have the aforementioned.
Not hard to throw one together out of commonly available parts
-
Using a vacuum chamber would be going way too far away from "primitive" bow making. I already have some qualms about using modern glues and finishes, especially two part epoxy. I justify the occasional use of them by distinguishing "primitive" procedures like applying varnish with brush from "modern" procedures like building laminated bows, with or without fiberglass. For me, "primitive" bows need to be made using natural materials using just hand tools. If not, any "modern" materials or procedures should be able to be duplicated using just "primitive" materials or procedures, at least in theory.
-
Using a vacuum chamber would be going way too far away from "primitive" bow making. I already have some qualms about using modern glues and finishes, especially two part epoxy. I justify the occasional use of them by distinguishing "primitive" procedures like applying varnish with brush from "modern" procedures like building laminated bows, with or without fiberglass. For me, "primitive" bows need to be made using natural materials using just hand tools. If not, any "modern" materials or procedures should be able to be duplicated using just "primitive" materials or procedures, at least in theory.
No arguments from me there, but I still wanna know what can be done.
-
Using a vacuum chamber would be going way too far away from "primitive" bow making. I already have some qualms about using modern glues and finishes, especially two part epoxy. I justify the occasional use of them by distinguishing "primitive" procedures like applying varnish with brush from "modern" procedures like building laminated bows, with or without fiberglass. For me, "primitive" bows need to be made using natural materials using just hand tools. If not, any "modern" materials or procedures should be able to be duplicated using just "primitive" materials or procedures, at least in theory.
I agree with this totally. It is one thing to brush on some pine resin while heat treating; it's completely another to use modern synthetic resins and a vacuum chamber. Not interested, thanks!
Shoot, I've only just convinced myself it's okay to use Dacron for strings!
-
I did say natural varnish/resin. The idea was more as a study in what could be done rather than what should be done.
I'm sure you could just submerge a bow in a mixture and leave it until it saturated and then dry it out.
-
so to sum this up. this guy "comes up" with the idea of heat treating the whole stave saying it will revoulutionize primitive bow making upping the fps by a unbeliveable amount but only for white wood. This "amazing new" way to heat treat wood will out perform f********s bows and will hit above 180 fps.
i believe that we just had a discussion about how fast a bow can go. i mean DC made a bow go 193fps.
https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,66298.0.html
the cellular structure will be changed! (already is when normally heat treated) No one else can get a bow faster without this method! (well theres marc) and no one has come up with this before! (probably didnt know this already existed)
did i miss anything?
-
I was impressed that he hit 180 with a self bow using simple reflex. That's pretty rare. The d/r design has a distinct speed advantage over simple reflexed bows. But I still can't imagine what he is doing different???
-
I was impressed that he hit 180 with a self bow using simple reflex. That's pretty rare. The d/r design has a distinct speed advantage over simple reflexed bows. But I still can't imagine what he is doing different???
He didn't say how heavy his arrows were so he could be using 9 or 8 gpp arrows, not too hard to hit 180's with 8 gpp
-
Deerhunter,
The aboriginals have been fire hardening wood before we were thought of...Nothing new under the Sun according to my favorite book...Some will rewrite history at times...Maybe they have a rediscovery? I will be patient and see...
Don
-
Yea don i know. Thats kinda why im frustrated. We know how its done and how it was done and hes acting like it was all his idea. I might have been overeacting but i dont like the idea of someone taking an idea and saying that its theirs. But your right, we just have to be patient.
-
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRbwCgvTIys
-
He mentions stabilizing the wood, and making it hydrophopic, in this video. It certainly sounds a lot like this 'malming' process..
-
Just my impression, but this seems aimed at the green novice guys just getting started, marketing to them a DVD on how to make white wood bows,and with this revolutionary process, they will be faster than Osage. My guess is you gotta buy the DVD to learn the secrets. The secrets are things probably commonly known to most folks already building bows. Advertising it as a mystical ancient long forgotten art, is the hook. Color me skeptical, but open minded.
-
Yeah, I'm thinking there might actually be some interesting approach to or further development to already existing and well-known techniques.
This whole marketing approach is giving me a bad taste in my mouth though ..
.. but frankly also a little bit of a laugh. Look at that Primitive Pathways guy's face in those 'hero shots' where they are shooting their bows. He trying so hard to look badass, but he actually looks more like he really needs to visit the bathroom ;)
-
“Best self bows ever” Really? You’d think the guy was selling clam chowder. “Completely impervious to moisture” Come on, really? He clearly knows too much about making bows not to know these are ridiculous claims. Ridiculous claims need ridiculous evidence. At best he has something to say about his refinements to the heat treating process, but that doesn’t warrant talking like he does. The language in the videos and on the website is consistently marketing-oriented, so I find it hard to believe that suddenly when it comes to the one topic of heat treating we’re getting straight talk.
-
He says "the wood becomes hydrophobic" and then goes to explain that that stoppes it from taking set? That is definentially not true. The bow dosnt take set only because of moisture! Get this guy over to my debate class! >:D i really hope i heard that wrong!
-
I think most of you guys are trying to read to much into a commercial. This is all hype to get you to buy a DVD. He's deliberately exaggerating to catch your attention. The only thing to do is wait until the DVD is available and see exactly what he's offering. In a way you're actually helping him by creating controversy around his "system". Any press is good press.
-
considering primitive bows have been shot for a solid 5,000 years plus I highly doubt any of us are discovering anything. maybe relearning old tricks with modern tools and processes. certainly not trying to take anything away from anyone but to me it's hard to fathom that someone somewhere hasn't done something similar. We're just the generation that started putting it down in books in detail. Like DC said any press is good press
-
Yeah but I think they are selling DVD’s, not bows.
-
probably not gonna buy any dvds,,
I am happy just making my wood bows,,that being said, I am always pleased to learn something that primitive guys did to make there bows better,, if I want something impervios to water,, I will shoot a fiberglass bow,,, but I really enjoy the challenge of hunting with wood bow that is effected with the elements, its part of the challenge,, ok I dont use a sinew string,, but hey,, I barley know how to make one,,, ;D
-
I strongly suspect he is somehow making liberal use of viscous liquid lubricant sourced from the finest Ophidian reptiles. Best taken with sodium chloride particles.
-
I read all or most of the postings and it's clear a couple of things need to be clarified for emphasis.
I am very familiar with everything in the Traditional Bowyers Bible volumes, and I genuinely respect the quality of work involved, and all those who did that work.
If I didn't have something new to discuss in 2019, there would be nothing to talk about.
This also means what I am doing is -- for the 21st century -- something nobody has done (or at least not enough to have written about it themselves) for many decades.
My motivation was very clear and focused -- an interest in exactly what Native Americans did. It's well documented they liked trees killed by fire and/or subjecting entire staves to prolonged heat, for example hanging wood high in a lodge, longhouse, etc., over rising heat from a fire.
This means the whole point was to fire-harden an entire stave, nothing less than that, and test the results.
After doing this with 30 bows, I am satisfied the results are consistent, and anyone else can get the same results if they follow the same procedure.
The results are:
-- Hydrophobic wood. Even with no varnish or any other finish, the bows resist taking on increased moisture content in humid conditions. The finished bows show that even if abused by water itself, they return to an optimum 10 percent moisture content far more quickly than a routine piece of wood.
-- The resulting bows also yield a draw weight about 35% higher than an otherwise identical bow using untreated wood. This greatly reduces the bow's mass weight in relation to draw weight. The improvement to efficiency is considerable.
-- And yeah, less string follow. No surprise there.
And as to exactly how it's done, the DVD will address that.
-
Thank You for posting that, my recent interest has also been in prolonged heat. I need to find out optimum temps and minimum times so it will require some testing. You have every right to sell what you feel you have established. In all fairness to you I do see a lot more books and DVD's coming out. We will still continue to share our knowledge here and hopefully your methods will be looked at and hopefully improved on over time.
-
I read all or most of the postings and it's clear a couple of things need to be clarified for emphasis.
I am very familiar with everything in the Traditional Bowyers Bible volumes, and I genuinely respect the quality of work involved, and all those who did that work.
If I didn't have something new to discuss in 2019, there would be nothing to talk about.
This also means what I am doing is -- for the 21st century -- something nobody has done (or at least not enough to have written about it themselves) for many decades.
My motivation was very clear and focused -- an interest in exactly what Native Americans did. It's well documented they liked trees killed by fire and/or subjecting entire staves to prolonged heat, for example hanging wood high in a lodge, longhouse, etc., over rising heat from a fire.
This means the whole point was to fire-harden an entire stave, nothing less than that, and test the results.
After doing this with 30 bows, I am satisfied the results are consistent, and anyone else can get the same results if they follow the same procedure.
The results are:
-- Hydrophobic wood. Even with no varnish or any other finish, the bows resist taking on increased moisture content in humid conditions. The finished bows show that even if abused by water itself, they return to an optimum 10 percent moisture content far more quickly than a routine piece of wood.
-- The resulting bows also yield a draw weight about 35% higher than an otherwise identical bow using untreated wood. This greatly reduces the bow's mass weight in relation to draw weight. The improvement to efficiency is considerable.
-- And yeah, less string follow. No surprise there.
And as to exactly how it's done, the DVD will address that.
hmm, untill i can see your results in other bows with #s i will still be wondering and suspicious ???. but if what you say works and is true, let me be the first one to say that I was being an overglorified brat and jerk that thought he knew what he was talking about :-[. If your ok with me asking, (or challenging, whichever way you take it) maybe you make 2 sister bows from the same stave. same shape, size, character, draw weight, as close as you can get it, post them and the differences with complete honesty and care well see how it turns out and if this new method is really all it says it is. you dont need to tell us the specifics, (like how your new process works) just the steps (like just saying i did the new process). i think that would be pretty cool. maybe find out which white wood it works better on, if it helps osage too, their are just a lot of question that we could use having answered. I think thats why we've been kinda upset, we have had to guess. but untill we have solid proof, I dont trust it.
-
I read all or most of the postings and it's clear a couple of things need to be clarified for emphasis.
I am very familiar with everything in the Traditional Bowyers Bible volumes, and I genuinely respect the quality of work involved, and all those who did that work.
If I didn't have something new to discuss in 2019, there would be nothing to talk about.
This also means what I am doing is -- for the 21st century -- something nobody has done (or at least not enough to have written about it themselves) for many decades.
My motivation was very clear and focused -- an interest in exactly what Native Americans did. It's well documented they liked trees killed by fire and/or subjecting entire staves to prolonged heat, for example hanging wood high in a lodge, longhouse, etc., over rising heat from a fire.
This means the whole point was to fire-harden an entire stave, nothing less than that, and test the results.
After doing this with 30 bows, I am satisfied the results are consistent, and anyone else can get the same results if they follow the same procedure.
The results are:
-- Hydrophobic wood. Even with no varnish or any other finish, the bows resist taking on increased moisture content in humid conditions. The finished bows show that even if abused by water itself, they return to an optimum 10 percent moisture content far more quickly than a routine piece of wood.
-- The resulting bows also yield a draw weight about 35% higher than an otherwise identical bow using untreated wood. This greatly reduces the bow's mass weight in relation to draw weight. The improvement to efficiency is considerable.
-- And yeah, less string follow. No surprise there.
And as to exactly how it's done, the DVD will address that.
Interesting. Treating an entire stave is something I did not do in my research, at least not on purpose. The times I did accidentally toast the back did not give me any confidence that doing so would give me a reliable bow.
The hanging of wood, or a bow, in a lodge was not to heat-treat it, you need a lot more heat than that. It was to keep the wood dry. Whether natives actually did temper their bows is debatable, there are no known records of them doing this.
I remember making an Elm recurve for a friend in AR who brought the bow up to MoJam, this was in early 2000. He told me after that he had a few of his friends pull the bow back to full draw and hold it there and when he took the bow down it still held most of its reflex, the bow had several inches of reflex to begin with. The weather at the time was quite humid
Quite frankly I am skeptical of your claims since I didn't see anything on the videos I watched to indicate an improvement in performance over a regular heat-treated bow. A reduction in mass is also realized with a regularly heat-treated bow.
-
Shannon, thanks for clearing things up. Speaking clearly about your process like this is the kind of thing that makes me want to buy your dvd. I’m sorry I called you names, I was abraded by the marketing tone on your site and recent video but i was still out of line.. Personally I think you would have better dvd sales if you approached your marketing in this kind of clear way. That’s just me and now that we’re better friends I hope i can raise suspicion without raising dust. Maybe you’re the only one heat treating with your technique but personally i’ve heat treated entire bows at once and i would be very surprised if others havent. I’ve done it over long beds of coals, usually a limb at a time but also whole bows. I’m sure there’s more to how you do it. The maelming process for skis can use entire skis at once and some of these craftsmen are also bowyers. Fire hardening is an established and totally unforgotten process, it even has a very detailed wikipedia page. These aren’t fringe ideas on archery or primitive technology forums. It sounds like you have a worthwhile process worth teaching and selling, but I think that it would be much more attractive without the mysticism about it being long forgotten. I hope my suggestions aren’t taken the wrong way and that your dvd and bows come out well. Cheers, Dan
-
There's documented info regarding Eurasian tribes heat treating bow belly material over open fire and rubbing pitch into the heated material. Even photographs showing the process.
-
I have heat treated a green bow blank all night long over a camp fire, rotating it like a chicken on a spit, and had a cured bow the next morning. It was persimmon and was a fantastic bow. Very little set, and quite naturally it was a short bow. I attributed the wood to having all the benefits of the properties it had, not considering the possibility of the 10 hour heat treat I gave it as It was my first year of bow making.
-
I feel like the guys making bows thousands of years ago,, did things that have been forgotten,,,doesnt seem that much of a stretch that someone would heat the whole green stave to get a bow made faster,, so he could eat,,
maybe fire harden the belly,, even if it was by accident at first,, to think no one ever tried that seems more an impossiblilty,, but as said nothing documented from back then,, so I just use my imagination,,
I have an elm sapling in the back I have been eyeing,, if I cut it ,, I will try the fire curing for 8 hours or so and see how it goes,, should be fun,,,I think I will string it a bit backwards to prevent warping as it drys,,
sorry for the ramble ,, but when I think about humans building pyramids and such,, it just doesnt seem impossible that they made bows,, equal to our newly discovered techniques,,
to me its like being a drummer and thinking you discovered a new rhythm,, go back to africa and you will see that rhythm is there for thousands of years,, maybe forgotten here or in modern music,, not invented here,, but just rediscovered,, Music is alot like bow making,, People think the last 50 years is representive in both,, but its just a very small part of what has been done,,and forgotten,,,, I think I drank too much coffee ;D
-
When I was doing a lot of brain tanning, we would hang our hides and our bows high in the teepee. The smoke water proofed (in a manner) both, not so much the heat.
-
It seems though the method might be different but the end result is the same. Wether you are using heat gun or coals from a fire the bow wood is going through the same thing. Even if your method was different I still wouldn’t call it revolutionary. At best you might have slightly improved on some of the work that has already been done by people here on PA. I’ve read about fire killed trees a few years back so that is nothing new. I do hope you have something that will improve on what’s been done but I still am very skeptical.
-
It seems though the method might be different but the end result is the same. Wether you are using heat gun or coals from a fire the bow wood is going through the same thing. Even if your method was different I still wouldn’t call it revolutionary. At best you might have slightly improved on some of the work that has already been done by people here on PA. I’ve read about fire killed trees a few years back so that is nothing new. I do hope you have something that will improve on what’s been done but I still am very skeptical.
At this point a slight improvement over already known work is BIG, because I really feel it will be hard to get much better than we already are. Just to be fair...
-
It seems though the method might be different but the end result is the same. Wether you are using heat gun or coals from a fire the bow wood is going through the same thing. Even if your method was different I still wouldn’t call it revolutionary. At best you might have slightly improved on some of the work that has already been done by people here on PA. I’ve read about fire killed trees a few years back so that is nothing new. I do hope you have something that will improve on what’s been done but I still am very skeptical.
At this point a slight improvement over already known work is BIG, because I really feel it will be hard to get much better than we already are. Just to be fair...
No I agree with what you are saying might point is the foundation has been established before and isn't this mystical thing that we dont know about. Heat has been used before its nothing new and he might have something that improves on that but its that foundation that made it possible. I am just a skeptical person maybe I am wrong to think like that and I could definitely be wrong In fact I hope I am only way to better myself is to learn.
-
I have seen several references to bows made by natives using fire to quick cure. There was an account of an Apache who was captured and disarmed and then set free. Someone watched and photographed as he re- armed himself. One picture shows him working a stave over fire.
Alaskan Natives were said to work green birch in a fire and Doug Theiner wrote an article for PA showing a quickly made bow using the process. One added benefit is that a stave can be winter cut and the heating process will move moisture into the inner bark and allow it to be readily removed.
-
The accounts of natives using fire on bows does not necessarily mean they were heat-treating the wood, more like they used heat to remove moisture quickly. Heat-treating is a process that requires hours even over an open fire. Even the Eurasians could have been using heat to merely heat the wood up so that the natural sealants that was in use at the time could penetrate better, I've done that myself.. I'm not saying it wasn't done but concrete proof is just not there.
-
Perhaps but by the time you've removed moisture from a green stave it usually does take hours. I wouldn't be surprised if the char and scrape method used for other items was used with bows too.
-
It does but too much heat too fast and you ruin the stave/bow. Heat-treating green wood is just not an option. Don't know of a single example of a historically heat-treated bow in any museum or collection.
-
The bowyer from boston bows seems to think the mary rose bows were heat treated based on some telltale marks he saw in person. I’ve heard that opinion before but i think it’s more widely accepted that we just don’t know for sure. I have no idea i’m just saying what i’ve heard
-
Fellow archers its has been along time since I posted on this forum. Just wanted to add my opinion. I will not attack anyone here and believe we all can learn. First of all selling a book or dvd is not an evil. A lot of information today is free on YouTube or forums etc. but the best information is what someone has worked very hard at and that includes tons of research and historical data which no one gives up for nothing. I have never got a book or dvd "free" and I will spend money in the future to learn. I would never make a white wood bow that was raw wood. The heat treatment method by Mark St. Louis changed all of that for us and it is great. I have committed most of my life to the study of Southeastern native people. My family has two American Indian DNA haplogroups thru my grandfather and my grandmother had a small % Native American thru autosomal dna. Haplogroups determine your origin on this planet. This is why I had such a great interest in native people that live and lived in my region. We are related to the Siouan Catawban speakers in Coastal Virginia, North and South Carolina thru our last association with the Pee Dee Indians. This is from the Pee Dee River of the Southeastern United States. I also teach Native American migrational history and Native American DNA history. I have a very long history myself of making and using primitive bows and have produced two dvds on the subject. We can all agree to disagree but attacks are not good for any of us and our noble sport. I have been working with Keith Shannon with his project and will say he is one of the best bow makers I know and he would never claim that. Also he is an honest man that I trust. I have never seen anything about the man that made me think any negative thoughts about his character. He is smart and works very hard on his research. He asked me to be a part of this because of my historical knowledge on the Southeastern natives and my long use of white bows. Also Billy is a great guy. I have been on long hunting trips with him and found him to always carry his weight more than fairly in all cases. He has taken me on trips and give up his best hunting spots so I could take game with my primitive gear. … Yes he might be slightly eccentric "Naked at times" but we all are if you think about it for long. I have been seen in malls and public places wearing brain tanned buck skins. But no I am completely normal. LOL If you want to really know a man's true character hunt or fish with him a couple years and you will find out the truth. At any rate I will list just a few observations taken from the best historical documents known. These were made from first contact Europeans or very early contact Europeans of Spanish, French and English people. A lot of this data comes from The Indians of The Southeastern United States by John R. Swanton. 1946 The Classics of the Smithsonian Anthropology. The Southeastern Indians by Charles Hudson. 1973 Antiques of the Southern Indians, Particularly of the Georgia Tribes. By Charles C. Jones 1873. The list is long. The one thing that stands out in all of these fantastic books is the knowledge the natives had of "Fire Hardened" techniques. It was documented over and over. Adair in 1775 states the Indians in the Savannah river used fire hardened spears for fish. Bartram in 1792 states the same "Fire Hardened method for spears. Fire hunting and Fire fishing was used and documented. Firing pottery to forever change the material. Using fire to completely alter brain tan skins from the smoke/formaldehyde and other chemicals known to preserve wood. Even today formaldehyde is used in the construction of plywood and other wood products. It is in smoke naturally. Flint was altered by use of "fire" to permanently alter the material. Natives used fire to burn out bowls/Mortars and trees for dugout canoes. One could see the moisture repelling properties with a dugout at first glance. The Yuchee on the southern rivers were observed to fire hardened solid wood arrow shafts. Timberlake says of the Cherokee their bows are dipped in bear grease and seasoned before the fire. Were they just heating the grease to penetrate the wood? The wood "Seasoned" is telling because it speaks of a long process.
The key to seasoning lies in the word itself: A Season. A long process not a quick heating for fat penetration. My opinion for sure but I am entitled to an opinion. Speck specks of even minor small projectile points for blowguns being "Fire Hardened. Garcilaso in 1723 speaks of Fire Hardened arrows of the Alibamo Indians. From the history of the Historical Collections of Louisiana and Florida by B. F. French 1869 it was stated about the natives that forever what they make everything is harden first with fire. Natural History of East and West Florida. 1775. Hickory and other woods being used for the manufacture of their bows which they "natives" season "thoroughly" with artificial heat which is "Fire" Another account from after an attack on Europeans in Florida it was stated after finding weapons used in the attack that the natives fire hardened everything they made. Also the so called "black yew" which was found among the Utina and Timucua tribes around the St Johns river. There is no yew here in the southeast but hickory fire hardened looks amazing like yew. This was pointed out by Billy Berger who is very familiar with both species. This is a small sample of the natives knowledge of fire and the application of it in construction and altering of most everything they had. I have never believed for one minute that the native people here were ignorant of the negative effects moisture has on raw wood. I have used heated fat on raw hickory with bad results. After many applications and yes I heated the bow limbs to hopefully increase the fat penetration. And I was disappointed later with moisture gain. Native people used fire every day not just a hunting camp a couple of days a year. And they were out in the extreme humidity of our region most of the time. Bows were used not just for hunting in the fall but year round for war, fishing and simple defense from critters with teeth. The bows mentioned by the earliest Europeans are not weak follow the string white wood bows but weapons of great speed and strength. I believe the connection to what Keith has done and what the first native americans were doing is real. It would be a great argument in court anyway. Granted this knowledge was lost overnight with smallpox and the gun but it seems to me we see a correlation. I also know i could not cure cancer without some disagreement from someone. But they are entitled to an opinion based on their knowledge and experience. Also the native people in the Southeast thought of Fire as a sacred thing. Some tribes keep a fire burning all year long in the longhouse and putting it out only once during the Green Busk or New Year. It was a symbol of the sun which was the giver of life on earth. It must be remembered also that the American indian people today account for less than 2% of the population in the United States and that includes the Alaska Inuits and related people. What does that mean. Well it accounts for over 98% of native knowledge being lost. But the historical volumes from eye witness accounts are the best and only information we have other than us modern primitive archers to keep experimenting. Like Keith Shannon and Mark St Louis and Paul Comstock. Paul Comstock breaking the dam with the use of white wood bows when they were considered second string woods only used in the past by so-called primitive people. Even if a person used fire to "dry out a bow quickly from rain or river what is the chance that over thousands of years someone would not have "over" done the process. Millions of natives over thousands of years. Too believe that is not giving native people much credit. I did this very thing in my short 62 years by accident making a "survival" bow and I decided to speed things up with fire. It did not clink in my mind at the time but it changed the small survival bow for the better. This is the ugly bow in my DVD Native Arrows and Points. Lets keep an open mind and work together to move primitive archery forward. It is a passion for all of us.
-
Good info, but.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxus_floridana
-
Flint Arrow thanks for the information that was an interesting and agreeable read. I can only speak for myself but I think the general issue/skepticism is not with the technical aspects of the process you are describing but rather with the way it is being portrayed and marketed. Nothing you said is controversial and it all jives with the conversations on this topic for the last 20 years. This isn’t really forgotten information or a revolution. I’m not skeptical about improvements you might have brought to the table, just offput when you take credit for the shoulders you stand on rather than the ground you have covered yourself. You have all the right to market and sell your process, that’s not the issue. The way you’re talking about things here and the way you’re marketing are worlds apart. “best self bows ever” ha
would you say that on here?
-
PatM did you know the Yew you looked up on Wiki is in the panhandle of Florida only and is in a super small area less than 4 square miles. That's like trying to find Osage in Georgia. Technically you are right But...….
-
Santanasaur that is my point I don't believe what is being presented here is "Jiving with all that's been said on this forum for the past "20" years." That is our point. My opinion. "Not forgotten" no revolution. But no one has seen the video? Thanks for your comments.
-
Santana, We have never said anywhere or anytime that fire hardening was forgotten information or a revelation. Those have been your words. We have given credit time and time again to the ancients and to modern science. A week or so ago somewhere on this board, Deerhunter asked if anyone could give him advice on moisture management on a hickory stave/bow. The answers were the same answers that have been given for the last 20 years. The fact that you all gave those answers is the very proof that no one on this board has a clue what the "forgotten information" or "revelation" really is. When the DVD comes out the answers you all gave will be obsolete. Not trying to speak for Thad, but I am certain the answer to your question is yes.
-
PatM did you know the Yew you looked up on Wiki is in the panhandle of Florida only and is in a super small area less than 4 square miles. That's like trying to find Osage in Georgia. Technically you are right But...….
It is NOW but we're talking several hundred years ago. There's no Buffalo in the East now either.
Osage grew in a limited area and was traded for thousands of miles.
If Florida Yew was rated highly at all it would have moved around a bit too.
-
True again but also true we can't say it was ever wide spread and be certain. We do know white wood was used extensively east of the Mississippi river. My thoughts were that Yew was a tree that would be known to the early explorers and could have thought they were looking at yew but could have been another wood type. We will never know this completely. I do know that things have changed over many hundreds of years, And not always for the better with our valued hard woods for bows. Georgia is mostly pine now and millions of oaks and hickories have been reduced to nothing in many regions of the state. East coast florida, The st
Johns rivers region with the Utina and their enemy the Timuca living on the atlantic The short shaggy tree knarly tree jud know has the panhandle yew a very small limited i have never see any bow made
-
Shannon if you say those aren’t your words you should get them off your website. I don’t think i misquoted you in words or gist. You don’t have to read far into your website to find the exact quotes and sentiment you’re accusing me of inventing.
and since you put your money where your mouth is, i think we would all love to see the best self bows ever. Show us sometime. I can’t even imagine the specs
-
i am going to watch the old Mississippi boy hunting flint projectile om his channel called Ditchwalker he finds some great points Beautiful Jasper points from one then i will go eat a breakfash burrito
ll
-
I think most of you guys are trying to read to much into a commercial. This is all hype to get you to buy a DVD. He's deliberately exaggerating to catch your attention. The only thing to do is wait until the DVD is available and see exactly what he's offering. In a way you're actually helping him by creating controversy around his "system". Any press is good press.
Exactly my thoughts.
Come on guys wake up - you are all acting like they want you to!
Look into marketing tactics ;) You are being bombarded with this stuff constantly. Leave them alone, at least they got off their backsides and have produced a DVD. More than most people.
-
It is simple physics. You all know the wood equilibrium moisture content charts, which tells, what is the equilibrium moisture content in some ambient humidity. For example, google "wood equilibrium moisture content table". But, those tables hold true only, when wood is naturally air dried.
If you first dry wood to totally dry (moisture content 0 %) and let it get back to equilibrium moisture, the the wood equilibrium moisture contents will be much lower. For example, let's suppose that air dried stave is in relative humidity, which is 50 %. Then its equilibrium moisture content is in 20 C (68 F) about 9,2 %. But, if you first dry the stave totally dry, so "heat treat" it as a whole stave, then its equilibrium moisture content will be in 50 % relative humidity about 6–7 %. Much better!
The problem is that longer and harder (more heat) the heat treating is, the more difference in equilibrium moisture content, but wood will be more brittle also, as it loses its strength. It is not easy to find optimal heat treating parameters for the whole stave. Of course, the best solution would be to dry the stave totally (a day in oven, about 100–120 C (210–250 F)) and then make traditional heat treating to the belly of the tillered bow.
-
Santana, We have never said anywhere or anytime that fire hardening was forgotten information or a revelation. Those have been your words. We have given credit time and time again to the ancients and to modern science. A week or so ago somewhere on this board, Deerhunter asked if anyone could give him advice on moisture management on a hickory stave/bow. The answers were the same answers that have been given for the last 20 years. The fact that you all gave those answers is the very proof that no one on this board has a clue what the "forgotten information" or "revelation" really is. When the DVD comes out the answers you all gave will be obsolete. Not trying to speak for Thad, but I am certain the answer to your question is yes.
This is from Shannon primitive website. It says forgotten.
But what if there was a technique that would make whitewood bows immune to moisture? What if this technique was forgotten after archery was supplanted by the modern firearm? And what if, centuries later, this technique was rediscovered by a modern primitive archer with an innate curiosity of ancient ways? That’s what led to experimenting with fire-hardening that gave birth to Fire Dancer Bows
-
TBH it’s good that you rediscovered fire hardening I can only imagine how good Marc’s bows would be now. I think Marc was just spraying water on his bow limbs hahaha. All jokes aside I wish you great success and hope that your claims hold weight if they do I will be the first to buy your dvd.
-
Fire hardening of an entire stave at one time is not possible since the bow can only face a fire one side at a time, unless of course you stick it into an oven.
One bow I saw on his/their YouTube video was very similar to a bow I made in early 2000, it was a highly reflexed flatbow. The bow had a very uniform reflex and the only way you can make such a bow is to clamp it onto a form in reflex and then heat-treat the belly, you can't do anything to the back since it is on the form. You could then heat-treat the back once the bow is taken off the form. I really don't think they did this a few hundred years ago.
Anyway I guess all will unfold when their DVD comes out
-
I do think a fire allows pretty good heating of the whole bow despite only one side facing the actual heat source though. The "bubble" of hot air is going to be pretty uniform and not as prone to charring from bounce back as a form can be.
You do have to go with a backward brace rather than an actual form which is a bit more finicky regarding reflex distribution and keeping twist out. The ability to hit the whole limb at once does minimize this though.
If you just backward brace over a smaller heat source you tend to run into erratic reflex.
I use our backyard fire pit for heat treating now.
-
Shannon, I don’t think you can summarize the state of knowledge on heat treating on this site based on advice given to a beginner asking for beginner advice. This would be much a more productive conversation if we knew more about what you’re selling. I mean, when I i buy a book there’s a blurb that summarizes what i’m getting. I would be suspicious if a book flap said things like best book ever or totally revolutionizes obsolete writing techniques from the last 20 years. I’d wanna preview some revolutionary writing before I put my money down and I wouldn’t buy a book that only talks about how great it is without summarizing what’s in it. So far all you’ll say is that you rediscovered a fire hardening technique. Fire hardening is well established in primitive circles and the fact that it may or may not have been forgotten to bowyers on this continent doesn’t speak for the rest of the world.
I really hope you have something interesting, but if giving us a whiff of your perfume is enough to copy the whole thing, well then all you’ve got is a scent and no perfume to sell. The value is in the dvd and not in a scaled abstract summary of it. I think you can give more away without losing value. Show us the scratch and sniff version of your process and this could be a much more productive discussion, both for us and for your sales.
Now marketing these as the best self bows and best wooden bows ever, and then coming to the bowyers bar and validating the claim, well there is no fragile shipping option for that kinda package. Show us what you got
.
-
it seems like guys that could make a pyramid,, could make a caul,,if need be,,
yes of course maybe they didnt,, but it does not seem that impossible to me,,
or dig a pit and heat it like an oven,, with the caul on it,, if they wanted,, I am just guessing,, but doesnt seem out of the realm of possibility,, I am not worried,, my osage bow is immune to moisture,, and I am not that into heat treating,, I have a great plum bow ,, made by one of the best bowyers in the world,,it was not heat treated,, and I think it shoots amazing,,, :BB
-
I do think a fire allows pretty good heating of the whole bow despite only one side facing the actual heat source though. The "bubble" of hot air is going to be pretty uniform and not as prone to charring from bounce back as a form can be.
You do have to go with a backward brace rather than an actual form which is a bit more finicky regarding reflex distribution and keeping twist out. The ability to hit the whole limb at once does minimize this though.
If you just backward brace over a smaller heat source you tend to run into erratic reflex.
I use our backyard fire pit for heat treating now.
Well Pat as someone who has toasted a few bows over a fire I can tell you that you would need a bit of magic to heat-treat both side of a bow that way.
A fire, a good bed of coals actually works better, does temper wood quite well though and in fact you can pretty well do one whole limb at a time.
A backwards brace is trickier to do, perhaps you'll remember I actually started out doing it that way originally, and getting a uniform shape practically impossible.
I thought I saw them using a form in their YouTube vid
-
A couple times i’ve heat treated whole bellies while clamped in a form over a long trench of coals. I like that more than a fire pit. Works better for straighter bows since I haven’t figured out how to build up the coals to match the profile of recurves. I’ve gotten better heat treating cooking the whole limb still like a steak rather than moving it around the fire like I would have to do with a non straight limb. Maybe I’m missing something but i always thought it was good that the back wasn’t directly exposed to heat like the belly
-
I do think a fire allows pretty good heating of the whole bow despite only one side facing the actual heat source though. The "bubble" of hot air is going to be pretty uniform and not as prone to charring from bounce back as a form can be.
You do have to go with a backward brace rather than an actual form which is a bit more finicky regarding reflex distribution and keeping twist out. The ability to hit the whole limb at once does minimize this though.
If you just backward brace over a smaller heat source you tend to run into erratic reflex.
I use our backyard fire pit for heat treating now.
Well Pat as someone who has toasted a few bows over a fire I can tell you that you would need a bit of magic to heat-treat both side of a bow that way.
A fire, a good bed of coals actually works better, does temper wood quite well though and in fact you can pretty well do one whole limb at a time.
A backwards brace is trickier to do, perhaps you'll remember I actually started out doing it that way originally, and getting a uniform shape practically impossible.
I thought I saw them using a form in their YouTube vid
I do remember that bow and the hot plate heat source. I do think using a larger or longer heat source mitigates those problems greatly.
I was thinking that less of a heat treat of the back is a safer option so not actually having it face the fire is better all around.
The lack of a caul while heating can be offset by just quickly moving the stave to the form immediately after removing it from the fire. Just like steaming.
-
what’s the trouble using a caul over fire? its a bit awkward to manipulate but if you get nice coals you won’t have to move things much. I’ve bound cauls with thick rope so i don’t have to put clamps in the fire. It’s very clumsy if you want to keep moving the stave like a marshmallow but fine for cooking staves more like a steak. I still use a heat gun because that switch is very convenient
-
It will come out in time. When we release the dvd and not before. No person has to pay for anything. No one is bending your arm to do anything. That is your call. You will have to wait like any other person who has an interest. If you do not have an interest well keep your money in your pocket. The world does not revolve around opinions at the bowyers bar. Thousands of primitive archers do not worship at the Bowyers bar. We just wanted to share our concept but i was hoping for a more open minded reaction. Seems some try to dissect each word trying to find fault. Hinging on each word looking for something to prove someone wrong. I am very disappointed with the nature of this forum and will not be back. This is how you think we should treat fellow bow makers. Count me out. Show us what "you" have added to the world of primitive archery. We known you can be critical with words but show me your physical contribution. No work or experiments? Paul Comstock, Mark St. Louis, and now Keith Shannon has worked very hard to move the use of white wood bows forward. What is your claim to fame. Hero with words. I understand the Title one wants as forum top dog....but tell me your contribution. Chime in, there is no fragile shipping charge for you sharing your vast knowledge here. This is my last post. Sorry it was controlled by snipers looking to make a forum name for themselves. Someone on this forum even talked about how Billy's facial features looked when shooting his bow and it was said he looked like he was taking a dump. Really. Forum Rules? We have always give credit to the people that came before us. We just wanted to share our information. Not to be attacked and called fakes and liars . Someone referred to Billy taking a dump..Really. The forums rules are not being applied here equally and personal attacks are not permitted by your own rules. I have had a subscription to Primitive Archer since the first magazine came out and last i heard Primitive Archer still control this forum. But i am wasting words here and will not use this forum. Are you happy now it all yours. This does not help promote a positive attitude toward Primitive Archer Magazine or the sport of primitive archery.. You can debate but personel attacks will not cut it. No need to respond i am not interested . Gone from here.
-
Wow. I have been away for a week........... That escalated quickly.
Speaking for myself, I am keen to see this technique, and apply it to my own bows. I will be getting the DVD as soon as it is available.
And, if Shannon has indeed re-introduced a forgotten or revolutionary method of heat treating a bow, I will hence be referring to the process as Shannon Fire Hardening. Respect.
I am sorry for the loss of Flint Arrow.
kbear off comms.
-
+1 Kbear, There are times I am embarrassed to be a member here, this is one of those times...
-
Wow, 118 replies, and 2414 views. Seems like inquiring minds want to know.Time will tell.
-
It will come out in time. When we release the dvd and not before. No person has to pay for anything. No one is bending your arm to do anything. That is your call. You will have to wait like any other person who has an interest. If you do not have an interest well keep your money in your pocket. The world does not revolve around opinions at the bowyers bar. Thousands of primitive archers do not worship at the Bowyers bar. We just wanted to share our concept but i was hoping for a more open minded reaction. Seems some try to dissect each word trying to find fault. Hinging on each word looking for something to prove someone wrong. I am very disappointed with the nature of this forum and will not be back. This is how you think we should treat fellow bow makers. Count me out. Show us what "you" have added to the world of primitive archery. We known you can be critical with words but show me your physical contribution. No work or experiments? Paul Comstock, Mark St. Louis, and now Keith Shannon has worked very hard to move the use of white wood bows forward. What is your claim to fame. Hero with words. I understand the Title one wants as forum top dog....but tell me your contribution. Chime in, there is no fragile shipping charge for you sharing your vast knowledge here. This is my last post. Sorry it was controlled by snipers looking to make a forum name for themselves. Someone on this forum even talked about how Billy's facial features looked when shooting his bow and it was said he looked like he was taking a dump. Really. Forum Rules? We have always give credit to the people that came before us. We just wanted to share our information. Not to be attacked and called fakes and liars . Someone referred to Billy taking a dump..Really. The forums rules are not being applied here equally and personal attacks are not permitted by your own rules. I have had a subscription to Primitive Archer since the first magazine came out and last i heard Primitive Archer still control this forum. But i am wasting words here and will not use this forum. Are you happy now it all yours. This does not help promote a positive attitude toward Primitive Archer Magazine or the sport of primitive archery.. You can debate but personel attacks will not cut it. No need to respond i am not interested . Gone from here.
I would have to disagree, in part anyway, with some of these statements. Everyone on this board with a passion for this art contributes to our knowledge base. I myself have learnt many useful tips from members here. Sniping though, if there was any, do not show the better side of this board. As to comments on facial expressions, well I've been the recipient of some of those myself and did not take offense...it was true (lol). Best not to take oneself too seriously when posting pictures of oneself :OK
-
It will come out in time. When we release the dvd and not before. No person has to pay for anything. No one is bending your arm to do anything. That is your call. You will have to wait like any other person who has an interest. If you do not have an interest well keep your money in your pocket. The world does not revolve around opinions at the bowyers bar. Thousands of primitive archers do not worship at the Bowyers bar. We just wanted to share our concept but i was hoping for a more open minded reaction. Seems some try to dissect each word trying to find fault. Hinging on each word looking for something to prove someone wrong. I am very disappointed with the nature of this forum and will not be back. This is how you think we should treat fellow bow makers. Count me out. Show us what "you" have added to the world of primitive archery. We known you can be critical with words but show me your physical contribution. No work or experiments? Paul Comstock, Mark St. Louis, and now Keith Shannon has worked very hard to move the use of white wood bows forward. What is your claim to fame. Hero with words. I understand the Title one wants as forum top dog....but tell me your contribution. Chime in, there is no fragile shipping charge for you sharing your vast knowledge here. This is my last post. Sorry it was controlled by snipers looking to make a forum name for themselves. Someone on this forum even talked about how Billy's facial features looked when shooting his bow and it was said he looked like he was taking a dump. Really. Forum Rules? We have always give credit to the people that came before us. We just wanted to share our information. Not to be attacked and called fakes and liars . Someone referred to Billy taking a dump..Really. The forums rules are not being applied here equally and personal attacks are not permitted by your own rules. I have had a subscription to Primitive Archer since the first magazine came out and last i heard Primitive Archer still control this forum. But i am wasting words here and will not use this forum. Are you happy now it all yours. This does not help promote a positive attitude toward Primitive Archer Magazine or the sport of primitive archery.. You can debate but personel attacks will not cut it. No need to respond i am not interested . Gone from here.
Top forum dog? is that why you think we post? ??? welp suit yourself.
I think you misunderstand why we are commenting and why we say stuff. we talk to find educated truths and not educated guesses. if one person says that their way is better than others, (Which i'm talking generally) and no one tries to find out the truth and just guesses, their is a good chance that they could be wrong. Now as what you call "personal attacks" there are some that could be and some that are justified. Facial expressions i would say is justified, because no matter what were doing or what were trying to do, looks do affect the human brain in good and bad ways. Imagine you could say two bows. one glossy, recuved, tip overlays, and all the other frills. then another, exactly the same performance wise and wood wise, very plain with no frills and a OK stain/coating. Which one would you want?
Also when do you say that you are disappointed in us? some of us may have let emotion in, maybe got confused, or just wasn't clear in what they were trying to say. but then who are you to tell us that our mistake is beyond our own worth and that we cant see our mistake and fix it, I would say you have no right to judge me or the people in this thread. we can make mistakes and learn from them and you have the right to point it out in a nice way, but for you to act like you are above us and can tell us that we aren't living our lives right, and that you have the authority to "be disappointed in us."
Their are few things that get on my nerve one is People thinking that their above me and other people. you just hit one that one dead center. You want to leave PA, well that's your choice.
-
To be fair none of these three guys have really active on here at all in a helpful way. Billy used to be. So to criticize contributions is rather unfair.
A simple tip of the hat to Marc and then saying they've expanded on that would have sufficed.
-
For over a month before Billy's "Fire Dancer High Performance White Wood Bows DVD trailer" on Youtube was recognized by people on this board, we had overwhelmingly great responses. Then Marc appeared in the comments of the trailer and publicly stated, "it sounds like they are trying to lay claim to something that does not belong to them." Which is absolutely not true and an extremely bold statement since he does not know the details of what we are doing. He then immediately came to this board and referring to the trailer stated "some people have no shame." At this time the munchkins rushed to his side and this board went nasty. You might take it a little different if the comments and insults from members of this board were hurled at you.
-
So you're saying nothing you are doing has any relation to what Marc brought back and expanded on and therefore he deserves no mention at all?
-
For over a month before Billy's "Fire Dancer High Performance White Wood Bows DVD trailer" on Youtube was recognized by people on this board, we had overwhelmingly great responses. Then Marc appeared in the comments of the trailer and publicly stated, "it sounds like they are trying to lay claim to something that does not belong to them." Which is absolutely not true and an extremely bold statement since he does not know the details of what we are doing. He then immediately came to this board and referring to the trailer stated "some people have no shame." At this time the munchkins rushed to his side and this board went nasty. You might take it a little different if the comments and insults from members of this board were hurled at you.
Those who mind dont matter those who matter dont mind....
I personally dont mind if you were to stop whining and rely on the substance of your DVD to speak for you. It was bad advertising plain and simple. This is reminding me of when a comedian told bad jokes, then got mad at the audience for not laughing, like it was their fault he wasn't funny.
Plain and simple, your advertising isn't well recieved among certain people, your ( not specifically yours ) whining about criticism isn't well recieved by others, myself included. Defend your stance, say your piece, and go on.
You left us with nothing to do but speculate on your DVD with nothing to reference but our already existing knowledge. What did you expect? We aren't exactly a stupid inexperienced crowd here. Inexperienced folks bite on that type of advertising, dont believe me, sample your supportive crowd, experienced folks may get rubbed wrong. If inexperienced is the crowd type you want, you nailed it. No harm in that, teach them what you have to know, let us others be spared of incompetent whining and bad advertising.
-
I have little problem with any of this. You want to promote and sell an idea...giddy up. If it has value it will likely do well. If it’s just an attempt at making a quick buck and nothing more... it will flop. We will get to judge the merits of these claims as soon as a few people buy the DVD. As to the intemperate comments on this post, come on. If a few snarky things thrown around here ran you off, you wouldn’t hang too long with my boys.
-
i'm with sleek all the way. you tried to bring up a claim (a big claim to that), expected us to believe you without any questions asked so when we asked questions you didn't you didn't answer us with any solid proof, and now your surprised with how were reacting? also, Munchkins? that's how you see us? you see, your seeing us as people that are inexperienced, as people that just follow and copy.
-
For over a month before Billy's "Fire Dancer High Performance White Wood Bows DVD trailer" on Youtube was recognized by people on this board, we had overwhelmingly great responses. Then Marc appeared in the comments of the trailer and publicly stated, "it sounds like they are trying to lay claim to something that does not belong to them." Which is absolutely not true and an extremely bold statement since he does not know the details of what we are doing. He then immediately came to this board and referring to the trailer stated "some people have no shame." At this time the munchkins rushed to his side and this board went nasty. You might take it a little different if the comments and insults from members of this board were hurled at you.
You got overwhelming good responses but when someone criticizes your claims you you don’t like it. I don’t understand why you think Marc shouldn’t have commented and called You out.. Now you insult him after you say you guys always have given him and people before him respect for what they have done. So where is that respect now? Your true colors are showing.The people who insulted you or billy don’t represent all of us. Stop trying to straw man the argument and make it personal. All we said is what we seen from the video has been talked about before. The. We checked your sight and found your method about fire hardening and you claimed that you rediscovered it which is outright bullshit. Which by the way you denied was on your website then you were proven wrong.
-
To be fair these guys did not post this on here. In fact I'd bet they hoped it would entirely slip under the radar until the supportive crowd had all paid for it.
-
Yep. Exactly why I think it is aimed at the newbies.
-
This is getting a little silly. The issue is whether there is a new or better heat treating method. Don't worry too much about how it was presented. So far as I know, I have not seen anything new or better, yet. Still just waiting and trying to remember what is the best we have so far.
Believe it or not, there were quite a few hints about the current state of our knowledge so far, here. That's the power of debates. But the presentation of our current knowledge will be much better if we stop referring to vague claims too much.
Is it better to heat the whole bow instead of just heat treating the belly? Is it better to keep the whole bow rather warm after heat treating the belly? How about applying pine pitch or resin? Should we add anything to them, like ashes or mud dust? Should we be applying them during the heat treating or after it? Any constructive answers to these questions?
To keep it simple, first let's just ask ourselves whether we should apply any kind of resin, after heat treating the belly, please.
-
Well I will be surprised,,,if performance is greatly improved...over what bows are shooting now,....seems that Would not be kept a secret,,,Some chronograph results would make comparisons easier,..or validate the techniques positive effects on the wood,..very interesting either way..wouldn't be giving up any secrets to post performance of enhanced bows,,.. )P(
-
Well I will be surprised,,,if performance is greatly improved...over what bows are shooting now,....seems that Would not be kept a secret,,,Some chronograph results would make comparisons easier,..or validate the techniques positive effects on the wood,..very interesting either way..wouldn't be giving up any secrets to post performance of enhanced bows,,.. )P(
I asked about that earlier. I'd like to see what the bows shoot before and after. What they shoot before tells me just how good a buyer these guys are for starts and not making bad bows intentionally just to improve them with heat, to get bigger returns. Any initial speeds under 160 I wo t take seriously.
-
If my comment about Billy’s facial expressions were taken badly, I’m sorry. It was not my intention to ridicule Billy, I was simply trying to poke goodnatured fun at what I still think is a rather silly marketing strategy. I’m holding my opinion on the actual contents of the DVD untill I actually see what its all about. I’ve seen most of Billy’s youtube archery content and respect anyone who’s contributing to spreading the hobby.
-
For over a month before Billy's "Fire Dancer High Performance White Wood Bows DVD trailer" on Youtube was recognized by people on this board, we had overwhelmingly great responses. Then Marc appeared in the comments of the trailer and publicly stated, "it sounds like they are trying to lay claim to something that does not belong to them." Which is absolutely not true and an extremely bold statement since he does not know the details of what we are doing. He then immediately came to this board and referring to the trailer stated "some people have no shame." At this time the munchkins rushed to his side and this board went nasty. You might take it a little different if the comments and insults from members of this board were hurled at you.
That comment I made was in response to someone saying that a DVD of the TBB would be a good thing, not what this DVD is about.
I was going by what I have seen in those vids, which don't show anything new and in fact seem to use much of what I have been doing over the years. I guess the truth will come out when you release your DVD. If it is a revolutionary as you say then it will speak for itself
Good luck
-
This will be my fourth and last post here. Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading. I stand on every word on my website. I have never said I invented fire hardening. A "unique fire hardening method?" Yes. A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made? The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public. Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely. Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different? Absolutely Not! I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%. I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears. When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's! My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed. But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD. The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways. My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else. The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete. White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage. I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing. I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents. I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government. And you are trying to tell me about marketing? You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is. The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers. Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang. You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it. Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment. Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me. What Thad said. No need to reply. Not interested. Gone for good.
-
"The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways. My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else."
It has no connection but it's currently similar? Huh?
-
What about chrono results...that would really be great,..10 gpp...then it would validate out shooting other bows.,.also how many times the bow was shot before test and type of string,..I think that is what I am most curios about...resistance to moisture is great,,,but a hard shooting bow is important as well,..tells a Lot about the bow,.and maker,,if you don't post test results,.it will be hard to acknowledge your claims,..I have been posting here for quite a while,,,the guys here are very reasonable,.brilliant and talented,.the combined years of experience,..makes it a great site to learn,.as knowledge is freely shared and backed up with test results
-
Right here, Brad.
h ttps://shannonoutdoors.com/Primitive-Bow
fix the gap, not sure if he's a sponsor.
-
This will be my fourth and last post here. Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading. I stand on every word on my website. I have never said I invented fire hardening. A "unique fire hardening method?" Yes. A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made? The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public. Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely. Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different? Absolutely Not! I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%. I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears. When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's! My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed. But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD. The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways. My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else. The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete. White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage. I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing. I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents. I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government. And you are trying to tell me about marketing? You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is. The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers. Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang. You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it. Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment. Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me. What Thad said. No need to reply. Not interested. Gone for good.
Bye Felicia
-
thanks Pat, those numbers are very respectable,, but in line with what guys are shooting here, and not as high as some,, also no mention on how many times the bow had been shot,, which will effect chrono results as well,, also from Test DC had made,, he says the bows shoot a bit faster with machine than fingers,, dont really have much experience with that,, I think I remember Steve saying his release was a bit faster than machine,,,so seeing that info,, I still am of the opinion,, some of the best bows in the world are made by guys posting here,, I have been posting since early days on Leatherwall, and have seen guys get offended and drop off many times before,, this can be a tough crowd,,guys here have devoted a large part of their lives to making bows, and really know what they are talking about,, and back it up with quality and performance that speaks for itself,,
I will add that I read when looking at the specs,, it says" they clearly out perfrom every other bow,,"
that just wouldnt be the case with numbers posted,,,,, and may be the reason for some of the negative response that has occured,,
-
This will be my fourth and last post here. Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading. I stand on every word on my website. I have never said I invented fire hardening. A "unique fire hardening method?" Yes. A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made? The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public. Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely. Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different? Absolutely Not! I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%. I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears. When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's! My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed. But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD. The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways. My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else. The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete. White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage. I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing. I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents. I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government. And you are trying to tell me about marketing? You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is. The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers. Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang. You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it. Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment. Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me. What Thad said. No need to reply. Not interested. Gone for good.
Wait hold on, I just read what you wrote again
You state that because we dont agree with you our reading comprehension is faulty? And how is that supposed to motivate me to want your information?
As for you feeling like we are stating you claimed to invent fire hardening... We aren't saying that. You are, by omission of precious details. You say you use heat to make bows better, buy your dvd to see how! Well duh, we got that figured out already, thank you Marc for putting forth effort to show how and why heat works, the science behind it, etc... Even if he didnt invent it himself, he gave us understanding of it. Your ad gives no understanding of your product. Bad advertising. If it were GOOD advertising, you would be in such a defensive posture right now would you?
You claim you are native and therefore we should value your opinion more? Hell, I am Scott Irish and Native, Does that mean I can drink, fight and shoot good? Your DNA doesnt make you good at something, if it did, I'd be a rocket surgeon as my grandfather worked on the Apollo project. Trail of tears had nothing to do with your DVD and your attempt to connect the two is disgraceful and disingenuous. You have lost any Intellectual argument when you try to win an argument with emotion rather than logic. So blatant and obvious at that. And I am supposed to think you are smart? Then you state you were following the ways of your people, not Marc's. That makes it YOURS and not Marc's? That gives you rights to it more than him? 21 % native... so proud. Hey, high five to your mom and dad for copulating, you had nothing to do with it, so why are you claiming it to establish your pathos? More like 21% naive.
3 years of methodology... and you say we aren't as good as you. I may have 3 years of bow building if you add every minute I spent making and studying it over the last 9 years. I'm not new, and dont toot my own horn, though I do try to get recognition for accomplishments.... by actually accomplishing them.
All I asked for validation of your claims was some some FPS. You respond with attacking an early first attempt I made at you tube? Seriously? Hell, I cant post images on here well, modern tech ain't my thing, yet because I'm deficant there, that means my ill reception of your whining and bad advertising is invalid? If that's the case, IF I HAD liked your advertising and sympathized with your plight here, it would be an equally invalid a point of view for the same reasons you state that it isn't valid. You boxed yourself in intellectually there. Aside from that, I'm not the guy who claims to have a master's degree in advertising, or who's responsibility it is to actually do the advertising. That's yours and you sucked. Plain and simple. Be glad I'm polite enough to be honest. That's rare these days. Appreciate me.
You state white wood bows can be built without the hand shock of osage. Pardner, my osage doesnt have handshock. That went away when Lebhuntfish, who is less experienced than I am, TAUGHT me through logical explanation ( see, I can learn from younger knowledge) how to time my limbs. I'm a better bowyer for it and appreciate him. Point is, if you have hand shock, you need to build better bows, not better heat treat. Heat wont fix handshock, and moisten doesnt cause it. I can build a green wood bow fresh cut that has no handshock, wont shoot fast, but wont have any shock. Your arguments give away you lack of ability and knowledge in bow making. I'm not nocking you for having trouble with certain things, just saying the obvious here. It's like putting finish on a bow, you want to present it, but only when you polish it do you discover the flaws in your work. Be grateful, improve, and move on.
There should be no difference in performance between osage and any suitable white wood, for a bow. If there is, you didnt do your job well.
Also, learn to present an argument better, you are very deficient in that skill set as well.
-
thanks Pat, those numbers are very respectable,, but in line with what guys are shooting here, and not as high as some,, also no mention on how many times the bow had been shot,, which will effect chrono results as well,, also from Test DC had made,, he says the bows shoot a bit faster with machine than fingers,, dont really have much experience with that,, I think I remember Steve saying his release was a bit faster than machine,,,so seeing that info,, I still am of the opinion,, some of the best bows in the world are made by guys posting here,, I have been posting since early days on Leatherwall, and have seen guys get offended and drop off many times before,, this can be a tough crowd,,guys here have devoted a large part of their lives to making bows, and really know what they are talking about,, and back it up with quality and performance that speaks for itself,,
I will add that I read when looking at the specs,, it says" they clearly out perfrom every other bow,,"
that just wouldnt be the case with numbers posted,,,,, and may be the reason for some of the negative response that has occured,,
What numbers? I didnt see any and that's what I want to see
-
If your black, you know how to dance.
If your French, you know about wines.
If Italian, cooking comes natural.
Irish are easily angered.
Germans know beer.
Canadians, they are just naturally friendly.
Native Americans, it’s bows.
This attitude drives me to drink (being Scottish).
-
Sleek its under performance ,, after you click on the bows
-
If your black, you know how to dance.
If your French, you know about wines.
If Italian, cooking comes natural.
Irish are easily angered.
Germans know beer.
Canadians, they are just naturally friendly.
Native Americans, it’s bows.
This attitude drives me to drink (being Scottish).
I'm laughing at this in multi linquistical toungs, as I was born having the gift for Scott, Irish Cherokee, and Seminole.
-
He isn't advertising any numbers that I dont get on average when I'm NOT building a super short bow, and most of those are in that ballpark anyway. I can get his performance with less wood ( osage ) than he is getting with longer lengths.
Maybe I need to write a book on how I do it LMAO...
I can get this level of performance from elm with a simple MARC STYLE heat treat, no problem, never noticed a moisture problem from my bows, just a little tallow fixes that problem in the rain even. I'd like to challenge this guy in a head to head build off to show he is full of BS at this point based 100% off the numbers he is showing. MAYBE he can get better moisture resistant bows, but that's solving a problem that doesn't exist to any large degree... except hickory.... maybe. Tallow goes along ways.
170s and 160s fps... Those are rookie numbers... you gadda get those numbers up if that's top level performance for you.
Good averages though for a typical hunting bow.
-
well Sleek one bow shot 182 I think,, but that was a 60# bow with 520 grain arrow,, so that would put it in the 170's,,10 gpp,,,
-
This will be my fourth and last post here. Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading. I stand on every word on my website. I have never said I invented fire hardening. A "unique fire hardening method?" Yes. A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made? The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public. Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely. Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different? Absolutely Not! I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%. I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears. When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's! My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed. But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD. The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways. My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else. The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete. White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage. I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing. I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents. I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government. And you are trying to tell me about marketing? You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is. The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers. Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang. You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it. Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment. Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me. What Thad said. No need to reply. Not interested. Gone for good.
Wait hold on, I just read what you wrote again
You state that because we dont agree with you our reading comprehension is faulty? And how is that supposed to motivate me to want your information?
As for you feeling like we are stating you claimed to invent fire hardening... We aren't saying that. You are, by omission of precious details. You say you use heat to make bows better, buy your dvd to see how! Well duh, we got that figured out already, thank you Marc for putting forth effort to show how and why heat works, the science behind it, etc... Even if he didnt invent it himself, he gave us understanding of it. Your ad gives no understanding of your product. Bad advertising. If it were GOOD advertising, you would be in such a defensive posture right now would you?
You claim you are native and therefore we should value your opinion more? Hell, I am Scott Irish and Native, Does that mean I can drink, fight and shoot good? Your DNA doesnt make you good at something, if it did, I'd be a rocket surgeon as my grandfather worked on the Apollo project. Trail of tears had nothing to do with your DVD and your attempt to connect the two is disgraceful and disingenuous. You have lost any Intellectual argument when you try to win an argument with emotion rather than logic. So blatant and obvious at that. And I am supposed to think you are smart? Then you state you were following the ways of your people, not Marc's. That makes it YOURS and not Marc's? That gives you rights to it more than him? 21 % native... so proud. Hey, high five to your mom and dad for copulating, you had nothing to do with it, so why are you claiming it to establish your pathos? More like 21% naive.
3 years of methodology... and you say we aren't as good as you. I may have 3 years of bow building if you add every minute I spent making and studying it over the last 9 years. I'm not new, and dont toot my own horn, though I do try to get recognition for accomplishments.... by actually accomplishing them.
All I asked for validation of your claims was some some FPS. You respond with attacking an early first attempt I made at you tube? Seriously? Hell, I cant post images on here well, modern tech ain't my thing, yet because I'm deficant there, that means my ill reception of your whining and bad advertising is invalid? If that's the case, IF I HAD liked your advertising and sympathized with your plight here, it would be an equally invalid a point of view for the same reasons you state that it isn't valid. You boxed yourself in intellectually there. Aside from that, I'm not the guy who claims to have a master's degree in advertising, or who's responsibility it is to actually do the advertising. That's yours and you sucked. Plain and simple. Be glad I'm polite enough to be honest. That's rare these days. Appreciate me.
You state white wood bows can be built without the hand shock of osage. Pardner, my osage doesnt have handshock. That went away when Lebhuntfish, who is less experienced than I am, TAUGHT me through logical explanation ( see, I can learn from younger knowledge) how to time my limbs. I'm a better bowyer for it and appreciate him. Point is, if you have hand shock, you need to build better bows, not better heat treat. Heat wont fix handshock, and moisten doesnt cause it. I can build a green wood bow fresh cut that has no handshock, wont shoot fast, but wont have any shock. Your arguments give away you lack of ability and knowledge in bow making. I'm not nocking you for having trouble with certain things, just saying the obvious here. It's like putting finish on a bow, you want to present it, but only when you polish it do you discover the flaws in your work. Be grateful, improve, and move on.
There should be no difference in performance between osage and any suitable white wood, for a bow. If there is, you didnt do your job well.
Also, learn to present an argument better, you are very deficient in that skill set as well.
Well sleek, a bit blunt but yes i agree. I said that im going to save my questions but still this is true. Im excited to see if we will learn anything from the dvd or if its a dud. Maybe it will be good to explain the basics. You change your tactics for what your selling, even if its the same information. You could sell it saying it could add on to what we know, you could sell it as something new or as your view on the topic. But it needs to fit what your selling.
-
well Sleek one bow shot 182 I think,, but that was a 60# bow with 520 grain arrow,, so that would put it in the 170's,,10 gpp,,,
I have hit 200 fps with a 350 grain arrow from a 50 pound osage before. I had fun, but the number was average performance for a bow 10gpp would have been 170s. That bow was a super short bow also... A longer bow would have gotten me better performance. That was years ago also, I'd probably do better now.
-
153 replies, and 3017 views, and still going strong. Good thread.
-
Seems like they just wanted to be upset. I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there. Instead of giving information to support his claims he talked about his feelings and bragged about patents. Then he did the very thing his friend was supposedly hurt by and attacked peoples reading comprehension skills. Yet he himself doesn't seem to know what is on his website. What was the point of you bringing up your ancestry exactly? Was that suppose to validate your claims or were you trying to toot your own horn? Maybe you are writing an autobiography and you are trying to set that up? You dont actually have to answer any of those cause no one is really interested just put out your dvd already I am sure everyone is eager to know from the last true bowyer left on the planet how to make bows properly.
-
Seems like they just wanted to be upset. I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there. Instead of giving information to support his claims he talked about his feelings and bragged about patents. Then he did the very thing his friend was supposedly hurt by and attacked peoples reading comprehension skills. Yet he himself doesn't seem to know what is on his website. What was the point of you bringing up your ancestry exactly? Was that suppose to validate your claims or were you trying to toot your own horn? Maybe you are writing an autobiography and you are trying to set that up? You dont actually have to answer any of those cause no one is really interested just put out your dvd already I am sure everyone is eager to know from the last true bowyer left on the planet how to make bows properly.
Apparently whatever school he went to for his masters degree didnt teach him how to make a logical point or make a logical argument. I'd like to have him reply here a few more times to answer for himself. Maybe he could string together a coherent conversation, maybe not, but it would be interesting to watch him try.
I was all for him, you can look back at every comment I made, I never once said he has nothing and was optimistically sceptical about the dvd. Still kinda am. Billy wouldn't risk his reputation on nonsense, and as was said earlier by another forum member, Billy has been around a long time, he should know better. So, like I said, I'd like to hold off criticism of the dvd until I see it. This Shannon character however, isn't the best PR guy however, I wont hire him for promotion of my but of literature I'm working on. ( See what I did there? Shameless plug for my future wonderful self. )
-
Seems like they just wanted to be upset. I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there. Instead of giving information to support his claims he talked about his feelings and bragged about patents. Then he did the very thing his friend was supposedly hurt by and attacked peoples reading comprehension skills. Yet he himself doesn't seem to know what is on his website. What was the point of you bringing up your ancestry exactly? Was that suppose to validate your claims or were you trying to toot your own horn? Maybe you are writing an autobiography and you are trying to set that up? You dont actually have to answer any of those cause no one is really interested just put out your dvd already I am sure everyone is eager to know from the last true bowyer left on the planet how to make bows properly.
Apparently whatever school he went to for his masters degree didnt teach him how to make a logical point or make a logical argument. I'd like to have him reply here a few more times to answer for himself. Maybe he could string together a coherent conversation, maybe not, but it would be interesting to watch him try.
I was all for him, you can look back at every comment I made, I never once said he has nothing and was optimistically sceptical about the dvd. Still kinda am. Billy wouldn't risk his reputation on nonsense, and as was said earlier by another forum member, Billy has been around a long time, he should know better. So, like I said, I'd like to hold off criticism of the dvd until I see it. This Shannon character however, isn't the best PR guy however, I wont hire him for promotion of my but of literature I'm working on. ( See what I did there? Shameless plug for my future wonderful self. )
Most of us were not against him and were skeptical but open to be wrong the guy just wants everyone to clap his hands and go along with what he says. This is a forum the point of this is to discuss results, share work and pose questions to others. I honestly didn't and still dont believe he has anything but I am human I can be wrong and that was my stance from the beginning. Some of us asked for proof and all he had to do is either show something or refrain without crying about us even suggesting he back up a claim. Instead he chose to do the latter.
-
I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there.
Actually I'm quite impressed. I have made several dozen self bows and my several best performers shoot around 165 fps on a good day. And that is also the speed I get with beat-up fiberglass bows I buy used and abuse for comparison. I think the performance chart itself is a kind of proof that he knows how to make bows pretty well.
I seldom bother to apply finish on my bows. Most of them are not even sanded. Come to think of it, I have never properly heat treated any of them. I just use the heat treatment as a tillering aid to prevent hinges. I think it's about time for me to learn how to heat treat my bows properly.
Frankly anyone who can make wood self-bows that shoot 175 to 180 fps at will is an accomplished bowyer. I would listen to what he has to say.
-
I'd really like to know, in a quantifiable way, how much a problem moisture is for white wood bows. As Shannon keeps stating how big a problem it is, and he has solved it with his unique, not copying or inspired by Marc at all, heat treat method.You would assume he has some easily identified result of moisture inhibiting white wood bows, along with a direct comparison to his heat treat method.
So from the knowledge base here, I'd ask, who can identify moisture problems with their white wood bows? I only have made elm and black locust bows for white wood, never had a moisture problem from normal atmosphere conditions.
-
Let's discus the information on his site.
From this image you see there is nowhere enough information on his bows, and the arrows used, to glean any useful information or come to a conclusion. Is he being intentionally dishonest or just not familiar with the information needed to be provided to be useful to us? Either way, his site doesnt provide any information useful to back up any claim he has made.
No arrow weight info, no wood identification other than the one osage and one hickory bow, which white wood is supposed to outshoot the osage according to him, yet the other numbers dont show consistent performance above osage.
-
This will be my fourth and last post here. Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading. I stand on every word on my website. I have never said I invented fire hardening. A "unique fire hardening method?" Yes. A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made? The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public. Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely. Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different? Absolutely Not! I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%. I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears. When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's! My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed. But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD. The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways. My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else. The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete. White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage. I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing. I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents. I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government. And you are trying to tell me about marketing? You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is. The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers. Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang. You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it. Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment. Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me. What Thad said. No need to reply. Not interested. Gone for good.
Wait hold on, I just read what you wrote again
You state that because we dont agree with you our reading comprehension is faulty? And how is that supposed to motivate me to want your information?
As for you feeling like we are stating you claimed to invent fire hardening... We aren't saying that. You are, by omission of precious details. You say you use heat to make bows better, buy your dvd to see how! Well duh, we got that figured out already, thank you Marc for putting forth effort to show how and why heat works, the science behind it, etc... Even if he didnt invent it himself, he gave us understanding of it. Your ad gives no understanding of your product. Bad advertising. If it were GOOD advertising, you would be in such a defensive posture right now would you?
You claim you are native and therefore we should value your opinion more? Hell, I am Scott Irish and Native, Does that mean I can drink, fight and shoot good? Your DNA doesnt make you good at something, if it did, I'd be a rocket surgeon as my grandfather worked on the Apollo project. Trail of tears had nothing to do with your DVD and your attempt to connect the two is disgraceful and disingenuous. You have lost any Intellectual argument when you try to win an argument with emotion rather than logic. So blatant and obvious at that. And I am supposed to think you are smart? Then you state you were following the ways of your people, not Marc's. That makes it YOURS and not Marc's? That gives you rights to it more than him? 21 % native... so proud. Hey, high five to your mom and dad for copulating, you had nothing to do with it, so why are you claiming it to establish your pathos? More like 21% naive.
3 years of methodology... and you say we aren't as good as you. I may have 3 years of bow building if you add every minute I spent making and studying it over the last 9 years. I'm not new, and dont toot my own horn, though I do try to get recognition for accomplishments.... by actually accomplishing them.
All I asked for validation of your claims was some some FPS. You respond with attacking an early first attempt I made at you tube? Seriously? Hell, I cant post images on here well, modern tech ain't my thing, yet because I'm deficant there, that means my ill reception of your whining and bad advertising is invalid? If that's the case, IF I HAD liked your advertising and sympathized with your plight here, it would be an equally invalid a point of view for the same reasons you state that it isn't valid. You boxed yourself in intellectually there. Aside from that, I'm not the guy who claims to have a master's degree in advertising, or who's responsibility it is to actually do the advertising. That's yours and you sucked. Plain and simple. Be glad I'm polite enough to be honest. That's rare these days. Appreciate me.
You state white wood bows can be built without the hand shock of osage. Pardner, my osage doesnt have handshock. That went away when Lebhuntfish, who is less experienced than I am, TAUGHT me through logical explanation ( see, I can learn from younger knowledge) how to time my limbs. I'm a better bowyer for it and appreciate him. Point is, if you have hand shock, you need to build better bows, not better heat treat. Heat wont fix handshock, and moisten doesnt cause it. I can build a green wood bow fresh cut that has no handshock, wont shoot fast, but wont have any shock. Your arguments give away you lack of ability and knowledge in bow making. I'm not nocking you for having trouble with certain things, just saying the obvious here. It's like putting finish on a bow, you want to present it, but only when you polish it do you discover the flaws in your work. Be grateful, improve, and move on.
There should be no difference in performance between osage and any suitable white wood, for a bow. If there is, you didnt do your job well.
Also, learn to present an argument better, you are very deficient in that skill set as well.
Well sleek, a bit blunt but yes i agree. I said that im going to save my questions but still this is true. Im excited to see if we will learn anything from the dvd or if its a dud. Maybe it will be good to explain the basics. You change your tactics for what your selling, even if its the same information. You could sell it saying it could add on to what we know, you could sell it as something new or as your view on the topic. But it needs to fit what your selling.
My reply is as blunt as his claims, and I dont want the chance of being misunderstood.
Maybe he has something... other than a bad attitude and poor advertising skills, maybe if I use his method I can break out of fairly consistently 180s fps, and hit 190s often. I dont know. I just know he needs to let Billy do the talking... cause doesn't have that tallent.
-
I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there.
Actually I'm quite impressed. I have made several dozen self bows and my several best performers shoot around 165 fps on a good day. And that is also the speed I get with beat-up fiberglass bows I buy used and abuse for comparison. I think the performance chart itself is a kind of proof that he knows how to make bows pretty well.
I seldom bother to apply finish on my bows. Most of them are not even sanded. Come to think of it, I have never properly heat treated any of them. I just use the heat treatment as a tillering aid to prevent hinges. I think it's about time for me to learn how to heat treat my bows properly.
Frankly anyone who can make wood self-bows that shoot 175 to 180 fps at will is an accomplished bowyer. I would listen to what he has to say.
Anymore, I use heat for spot treatment of my bows to even out the tiller. It's a good technique.
He didnt say he can hit those numbers on every bow every time. I'd imagine he is posting his top performers and not mentioning the more sluggish bows.
-
What he could have done is compared his best white wood with his worst osage but i dont think that. Its not easy to get an only reflexed bow up there. But still, he could have chosen any bow to compare it to. Then he could have done the opposite, worst white wood with best osage. I would say thats out of the question because i would say with his claims that hes made, hes probably made a osage bow faster than that. That being said that says he wasnt comparing his best with his best, he was comparing his ok with his best (because he wouldnt show an ok bow when hes trying to sell it). But also its just a simple reflexed design. So it could have been unbiased because we know that white woods can outpreform osage when used well. Then theres arrow weight which we already know. String weight, tip overlays, areas that are unpredictable and need to be left thick, and the wood being unpredictable. I would say that that fills the fps gap. But lets say all parts that could be controlled are (which i hope they are) wood can just be unpredictable, not to say that the tiller could be off just a little bit (which can happen and is understandable).
Trying to be as un biased as i can.
-
I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there.
Actually I'm quite impressed. I have made several dozen self bows and my several best performers shoot around 165 fps on a good day. And that is also the speed I get with beat-up fiberglass bows I buy used and abuse for comparison. I think the performance chart itself is a kind of proof that he knows how to make bows pretty well.
I seldom bother to apply finish on my bows. Most of them are not even sanded. Come to think of it, I have never properly heat treated any of them. I just use the heat treatment as a tillering aid to prevent hinges. I think it's about time for me to learn how to heat treat my bows properly.
Frankly anyone who can make wood self-bows that shoot 175 to 180 fps at will is an accomplished bowyer. I would listen to what he has to say.
Those numbers are not 10gpp and those numbers are being done by the good folks here on PA and no dvd is required. His claim is his bows are better then everyone else’s. Big claim but numbers don’t show it.
-
Looks like someone is hurt that they were not hailed as conquering heroes by us ignorant savages.
I looked at the marketing. All I got was my spidey sense tingling and my bullshit meter pegged out past the redline. Marketing ain't nothing but the fine art of "alt facts". The classic Tom Waits song "Step Right Up" keeps playing in the back of my head. Google it or check it out on Youtube if you have never heard it! Seriously. Summarizes this whole thread.
-
How I imagine he feels right now
-
Perhaps it was as someone said, they were targeting the newbies that use YouTube for all their information and my going on there and posting what I did sort of poisoned the well so to speak and they are pissed....just guessing here.
-
:D
-
Are we still doing the technical peer review of a marketing brochure? I wonder how many of us here have made a self-bow that shoots 180 fps. More than a handful? Almost a hundred?
My "primitive bow" also implies using average materials locally available. Other than several cheapest osage orange staves purchased online, I only use what I can routinely cut myself or order from a local lumber mill.
Let's learn first how anyone can do it with a plain hickory stave. I will be satisfied if I can make one such bow out of ten attempts instead of one hundred.
-
a hickory self bow shooting 180 fps,, with less and 10 grain pound arrow,, is very do able,, heck probably shoot 200 with lighter arrow,,
170's with 10 gpp,, is a realistic expectation,, from a good bow,,
-
One thing is sure, those guys aren't hitting those numbers when actually shooting the bows. Not with those releases anyway. ;)
-
I don’t need to make a hickory bow that shoots 180 FPS I am happy with what I can do and as pat mentioned they aren’t doing those numbers either. They aren’t using 10 gpp except for one bow and they are using mechanical release. My bows can hit those numbers as well thanks to the many good folks here who share their information such as Marc and Steve. Steve a while back sent me his mass calculator through email and helped me. Which by the way Steve thank you very much it was a game changer for me. I bought TBB and have the four copies and the work you guys did and the others who contributed helped me so much. He backed his claim and I am happy to support him and the others.
-
There's plenty of thermal modification of wood data out there.
h ttps://www.baileywp.com/html/thermo_tech.html
-
Shannon, I hope you're still reading this. I want to say that I, for one, know exactly why you criticized their reading comprehension. These were my thoughts while reading this thread too. I think you've composed yourself better than many here and I genuinely wish you the best of luck with your dvd.
In this thread, he was accused of making claims he didn't make, and people claimed his site says things it doesn't say. Most people here ran with that. Now ya'll are a gang of nitpickers on a warpath. Put down your torches and wait until you actually know something about his method. Criticizing the advertising for not giving away enough information is ridiculous. Criticizing the performance of his bows is not a solid argument either. Maybe he is full of crap, but many of ya'll are going after him like he personally insulted you. What's wrong guys?
He never claimed to have invented or rediscovered heat treating or fire hardening. The man is telling you his method different. I'm skeptical of its efficacy too, but I see no reason to disbelieve him that it's different. I'm excited to see what it is.
-
His site does say all of those things.
-
This argumentative thread is an example of the dumb shit that has caused me to not post or visit much in the last couple years. It has solved nothing, proved nothing, and already wasted 10 minutes of my time reading some of it. It reminds me of all the ridiculous political arguments on Facebook.
I don’t visit this site to read arguments. Can we all skip the drama show.
Tattoo Dave
-
This argumentative thread is an example of the dumb shit that has caused me to not post or visit much in the last couple years. It has solved nothing, proved nothing, and already wasted 10 minutes of my time reading some of it. It reminds me of all the ridiculous political arguments on Facebook.
I don’t visit this site to read arguments. Can we all skip the drama show.
Tattoo Dave
A guy openly claims to make the best white wood bows period, puts down the whole board and you're surprised people are arguing? lol
-
This thread sure did take on a life of its own while I was gone. I am also skeptical but there is no way I can form any kind of opinion until I see the video. Being involved in flight shooting if he does have something new I am all ears. Even a slight improvement that returns an additional 5 fps has to be considered huge.
-
This argumentative thread is an example of the dumb shit that has caused me to not post or visit much in the last couple years. It has solved nothing, proved nothing, and already wasted 10 minutes of my time reading some of it. It reminds me of all the ridiculous political arguments on Facebook.
I don’t visit this site to read arguments. Can we all skip the drama show.
Tattoo Dave
All I did was tell him his advertising sucked. Never once did I say he had nothing important. He mocked me, made dishonest arguments, and I very clearly put him in his place. This is about his ego, not bows. I'd love to see his work. but his best is 180 fps, and he claims his best is THE best out there. Whatever, but still, maybe he is an average bow maker who actually figured a way to make his bows a little better. I'm listening....
-
This thread sure did take on a life of its own while I was gone. I am also skeptical but there is no way I can form any kind of opinion until I see the video. Being involved in flight shooting if he does have something new I am all ears. Even a slight improvement that returns an additional 5 fps has to be considered huge.
Do the listed results make you believe they are 5fps faster?
-
I don’t regret anything I said because it’s my right to say it. Never accused him of anything I can’t prove and anyone can see it on his site. I did not go after him just his claims. I agree that we should be respectful but if you say your bows are better then everyone else’s isn’t that putting other people down?
-
This argumentative thread is an example of the dumb shit that has caused me to not post or visit much in the last couple years. It has solved nothing, proved nothing, and already wasted 10 minutes of my time reading some of it. It reminds me of all the ridiculous political arguments on Facebook.
I don’t visit this site to read arguments. Can we all skip the drama show.
Tattoo Dave
All I did was tell him his advertising sucked. Never once did I say he had nothing important. He mocked me, made dishonest arguments, and I very clearly put him in his place. This is about his ego, not bows. I'd love to see his work. but his best is 180 fps, and he claims his best is THE best out there. Whatever, but still, maybe he is an average bow maker who actually figured a way to make his bows a little better. I'm listening....
Arguing, debating, discussing doesn’t matter, it happens. Weather you like it or not is also fine. If you don’t like it, switch threads or something bud. That shouldnt keep you from posting amigo. We’d love to hear from yah more!
Now maybe my views are different but I don’t other ppls critical comments and arguing whether it be about me or not bother me.
My view (and I know it’s not the same for everyone) is that is if i let nasty ppl and nasty words direct me and the way I feel then I’ve just given them some sort of influence over me and I’m not gonna let that happen to me. It’s my life and I control what I feel. Not others. So I simply don’t give others that power or influence by letting it bother me.
-
Even though all Fire Dancer Bows, pound per pound, clearly out perform every other bow, they were not built to be racing bows but instead designed to be somewhat short, durable, stable, smooth drawing and accurate hunting bows.
this if a direct quote from the site,,
when someone says their bows clearly out perfrom every other bow,, and then post numbers that do not reflect that,,
you are going to get some feed back about it,,
does the quote mean out perform every other bow in the world,,universe what,,
have the bows been setting world records or guys shooting them winning world shoots,, what???
its not unfair or negative to ask for some validation,,or if you gonna say that give some kind of proof,,
for me there is no validation I can see for that claim,, so I would be suspect of any other claims,, thats just my old guy reasoning,, once bit twice shy,,
you just make a bow once in a while for fun, then the claims are pretty meaningless,,but if you are professional and bow making is part of your livelyhood,,then the claims carry alot of weight, and I think some might not understand that,,its a big deal to the guys that have devoted their lives to making the best bows possible,, thats a big part of why this thread has been so well participated in,, )P(
I know Steve has made bows that set world records,,and made bows for others that have set world records,, when these guys claim their bows outperform every other bow, that would include bows like Steve makes and many other accomplished and proven bow makers,,as well,,
it feels disrespectful, to discount the accomplishments of others,,
-
Even though all Fire Dancer Bows, pound per pound, clearly out perform every other bow, they were not built to be racing bows but instead designed to be somewhat short, durable, stable, smooth drawing and accurate hunting bows.
this if a direct quote from the site,,
when someone says their bows clearly out perfrom every other bow,, and then post numbers that do not reflect that,,
you are going to get some feed back about it,,
does the quote mean out perform every other bow in the world,,universe what,,
have the bows been setting world records or guys shooting them winning world shoots,, what???
its not unfair or negative to ask for some validation,,or if you gonna say that give some kind of proof,,
for me there is no validation I can see for that claim,, so I would be suspect of any other claims,, thats just my old guy reasoning,, once bit twice shy,,
if you just make a bow once in a while for fun, then the claims are pretty meaningless,,but if you are professional and bow making is part of your livelyhood,,then the claims carry alot of weight, and I think some might not understand that,,its a big deal to the guys that have devoted their lives to making the best bows possible,, thats a big part of why this thread has been so well participated in,, )P(
Nicely put
-
I guess I see this little kerfuffle differently than Tattoo Dave and some others. I find none of this objectionable. These folks are making claims about their product, claiming its better than all the rest. They have every right to do that. It’s expected even. This forum, having maybe the highest concentration of World Class bowyers on the planet is going to be a pretty tough critic with regards to these claims. I personally have been entertained by this dust up. I am now more than curious to see the results and the critique that follows. This seems pretty civil thus far in my opinion. And interesting.
-
Even though all Fire Dancer Bows, pound per pound, clearly out perform every other bow, they were not built to be racing bows but instead designed to be somewhat short, durable, stable, smooth drawing and accurate hunting bows.
this if a direct quote from the site,,
when someone says their bows clearly out perfrom every other bow,, and then post numbers that do not reflect that,,
you are going to get some feed back about it,,
does the quote mean out perform every other bow in the world,,universe what,,
have the bows been setting world records or guys shooting them winning world shoots,, what???
its not unfair or negative to ask for some validation,,or if you gonna say that give some kind of proof,,
for me there is no validation I can see for that claim,, so I would be suspect of any other claims,, thats just my old guy reasoning,, once bit twice shy,,
you just make a bow once in a while for fun, then the claims are pretty meaningless,,but if you are professional and bow making is part of your livelyhood,,then the claims carry alot of weight, and I think some might not understand that,,its a big deal to the guys that have devoted their lives to making the best bows possible,, thats a big part of why this thread has been so well participated in,, )P(
I know Steve has made bows that set world records,,and made bows for others that have set world records,, when these guys claim their bows outperform every other bow, that would include bows like Steve makes and many other accomplished and proven bow makers,,as well,,
it feels disrespectful, to discount the accomplishments of others,,
I question your reading comprehension it never says my bows are better then all other bows. How dare you I have Native American blood running through my veins. The Native American part of me wrote that part but the other part of me doesn't understand where you got it from so you should buy my dvd.
All seriousness you hit the nail on the head.
-
This thread sure did take on a life of its own while I was gone. I am also skeptical but there is no way I can form any kind of opinion until I see the video. Being involved in flight shooting if he does have something new I am all ears. Even a slight improvement that returns an additional 5 fps has to be considered huge.
Do the listed results make you believe they are 5fps faster?
Not saying I believe it but it did peek my interest. He is showing simple designs that won't normally hit 180 fps. Very few self bows will hit that speed unless they are made pretty much perfectly. I have an occasional self bow to hit that speed but not common place unless I go to a little more aggressive design which I prefer simple reflex designs. I have been wondering for some time now if we could take the heat treat process a step further of if there is more we could learn about it.
-
I am a firm believer that bow making is just like any other technology, we stand on each others shoulders and keep reaching higher. You might take something from me and then improve on it, someone else will take that from you and improve on that. At some point gains become much harder and even small gains are much appreciated.
-
Badger, remember that it never gave us the weight of the arrow or the gpp
-
Badger, remember that it never gave us the weight of the arrow or the gpp
I thought he said 10 grains but not really sure now? that does make a substantial difference.
-
says all bows shot with 520 grain arrow
60# at 28 inches 183 fps with 520 arrow,,
that would put it in the 170s with 600 grain arrow,, right,,
,, so thats 8.7 gpp ?
there are alot of guys making self bows,, that will shoot 170's,, and 180's with a lighter arrow,,
-
bows were tested with the same 520 grain river cane arrow and shot with the aid of a shooting table to eliminate the human influence. All tests were documented on video with three participants and will be part of an upcoming video about making the fire hardened bow.
56” - Take down Big Horn Recurve-fiberglass 56 lbs at 28” draw 177 fps avg.66” - Sky Long Bow-Designed by Earl Hoyt, Jr. 60 lbs at 28” draw 178.5fps avg. Deflex Reflex Fiberglass64” - Osage Self Bow-1.5” Reflex 57 lbs at 28” draw 174.5 fps avg.64” - Raw Hickory Self Bow- 1.5 Deflex 59 lbs at 28” draw 162.4 fps avg.62” - Shannon’s Lightening Bolt-1” Reflex 60 lbs at 28” draw 182 fps avg. (Self Bow)62” - Shannon’s Smokin’ Sudbury-2” Reflex 54 lbs at 28” draw 177.6 fps avg (Self Bow)62” - Shannon’s Sinew Lightening Bolt-3” Reflex 52 lbs at 28” draw 175 fps avg.
Even though all Fire Dancer Bows, pound per pound, clearly out perform every other bow, they were not built to be racing bows but instead designed to be somewhat short, durable, stable, smooth drawing and accurate hunting bows.
-
^ All that, shows they are dishonest in their conclusion, or simply dont know what they are talking about. Never mind that they stated heat will get rid of hand shock.
-
One simple way to test with one 520 grain arrow is to pull the bows to 52 pounds only, even though that might not be optimal for each bow. That's what I sometimes do, in my case just with one 400 grain arrow, because most of my bows are made for 40 pound target draw weight.
We need to distinguish between the production bows on sale from the bows mad for record breaking. I rarely see anyone guarantying their bows FPS. In the hands of experienced shooters like Badger, their bows might perform much better.
Let's just remember that the target audience of the marketing is not the professional bowyers here but just regular primitive bow enthusiasts. We really don't want to discourage any sincere bow makers for their hyperbole. We need to remember how dogmatic the authors of old archery books were. We are not being forced to be deceived. There is no need for us to go out of our way to disparage fellow bowyers just for their exaggeration.
-
62” - Shannon’s Sinew Lightening Bolt-3” Reflex 52 lbs at 28” draw 175 fps avg.
This is the only example of 10 gpp and its average performance
64” - Raw Hickory Self Bow- 1.5 Deflex 59 lbs at 28” draw 162.4 fps avg.
Then there is this little gem. That's not anything to brag about. darn near 60 pound bow, hitting 162 fps with arrow 80 grains too light.
With these numbers, I am to believe these are the best bows out there, and this is better than osage? How fast are their bows without the fire treatment?
Not to mention, that's with a shooting machine. Gosh
...
Now, again, they may not know how to make a fast bow, but if they can take a slow bow and make it average, I'm still interested in how they do it.
-
sleek, I think the raw hickory bow means that one is not heat treated.
-
sleek, I think the raw hickory bow means that one is not heat treated.
You may have a point there
-
selling a product based on exaggeration,, and discounting what others have done and are doing,,,, does not seem ok to me,,it seems like like a bad reflection on the guys doing it right,,
pulling a bow designed for 28 inch draw, to 25 inch, to achieve the 52 # draw weight,, would drasticlly reduce the performance,,
it would probably shoot in the 160's maybe,,wouldnt be a fair test of the bow,, shooting it with a 600 grain arrow would give a good idea of that the bow is doing,, probably 175ish,, respectable,,
in My opinion, which really doent matter to anyone but me,, the bows they are making seem very well made, and if durable are a great representation of what a wood bow can do,, and no need to exaggerate,, or misrepresent the product by saying it out perfroms any other bow,, as they do not,,
and since no one unbiased has tested the bows, the performance is questionable to me,,
send the best bow to a writer,,or another archer,, and let them test it, in a realistic setting and see how it does,,
send one to Marc or Steve,,and let them test it,,they are both honorable and would post honest results,,
-
selling a product based on exaggeration,, and discounting what others have done and are doing,,,, does not seem ok to me,,it seems like like a bad reflection on the guys doing it right,,
pulling a bow designed for 28 inch draw, to 25 inch, to achieve the 52 # draw weight,, would drasticlly reduce the performance,,
it would probably shoot in the 160's maybe,,wouldnt be a fair test of the bow,, shooting it with a 600 grain arrow would give a good idea of that the bow is doing,, probably 175ish,, respectable,,
in My opinion, which really doent matter to anyone but me,, the bows they are making seem very well made, and if durable are a great representation of what a wood bow can do,, and no need to exaggerate,, or misrepresent the product by saying it out perfroms any other bow,, as they do not,,
and since no one unbiased has tested the bows, the performance is questionable to me,,
send the best bow to a writer,,or another archer,, and let them test it, in a realistic setting and see how it does,,
send one to Marc or Steve,,and let them test it,,they are both honorable and would post honest results,,
Under drawn bows under perform for their draw weight.
Somehow, I dont think they will be sending Marc a bow to test lol
-
well I thought that would be a good test,, my bad,, :NN (-S
-
Are these the numbers they’re claiming? I get numbers like that without heat treating.... Am I misunderstanding the claim of performance?
-
well I thought that would be a good test,, my bad,, :NN (-S
Lol, if you do it all the time, those numbers can create a base line for you to reference, but when you under draw, you rob yourself of some of the power stroke.
-
They have made it very clear that they are not interested in proving anything. They want people to buy the dvd. But seems like if they were open to proving there bows they could give it to Steve. I am sure Steve will be an unbiased party or at least as much as humanly possible.
-
This argumentative thread is an example of the dumb shit that has caused me to not post or visit much in the last couple years. It has solved nothing, proved nothing, and already wasted 10 minutes of my time reading some of it. It reminds me of all the ridiculous political arguments on Facebook.
I don’t visit this site to read arguments. Can we all skip the drama show.
Tattoo Dave
All I did was tell him his advertising sucked. Never once did I say he had nothing important. He mocked me, made dishonest arguments, and I very clearly put him in his place. This is about his ego, not bows. I'd love to see his work. but his best is 180 fps, and he claims his best is THE best out there. Whatever, but still, maybe he is an average bow maker who actually figured a way to make his bows a little better. I'm listening....
Arguing, debating, discussing doesn’t matter, it happens. Weather you like it or not is also fine. If you don’t like it, switch threads or something bud. That shouldnt keep you from posting amigo. We’d love to hear from yah more!
Now maybe my views are different but I don’t other ppls critical comments and arguing whether it be about me or not bother me.
My view (and I know it’s not the same for everyone) is that is if i let nasty ppl and nasty words direct me and the way I feel then I’ve just given them some sort of influence over me and I’m not gonna let that happen to me. It’s my life and I control what I feel. Not others. So I simply don’t give others that power or influence by letting it bother me.
Bryce, I guess that was my point exactly. If folks don’t like his claims weather they’re bull shit claims or not, no one has to read his claims, statements, and for sure don’t need to buy his bows or dvd, and the admins for sure don’t need to let this carry on for 14 pages of bickering. Pat M, I’m definitely not surprised by the arguments, again that was my point. Haven’t been here in a while and here’s another argument. This thread was not started by the guy who is making all those claims and statements. Don’t get me wrong, I’m definitely Not trying to defend him. Anyway...
Tattoo Dave
-
quite a bit of information on bow performance ,,its a good read,, (SH)
-
This argumentative thread is an example of the dumb shit that has caused me to not post or visit much in the last couple years. It has solved nothing, proved nothing, and already wasted 10 minutes of my time reading some of it. It reminds me of all the ridiculous political arguments on Facebook.
I don’t visit this site to read arguments. Can we all skip the drama show.
Tattoo Dave
All I did was tell him his advertising sucked. Never once did I say he had nothing important. He mocked me, made dishonest arguments, and I very clearly put him in his place. This is about his ego, not bows. I'd love to see his work. but his best is 180 fps, and he claims his best is THE best out there. Whatever, but still, maybe he is an average bow maker who actually figured a way to make his bows a little better. I'm listening....
Arguing, debating, discussing doesn’t matter, it happens. Weather you like it or not is also fine. If you don’t like it, switch threads or something bud. That shouldnt keep you from posting amigo. We’d love to hear from yah more!
Now maybe my views are different but I don’t other ppls critical comments and arguing whether it be about me or not bother me.
My view (and I know it’s not the same for everyone) is that is if i let nasty ppl and nasty words direct me and the way I feel then I’ve just given them some sort of influence over me and I’m not gonna let that happen to me. It’s my life and I control what I feel. Not others. So I simply don’t give others that power or influence by letting it bother me.
Bryce, I guess that was my point exactly. If folks don’t like his claims weather they’re bull shit claims or not, no one has to read his claims, statements, and for sure don’t need to buy his bows or dvd, and the admins for sure don’t need to let this carry on for 14 pages of bickering. Pat M, I’m definitely not surprised by the arguments, again that was my point. Haven’t been here in a while and here’s another argument. This thread was not started by the guy who is making all those claims and statements. Don’t get me wrong, I’m definitely Not trying to defend him. Anyway...
Tattoo Dave
Ok I see where you’re coming from.
-
selling a product based on exaggeration,, and discounting what others have done and are doing,,,, does not seem ok to me,,it seems like like a bad reflection on the guys doing it right,,
pulling a bow designed for 28 inch draw, to 25 inch, to achieve the 52 # draw weight,, would drasticlly reduce the performance,,
it would probably shoot in the 160's maybe,,wouldnt be a fair test of the bow,, shooting it with a 600 grain arrow would give a good idea of that the bow is doing,, probably 175ish,, respectable,,
in My opinion, which really doent matter to anyone but me,, the bows they are making seem very well made, and if durable are a great representation of what a wood bow can do,, and no need to exaggerate,, or misrepresent the product by saying it out perfroms any other bow,, as they do not,,
and since no one unbiased has tested the bows, the performance is questionable to me,,
send the best bow to a writer,,or another archer,, and let them test it, in a realistic setting and see how it does,,
send one to Marc or Steve,,and let them test it,,they are both honorable and would post honest results,,
Under drawn bows under perform for their draw weight.
Somehow, I dont think they will be sending Marc a bow to test lol
And I wouldn't want them to. Steve on the other hand is a perfect candidate for unbiased testing
-
selling a product based on exaggeration,, and discounting what others have done and are doing,,,, does not seem ok to me,,it seems like like a bad reflection on the guys doing it right,,
pulling a bow designed for 28 inch draw, to 25 inch, to achieve the 52 # draw weight,, would drasticlly reduce the performance,,
it would probably shoot in the 160's maybe,,wouldnt be a fair test of the bow,, shooting it with a 600 grain arrow would give a good idea of that the bow is doing,, probably 175ish,, respectable,,
in My opinion, which really doent matter to anyone but me,, the bows they are making seem very well made, and if durable are a great representation of what a wood bow can do,, and no need to exaggerate,, or misrepresent the product by saying it out perfroms any other bow,, as they do not,,
and since no one unbiased has tested the bows, the performance is questionable to me,,
send the best bow to a writer,,or another archer,, and let them test it, in a realistic setting and see how it does,,
send one to Marc or Steve,,and let them test it,,they are both honorable and would post honest results,,
Under drawn bows under perform for their draw weight.
Somehow, I dont think they will be sending Marc a bow to test lol
And I wouldn't want them to. Steve on the other hand is a perfect candidate for unbiased testing
I'm not surprised, and I agree, Steve is the man for the job.
By the way Marc, what's been your fastest bow to date?
-
Selfbow is in the low 190's. To make sure I didn't overdraw I would only use 28" arrows and the arrows were weighed at 10 GPP. The release was a flight style release
-
I was going through some of the old threads/files I had saved from the old, now defunct, message board and found this one Elm recurve I had posted about. It was 64" N to N and pulled 58# @ 28". I tested this bow with a 540 grain arrow and had an average of 196 fps with a high of 199 fps, tested with a FF string. For some reason I lost the pictures that goes with the file but this bow here was very similar
-
I notice there is no deflex, are the defex designs as fast as the bow you are showing here ,, just curious,,
-
I remember that bow for Dano. There was a shorter HHB of similar design that also reached similar speed.
-
Instead of testing his bows I would much rather build two bows from a hickory board and see how they compare to one another. One using his treatment and one using the standard mark St Louis treatment. I said many years ago that marks heat treatment even though he freely admits he didn't invent it, he did however popularize it and somewhat perfect it. But His method has been one of the biggest advances in bow making during my generation of building. What I am hoping for is a slight improvement on that method.
-
I remember that bow for Dano. There was a shorter HHB of similar design that also reached similar speed.
The bow pictured was the bow for Dano, I never got around to testing that one for speed although it was quite similar so probably had similar speed. The HHB bow wasn't shorter, it just had a shorter draw but yes it did reach into the 190's
-
Each stave undergoes my custom proprietary fire hardening which transforms the natural raw wood into a wood that is very dense, has greater compression strength, and permanently hydrophobic rendering it free from its normal moisture problems. This makes a powerful bow that can tolerate long string times and will perform with the best of the best, even out performing many fiberglass bows for flat shooting and great penetration.
That's from his website, and per the verbiage, he is very possessive of his custom Proprietary fire hardening technique. Given what he wrote, and the low performance he is getting I hope people can understand why this thread seems so hostile towards the guy.
Custom Proprietary fire hardening that he figured out after the art was LOST from his native ancestors, so he must know what he is talking about. If you dont believe him you are the problem.
Yeah, that will raise some eyebrows
-
I remember that bow for Dano. There was a shorter HHB of similar design that also reached similar speed.
The bow pictured was the bow for Dano, I never got around to testing that one for speed although it was quite similar so probably had similar speed. The HHB bow wasn't shorter, it just had a shorter draw but yes it did reach into the 190's
Thanks for posting that Marc. Did you keep any record on its width and frontal profile?
-
White lightening shot over 190 fps... Marc knows what he's talking about.
-
Thanks Bob. What's the width, length, and draw weight on that one? It looks like a simple pyramid with this recurved levers on it?
-
Marc can fill you in...it was likely one of his first heat treated bows...these might help too...
-
Actually Bob that was the first one I sent to you and it was made out of Elm. It was 61" N to N with 1 7/8" wide limbs. I never really got a good reading with my chrono with that bow.
This is the White Lightning that hit mid 190's on a 27" draw
-
thats a nice one,,, ;D
-
Actually Bob that was the first one I sent to you and it was made out of Elm. It was 61" N to N with 1 7/8" wide limbs. I never really got a good reading with my chrono with that bow.
This is the White Lightning that hit mid 190's on a 27" draw
Marc...all I know is that my wife understands that I shoot instinctively, and that it means my brain kinda takes over during the shot...she says that I really need to stick to slower bows for my brain to keep up...? I shoot my 165-175 fps bows best... she may be right...
:-[
White Lightning is one to be proud of and is faster than any other wood bow I have ever seen or shot... :OK
-
a little late to the discussion, but I did not see anyone offer Shannon so much as a welcome to the board.
maybe there is a bit of hyperbole in his own online postings, or maybe not.....so what?
What I did see here at PA was Shannon's willingness to sign up here and enter a discussion about his work without being overly defensive....
......and leave after not feeling to welcomed by the community as a whole.
-
I was going to welcome him but I realized that it might be taken in a wrong way (as sarcastic or snarky) so i didn't. I probably should have but i don't know. we cant go back. I wish I could. that comment might have changed the discussion with shannon but we cant know. :-\
-
He didnt join to become part of this group, he didnt come to be welcomed but to stir up crap and duke it out with anyone who dared disagree with him. His every post showed that.
-
I think it's pretty clear he considered himself above the rabble on here or he might have signed up years ago.
-
He didnt join to become part of this group, he didnt come to be welcomed but to stir up crap and duke it out with anyone who dared disagree with him. His every post showed that.
That was more the other guy.
-
a little late to the discussion, but I did not see anyone offer Shannon so much as a welcome to the board.
maybe there is a bit of hyperbole in his own online postings, or maybe not.....so what?
What I did see here at PA was Shannon's willingness to sign up here and enter a discussion about his work without being overly defensive....
......and leave after not feeling to welcomed by the community as a whole.
What I saw was that he signed up merely to defend himself and his process and I don't see anything wrong with that. The fact that he left the way he did says another thing
-
I dont agree with him and I honestly dont believe he has anything. Everything about what he said and the way he left makes me believe that even more. However I wish him the best and I hope he learns that people are gonna call you out on things they are passionate about.
-
I agree with both points Marc. Defending yourself is expected, but saying “you guys suck and I’m going home” is weak. It’s a tell in my mind. I believe they know their argument won’t stand up to scrutiny. If I’m wrong, I welcome them to prove me wrong.
-
i don't know. I have two voices in my head, My people pleaser one telling me to let it go and be kind and open, my logical side is saying to fight for my claims and to defend what i know. its hard to balance the two.
-
I am starting to wonder if the video will actually be produced now.
-
when is it supposed to be?
-
I would think they are invested in it by now. I’m where you are Steve. If what they have is an improvement on the margins, that’s pretty good. I just get the feelz that they won’t be able to live up to the claims. They may still sell some DVD’s, though they missed the mark with this fairly influential group. Come back and defend yourselves. I would.
-
I wonder if hes been reading this as a guest so we don't know if hes back on?
-
I wonder if hes been reading this as a guest so we don't know if hes back on?
You can rest assured that some communication is going on or they wouldn't have showed up on the thread in the first place.
Likely smoke signals are being used.
-
Now THAT, was funny.
-
Even a decent video summary of the current state of our knowledge in heat treating bows would be quite useful, especially if the method is applied to white wood easily available. I would not mind if they just apply a lot of bear fat and burn them off in the process for good mojo and claim that doing so really helps. But at least they need to produce white wood self-bows that shoot 175 FPS with 10 GPP arrows. Good luck.
-
Maybe re editing the video a bit.... :)
-
Ya'll are really harping on the fact that he brought up his ancestry. You must be reading his posts in the voice of a cartoonish villain. Extend just a smidge of good will, and it becomes clear that he wasn't going on about the amazing super powers he's given by the native blood coursing through his veins. He was talking about the source/inspiration for his knowledge, and was expressing the respect he had for the knowledge of the past.
He was civil and respectful and I see no indication that he was coming here to stir up trouble.
If, hypothetically, someone *did* come up with an amazing new heat treating method, I would not expect them to start making the best bows ever. As you all know, an enormous amount of skill and knowledge goes in to making a fast bow. Much more than any heat treatment. To suggest that if someone with a better heat treating method would be automatically making amazing bows is to shit on the knowledge of people like Marc St. Louis. I wouldn't expect to start seeing the best bows ever until this new method got in to the hands of someone like Marc.
Again, I'm super skeptical too. If it's a scam, I will definitely be among the annoyed. He makes big claims. But he's also been good and civil and unfairly jumped on. I don't know enough about his method to say it's bs, and neither do you. Express your skepticism and move on. I don't understand why this has become a witch hunt.
-
Ya'll are really harping on the fact that he brought up his ancestry. You must be reading his posts in the voice of a cartoonish villain. Extend just a smidge of good will, and it becomes clear that he wasn't going on about the amazing super powers he's given by the native blood coursing through his veins. He was talking about the source/inspiration for his knowledge, and was expressing the respect he had for the knowledge of the past.
He was civil and respectful and I see no indication that he was coming here to stir up trouble.
If, hypothetically, someone *did* come up with an amazing new heat treating method, I would not expect them to start making the best bows ever. As you all know, an enormous amount of skill and knowledge goes in to making a fast bow. Much more than any heat treatment. To suggest that if someone with a better heat treating method would be automatically making amazing bows is to shit on the knowledge of people like Marc St. Louis. I wouldn't expect to start seeing the best bows ever until this new method got in to the hands of someone like Marc.
Again, I'm super skeptical too. If it's a scam, I will definitely be among the annoyed. He makes big claims. But he's also been good and civil and unfairly jumped on. I don't know enough about his method to say it's bs, and neither do you. Express your skepticism and move on. I don't understand why this has become a witch hunt.
The thing is he was willing to talk about anything and everything except the one thing we were asking about. Inspiration for doing something and the evidence you actually did that thing or two different topics. We all were discussing his claims and he came along maybe not to stir up trouble but to try to get us to go along with what he was saying without providing anything of value. Also lied about the contents of his site and got called out for it. I don’t hate the man and I have nothing against him personally (I don’t know him) but the way he was dodging the questions seems to tell us everything we need to know. The burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim.
-
I wouldn’t expect to instantly see the best bows ever either, but he does keep saying that they are. We’re not the ones setting impossible standards. This would be a very different conversation without these kinds of bold claims. Claims and information don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. People do, but not when they say they are doing the best work around. That kind of talk has to be earned or proven if you don’t wanna raise some dust
-
The thing is he was willing to talk about anything and everything except the one thing we were asking about. Inspiration for doing something and the evidence you actually did that thing or two different topics. We all were discussing his claims and he came along maybe not to stir up trouble but to try to get us to go along with what he was saying without providing anything of value. Also lied about the contents of his site and got called out for it. I don’t hate the man and I have nothing against him personally (I don’t know him) but the way he was dodging the questions seems to tell us everything we need to know. The burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim.
I wish he would tell us, but he's avoiding giving away the information he's trying to sell. I'm perplexed by this expectation that he would freely spill the goods. Would be pretty stupid business. I also wish to see some good science on his method of heat treating vs others, as many were asking for. I'm guessing it just doesn't exist to show at the moment. Good science on bows is hard.
He did not lie about the contents of his site. He was accused of saying that he rediscovered fire hardening. He denied ever saying that. Then a quote from his website was thrown at him, "But what if there was a technique that would make whitewood bows immune to moisture? What if this technique was forgotten after archery was supplanted by the modern firearm? And what if, centuries later, this technique was rediscovered by a modern primitive archer with an innate curiosity of ancient ways? That’s what led to experimenting with fire-hardening that gave birth to Fire Dancer Bows"
People here fixated on the fact that the word "forgotten" is in that quote. But that quote is not talking about heat treating. It is talking about his specific method of heat treating. Saying that his specific method was forgotten is not saying that heat treating was forgotten. This is where reading comprehension starts to be criticized.
I wouldn’t expect to instantly see the best bows ever either, but he does keep saying that they are. We’re not the ones setting impossible standards. This would be a very different conversation without these kinds of bold claims. Claims and information don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. People do, but not when they say they are doing the best work around. That kind of talk has to be earned or proven if you don’t wanna raise some dust
Firstly, I agree that his claims are very hyperbolic, and I wish they weren't. But it's worth noting that he also says his bows weren't built to be speed demons. He didn't claim to have the fastest bows.
-
I think Halfbows right. we arnt going to get anyghing from this thread but more criticizm. as much as I would like to say what I think is wrong about his methods (or as much as I know), Its just given us more questions. lets try to answer them in other threads first then we work forward to other questions till we figure something out.
-
"Firstly, I agree that his claims are very hyperbolic, and I wish they weren't. But it's worth noting that he also says his bows weren't built to be speed demons. He didn't claim to have the fastest bows."
Believe he did make that claim. Something to the effect of he will let you take an Osage bow, and spot you five pounds, and out shoot you. That seems to me to be a pretty clear claim as to the speed advantage his bows allegedly posses.
-
The thing is he was willing to talk about anything and everything except the one thing we were asking about. Inspiration for doing something and the evidence you actually did that thing or two different topics. We all were discussing his claims and he came along maybe not to stir up trouble but to try to get us to go along with what he was saying without providing anything of value. Also lied about the contents of his site and got called out for it. I don’t hate the man and I have nothing against him personally (I don’t know him) but the way he was dodging the questions seems to tell us everything we need to know. The burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim.
I wish he would tell us, but he's avoiding giving away the information he's trying to sell. I'm perplexed by this expectation that he would freely spill the goods. Would be pretty stupid business. I also wish to see some good science on his method of heat treating vs others, as many were asking for. I'm guessing it just doesn't exist to show at the moment. Good science on bows is hard.
He did not lie about the contents of his site. He was accused of saying that he rediscovered fire hardening. He denied ever saying that. Then a quote from his website was thrown at him, "But what if there was a technique that would make whitewood bows immune to moisture? What if this technique was forgotten after archery was supplanted by the modern firearm? And what if, centuries later, this technique was rediscovered by a modern primitive archer with an innate curiosity of ancient ways? That’s what led to experimenting with fire-hardening that gave birth to Fire Dancer Bows"
People here fixated on the fact that the word "forgotten" is in that quote. But that quote is not talking about heat treating. It is talking about his specific method of heat treating. Saying that his specific method was forgotten is not saying that heat treating was forgotten. This is where reading comprehension starts to be criticized.
I wouldn’t expect to instantly see the best bows ever either, but he does keep saying that they are. We’re not the ones setting impossible standards. This would be a very different conversation without these kinds of bold claims. Claims and information don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. People do, but not when they say they are doing the best work around. That kind of talk has to be earned or proven if you don’t wanna raise some dust
Firstly, I agree that his claims are very hyperbolic, and I wish they weren't. But it's worth noting that he also says his bows weren't built to be speed demons. He didn't claim to have the fastest bows.
I wasn't asking him to spill the goods, just for proof that there were any. I wanted before and after performance. But, instead I got lectured on the trail of tears. That left me to go to his site and try and figure out how I can benefit from what he is selling. Seems to be a few points. Water resistant, lower mass, no handshock, faster bows.
None of that offers any proof of those claims. I didnt think it unreasonable to ask for before and after stats. That wouldn't give anything they were selling away, and in fact, should have been part of their marketing. Instead, he puckered up and walked out.
-
"Firstly, I agree that his claims are very hyperbolic, and I wish they weren't. But it's worth noting that he also says his bows weren't built to be speed demons. He didn't claim to have the fastest bows."
Believe he did make that claim. Something to the effect of he will let you take an Osage bow, and spot you five pounds, and out shoot you. That seems to me to be a pretty clear claim as to the speed advantage his bows allegedly posses.
I'd take him up on that, Hell, I'd spot HIM those 5 pounds and still smoke him, with one of my short bows no less, with 10GPP.
-
I don’t think they will be interested in that at all. That is the reason for my skepticism. If these claims are true, and you can back them up, you would enthusiastically engage folks on this forum for the instant credibility. That would vault your DVD sales dramatically. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither, pound on the table and yell like hell.
-
I don’t think they will be interested in that at all. That is the reason for my skepticism. If these claims are true, and you can back them up, you would enthusiastically engage folks on this forum for the instant credibility. That would vault your DVD sales dramatically. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither, pound on the table and yell like hell.
EXACTLY
That's why I said his advertising was awful. Can judge the content until I see it. When was this DVD supposed to come out? I'm kinda looking forward to seeing it.
-
I don’t think they will be interested in that at all. That is the reason for my skepticism. If these claims are true, and you can back them up, you would enthusiastically engage folks on this forum for the instant credibility. That would vault your DVD sales dramatically. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither, pound on the table and yell like hell.
Ha! yea! wish he would actually try to tell us the facts.
-
Naturally I have some questions about this whole thing. He claims he never got the idea from me (directly?) and that is entirely possible but that doesn't mean he didn't get it from someone who got it from someone else and so on back to my original research. I have always been quite free with what I have done on heat-treating with the bowyer community. His videos clearly show a process that, to me, would most certainly NOT have been used by his ancestors, at least it would take one heck of a lot of evidence to convince me otherwise.
-
White lightening :) Nice bow, one glance tells me she is a screamer :)
This thread is interesting if only to see the usual's acting in their usual manner...
Halfbow's comments reflect my thoughts on all this and are written more eloquently than I could manage.
i'll buy a copy and see for myself.
-
Aren't you a usual acting in your usual manner? ;)
-
Well said Pat. A little self reflection...
-
Does anyone know when his dvd will be out? Was there any announcement on it?
-
White lightening :) Nice bow, one glance tells me she is a screamer :)
This thread is interesting if only to see the usual's acting in their usual manner...
Halfbow's comments reflect my thoughts on all this and are written more eloquently than I could manage.
i'll buy a copy and see for myself.
Were you a member here before?
The neat thing about these public forums is the social interaction. I'd appreciate being called out and challenged for claims, and I have been in the past. I didnt argue, I put forward what I was asked. On a Facebook group I'm on, that wasn't good enough and I got my feelings a little hurt I will be honest, especially because I valued the guys opinion who was bashing me, but I didnt take my ball and go home. I guess it will just take a bit more proof to solidify my points in some folks minds.... or maybe I'm hardheaded lol.
Cant be tinder skinned and loud mouthed all at the same time.
-
You should be able to recognize who bownarra is. He joins and then quits and takes his ball home on the regular.
-
You should be able to recognize who bownarra is. He joins and then quits and takes his ball home on the regular.
I dont recognize him. Last time I recall problems with members, well, I dont wanna name anyone, incase they got themselves figured out, I'd hate to bring up old issues. It's been a long time though.
If I have talked with him before under another name I have no clue. Which kinda sucks, cause I'd like to know who I'm talking to. Kinda unfair to us really to do that.
-
Techniques, and claims that are credible should be able to stand on their own when faced with scrutiny and criticism. Now with that said, has this topic played out? Yes and is about 16 pages too long. I think it’s time to move on. There is know doubt they’re still reading this and the other heat treating threads that have been started. Let’s let it die.
Thank you
-
Techniques, and claims that are credible should be able to stand on their own when faced with scrutiny and criticism. Now with that said, has this topic played out? Yes and is about 16 pages too long. I think it’s time to move on. There is know doubt they’re still reading this and the other heat treating threads that have been started. Let’s let it die.
Thank you
But let's keep the other threads going, they are getting interesting.
-
Techniques, and claims that are credible should be able to stand on their own when faced with scrutiny and criticism. Now with that said, has this topic played out? Yes and is about 16 pages too long. I think it’s time to move on. There is know doubt they’re still reading this and the other heat treating threads that have been started. Let’s let it die.
Thank you
But let's keep the other threads going, they are getting interesting.
:OK
-
You should be able to recognize who bownarra is. He joins and then quits and takes his ball home on the regular.
[/quote
Your comments speak for you and your state of mind.....you got anything intelligent to say?
Sleek I wasn't talking about you in particular. I was talking in general just the way my comment was written.
I have no problem with anybody on here (I don't know any of you!) Why do people seem to want to pick a fight......honestly just grow up. What is wrong with disagreeing with somebody and keeping a civil tongue in your head at the same time....
-
You just tried to pick a fight by being insulting.
I was merely observing your previous behavior of running off in a huff which could use some growing up all by itself.
-
Is this dvd out yet or ready for download. I am intrigued.
-
It's alive... :)
-
DVD released today.
-
Whelp, anyone in line to get theirs?
-
You can download it if you can't wait.
-
Has anyone watched it yet?
-
Out of curiosity I purchased the streaming option moments ago but haven’t figured out how access it yet.
-
I bought the streaming version yesterday and watched it. Clewis, when you log on to your account page, you will see a green bar across the top of the web page that says "watch the video" or something to that effect, with an arrow that points to the right. Click that arrow, and you will be taken to a page where you can stream the vid. I thought that was a peculiar way to set things up. Not at all intuitive.
As far as the video goes, fire hardening, as they portray it, does seem to differ from heat treating as it is commonly done. I would think of them on a continuum, with using raw, unheated wood at one extreme and fire hardening at the other, with conventional heat treating somewhere in the middle. The basic idea is you create a bed of coals you can suspend the bow you want to fire harden over, and suspend the bow there (clamped to a form if desired, with the belly facing the coals) for a few hours. Obviously the wood is further from the heat source than if one were to heat treat with a heat gun. The length of time you leave the bow there depends on a range of variables, among them how much heat the coals are putting off, wind, air temperature and humidity, etc. The goal is to 'cook' the wood at a relatively low temperature (~270 degrees Fahrenheit) slowly for an extended period of time.
It seems that a consequence of fire hardening is that the physical/chemical changes that happen in the wood go deeper than with heat treating, and in some cases all the way through, from belly to back. Fire hardening does result in a color change, but not as much as many folks end up with who heat treat. The bow becomes much more resistant to taking on moisture, and supposedly retains its performance when at higher moisture contents than it would otherwise. The producers claim only marginal benefits for osage, and significant benefits for white woods, particularly hickory.
My main criticism of the video is that when the producers presented data comparing the FPS that fire-hardened bows achieved vs raw wood bows and a couple fiberglass bows, they compared bows with various draw weights at various draw lengths using a single 520 grain arrow, so the comparisons were not always useful. Looking at their setup, it was not at all clear to me that they had a method to prevent them from over- or under-drawing bows while testing, which adds a means for them to bias results in favor of fire-hardened bows by 'accidentally' overdrawing them while shooting through the chronograph. With those limitations in mind it is hard to say much about the FPS numbers they present.
In my opinion, the producers are definitely onto something useful, and while there is plenty of room for more investigation I think their original claim that fire hardening is meaningfully different from heat treating, as it is commonly done, is valid. I plan on finding a place where I can make a fire pit (cannot do it where I am currently living) and experiment with this once it warms up a bit.
-
So really nothing new. Guys have been using much longer slower heat treats on here for almost 20 years. They've done it over beds of coals and kitchen stoves etc. Heat is heat.
-
Yes sir. I heat treated a Hackberry bow over coals some years ago. Great little bow that took no set. The bed was only big enough to do one limb at a time. I dont see anything really....new or revelatory. If in fact that is all there is. I have not watched it.
-
For many years people just went by "it works" and played around with cook times and settled on what worked best for them. The science of it was not often discussed but papers referring to what potentially goes on were frequently linked to.
I posted this or a similar article a number of times in the past. This shows the chemical changes and explains water resistance. I guess if you want all the info in one place, spend away.
ttp://ww w.coford.ie/media/coford/content/publications/projectreports/cofordconnects/cofordconnectsnotes/00675CCNPP44Revised091216.pdf
-
The thing with heat-treating is that everyone has their own way and length of time doing it. I've used the bed of coals several times as well
-
I read all or most of the postings and it's clear a couple of things need to be clarified for emphasis.
I am very familiar with everything in the Traditional Bowyers Bible volumes, and I genuinely respect the quality of work involved, and all those who did that work.
If I didn't have something new to discuss in 2019, there would be nothing to talk about.
This also means what I am doing is -- for the 21st century -- something nobody has done (or at least not enough to have written about it themselves) for many decades.
My motivation was very clear and focused -- an interest in exactly what Native Americans did. It's well documented they liked trees killed by fire and/or subjecting entire staves to prolonged heat, for example hanging wood high in a lodge, longhouse, etc., over rising heat from a fire.
This means the whole point was to fire-harden an entire stave, nothing less than that, and test the results.
After doing this with 30 bows, I am satisfied the results are consistent, and anyone else can get the same results if they follow the same procedure.
The results are:
-- Hydrophobic wood. Even with no varnish or any other finish, the bows resist taking on increased moisture content in humid conditions. The finished bows show that even if abused by water itself, they return to an optimum 10 percent moisture content far more quickly than a routine piece of wood.
-- The resulting bows also yield a draw weight about 35% higher than an otherwise identical bow using untreated wood. This greatly reduces the bow's mass weight in relation to draw weight. The improvement to efficiency is considerable.
-- And yeah, less string follow. No surprise there.
And as to exactly how it's done, the DVD will address that.
Interesting. Treating an entire stave is something I did not do in my research, at least not on purpose. The times I did accidentally toast the back did not give me any confidence that doing so would give me a reliable bow.
The hanging of wood, or a bow, in a lodge was not to heat-treat it, you need a lot more heat than that. It was to keep the wood dry. Whether natives actually did temper their bows is debatable, there are no known records of them doing this.
I remember making an Elm recurve for a friend in AR who brought the bow up to MoJam, this was in early 2000. He told me after that he had a few of his friends pull the bow back to full draw and hold it there and when he took the bow down it still held most of its reflex, the bow had several inches of reflex to begin with. The weather at the time was quite humid
Quite frankly I am skeptical of your claims since I didn't see anything on the videos I watched to indicate an improvement in performance over a regular heat-treated bow. A reduction in mass is also realized with a regularly heat-treated bow.
I see this type of comment over and over. Not giving credit to Native American knowledge, just because its not written out in a book somewhere word for word that they did this or that.
You are talking about a culture with more knowledge of wood than you and I. You are talking about a culture who uses fire more than you and I. You are talking about human beings with the same cognitive capabilities as you and I. Of course they knew what prolonged heat exposure did to woods. Out where I live (Sierra Nevadas) natives labor was preferred over other ethnicities to build (not engineer) the massive tressels the logging railroads needed to span across huge creeks and drainages because their craftsmanship with wood was superior.
No one on this website nor this fella Shannon has done this first - guaranteed without evidence ; )
-
You can't get carried away with cognitive abilities matching and use of a material as thorough knowledge of said material.
-
But that's how I explain my knowledge of a material; through the use of it and my own capabilities? I see your point, maybe; more goes into it not just tradition/long term use? Can you elaborate?
Again, we are drawing back (no pun intended) on the capabilities of Natives: their tradition and intimate relationship with the material cannot be forgotten.
Its just a common theme on here I feel when Native perspective into something is talked about: how could they do this or that, they must have had some help, or it was accomplished on accident, etc, etc. In fact I believe I read on here that north American horn bow technology was somehow brought over by the Turks???? Incredible - no way, it was an isolated invention by the natives! Even the title Primitive Archer; primitive give a sense of "backwards" not fully there yet (not against the title just want to make a point). We are all only as capable as our present technology provides, in one thousand years we will laugh at today's computers. But now, they are the bees knees.
Just yesterday I was on a thread for this website talking about Natives and if they spined their arrows. I think the individual was referring to Ishi, that he never took time to spine his arrows. It was inconceivable to this individual that Ishi did not do this. I replied of course he did, just not the same way you and I would today.
Just to be clear, my comment started with Marcs comment that we don't have any evidence that they heat treated their bows. I think if we are finding success with it today, they were as well back then.
Great thread, I will always backup native knowledge : )
-
Hey guys!! Long time no talk!
For those who may not know me, I'm Billy Berger, and I was involved with production of the video. I've been watching this thread for a while, reading what everyone has written. And I wanted to clear up a few things about this new fire hardened bow technique.
First off, I don't know as much as Keith Shannon does about this technique, since he's the one who came up with it and has been experimenting with fire hardening bows for over 2 years. I was brought in as a cameraman and editor. That's my expertise. I was shown the technique and filmed it. I have a pretty good idea of how it's done, although everyone will have their own way of fire hardening and there is no ONE way to do it. However, Keith's experiments have shown, at least for him, that using traditional dry heat from charcoal or a fire gives better results as opposed to using a grill or some other modern contraption.
I have seen, and filmed, fire hardened white wood bows outshoot Osage bows that pulled 5 lbs more, and I've seen fire hardened bows match, and even surpass the speed of fiberglass traditional bows of the same draw weight. Some folks questioned the accuracy of the draw length we shot these bows at during the chronograph tests. The bows were secured, with clamps, to a shooting table and Keith had precise draw lengths noted on the table to be sure he drew the bows precisely to the draw length indicated on the video. Although you can't see it on the video, there were marks indicated on the shooting table. Of course he drew the bows by hand because that's what we had; the only way to have been pinpoint accurate would have been to use a precision shooting machine with a predetermined draw length and mechanical release. But the number of test shots we did (and many didn't make it on the video due to time constraints), showed that the speeds we got were quite consistent. Precision shooting machines would likely give similar results in speed tests, though there might be a difference of 2 or 3 FPS in either direction.
Keith really torture tested these bows and put them through their paces because he wanted to be certain that his results were consistent, accurate, and repeatable. He wanted to be sure this wasn't just a fluke. And every time he's made these bows he's been greeted with the same results. He's got a lot of credibility in the hunting industry and there's no way he'd ruin that by making false claims about the performance of fire hardened white wood bows without proving it to himself. He repeated to me personally, many times, that he wanted to be sure that what he was claiming was true, and that the speed results he was getting were accurate. I saw them for myself and I've shot his fire hardened bows...and they're fast. I'm so confident in their abilities that I'm currently working on a fire hardened hickory bow that I plan on taking to South Africa next year on my first ever African Plains game bowhunt.
-
But that's how I explain my knowledge of a material; through the use of it and my own capabilities? I see your point, maybe; more goes into it not just tradition/long term use? Can you elaborate?
Again, we are drawing back (no pun intended) on the capabilities of Natives: their tradition and intimate relationship with the material cannot be forgotten.
Its just a common theme on here I feel when Native perspective into something is talked about: how could they do this or that, they must have had some help, or it was accomplished on accident, etc, etc. In fact I believe I read on here that north American horn bow technology was somehow brought over by the Turks???? Incredible - no way, it was an isolated invention by the natives! Even the title Primitive Archer; primitive give a sense of "backwards" not fully there yet (not against the title just want to make a point). We are all only as capable as our present technology provides, in one thousand years we will laugh at today's computers. But now, they are the bees knees.
Just yesterday I was on a thread for this website talking about Natives and if they spined their arrows. I think the individual was referring to Ishi, that he never took time to spine his arrows. It was inconceivable to this individual that Ishi did not do this. I replied of course he did, just not the same way you and I would today.
Just to be clear, my comment started with Marcs comment that we don't have any evidence that they heat treated their bows. I think if we are finding success with it today, they were as well back then.
Great thread, I will always backup native knowledge : )
Ishi wasn't even aware that arrows rotated.
-
But that's how I explain my knowledge of a material; through the use of it and my own capabilities? I see your point, maybe; more goes into it not just tradition/long term use? Can you elaborate?
Again, we are drawing back (no pun intended) on the capabilities of Natives: their tradition and intimate relationship with the material cannot be forgotten.
Its just a common theme on here I feel when Native perspective into something is talked about: how could they do this or that, they must have had some help, or it was accomplished on accident, etc, etc. In fact I believe I read on here that north American horn bow technology was somehow brought over by the Turks???? Incredible - no way, it was an isolated invention by the natives! Even the title Primitive Archer; primitive give a sense of "backwards" not fully there yet (not against the title just want to make a point). We are all only as capable as our present technology provides, in one thousand years we will laugh at today's computers. But now, they are the bees knees.
Just yesterday I was on a thread for this website talking about Natives and if they spined their arrows. I think the individual was referring to Ishi, that he never took time to spine his arrows. It was inconceivable to this individual that Ishi did not do this. I replied of course he did, just not the same way you and I would today.
Just to be clear, my comment started with Marcs comment that we don't have any evidence that they heat treated their bows. I think if we are finding success with it today, they were as well back then.
Great thread, I will always backup native knowledge : )
Ishi wasn't even aware that arrows rotated.
And your point? He also thought a certain paint color on his arrows brought him more accuracy.
This is my point exactly, putting down native knowledge because its not how you would do it. Or you simply don't understand it.
-
My point is that this would be an example of lack of knowledge.
Arrows rotate and paint doesn't influence accuracy
-
I have a pretty good idea of how it's done, although there are still some trade secrets that Keith hasn't divulged...even to me.
And what's the point to buy this DVD if that fire treating method doesn't work without those secrets :)?
-
What does Ishi gain in knowing his arrow spins? My point is there is no harm or foul to think your arrow doesn't spin, just as its fine to think red makes your arrow more accurate.
No gain or loss in my book in thinking "red" makes your arrow fly more accurately. I'm sure we all have our own little quirks when it comes to archery. I used to play college baseball and I swore having a little bit longer nails made me throw the ball more accurately. I did get made fun of course, but I never cut my nails before a game.
None of these things take away from Ishi's knowledge.
Once again, I find it comical that along this whole thread people are saying I did this first (in regards to heat treating), no I was doing this 15 years ago, on and on. Shannon provided pretty good evidence in the ethnographic record that Indians were heat treating their bows/staves/trees in the southeast. Its funny too, because wouldn't heat treating your bow be very helpful in a very humid environment? Never heard of heat treating out west where its dry??
We get a little full of ourselves as "modern" people thinking we are the first to do this or that.
-
They are not saying that they were the first, merely that they had already done it as a natural progression of heat treating being re-discovered 18 years ago in an old re-print article of Ye Sylvan Archer.
-
I think the point is, it's not that they are heat treating, it's how they are heat treating. A lot of people are saying, "I've heated over coals, it's no big deal." But how many of those people can say they they suspended the bow four or five feet(or whatever) over the fire and left it for hours. Most people that heat treat do it until they get some colour change. I don't really think there would be that much colour change at 270°f. I don't think he's made a major discovery or that he's the first but it is slightly different than probably 99% of us do it. I've been on here since 2014 and there have been a lot of heat treating threads. I don't remember anyone suggesting or using a similar method. I think it's just different enough to possibly be of value. I know in my future heat treating attempts this will be in the back of my mind and I'd bet I'm not the only one. ;)
-
I doubt any two of us do it exactly the same. You'd have to prove how much a variation of placement and duration really matters to the end result.
I've done all sorts of variations and the net result is hairsplitting in difference.
-
I doubt any two of us do it exactly the same. You'd have to prove how much a variation of placement and duration really matters to the end result.
I've done all sorts of variations and the net result is hairsplitting in difference.
Agreed. It sure would have been a boon if all of us had kept detailed accurate records over the years. It's hard to know ahead of time what records to keep though and it can be so time consuming that it's easy to just forget it.
-
In case anyone didn't read the above link. Here's the Science synopsis.
"During heat treatment changes occur within the cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin components of the wood. Cellulose undergoes some reduction in molecular weight, but cellulose crystallinity can increase. Hemicelluloses are the most thermally reactive cell wall constituents having lower thermal stability due to their lack of crystallinity, and during thermal
treatment carbonic acids, mainly acetic acid, will be formed as a result of cleavage of the acetyl groups. The formation of acetic acid further catalyses carbohydrates cleavage, causing a reduction of the degree of polymerisation. Acid catalysed degradation results in the formation of formaldehyde, furfural and other aldehydes as well as some lignin cleavage. The decomposition of hemicellluloses results in the reduction of the number of available hydroxyl groups and a lower concentration of reactive sites will therefore decrease the equilibrium moisture content of heat-treated wood and thus improve the dimensional stability. In addition, the acetic acid that has formed depolymerises the cellulose microfibrils in the amorphous area. Changes within the lignin are equally complex. During the treatment bonds between phenylpropane units are partly broken but condensation reactions occur also. The longer the autohydrolysis time is, the more condensation reactions occur. Auto-condensation of lignin is believed to occur through the formation of methylene bridges connecting aromatic rings. The extent of these reactions is mild but they lead to an increase in cross-linking with consequent improvement in its dimensional stability and decreased hygroscopicity of wood. In summary heat-treated wood has reduced hygroscopicity and improved dimensional stability because the cellulose microfibrils are surrounded by a more firm and inelastic network due to cross-linking within the lignin complex. The microfibrils have decreased expansion possibility and less capacity to absorb water between cellulose chains. This results in a lower fibre saturation point and a higher resistance to biological decay. The cell wall hemicellulose is transformed into a more hydrophobic network.
Timber species and applications Northern European softwoods including Scots pine, maritime pine, the spruces and white fir have been the predominant species used in the process and have found applications in cladding, decking, flooring, door and window frames and garden furniture. In many of these applications the warm brown colour, imparted by the process is seen as an initial aesthetic advantage. Poplar is probably the most important hardwood to receive attention and has found application as cladding/siding. Other hardwoods with a history of treatment are beech, which it is claimed will match the durability of teak after treatment, and ash and birch. Juvenile teak has also been heat treated to improve stability for furniture applications, thereby improving the utility of small diameter plantation grown materials."
-
I see this type of comment over and over. Not giving credit to Native American knowledge, just because its not written out in a book somewhere word for word that they did this or that.
You are talking about a culture with more knowledge of wood than you and I. You are talking about a culture who uses fire more than you and I. You are talking about human beings with the same cognitive capabilities as you and I. Of course they knew what prolonged heat exposure did to woods. Out where I live (Sierra Nevadas) natives labor was preferred over other ethnicities to build (not engineer) the massive tressels the logging railroads needed to span across huge creeks and drainages because their craftsmanship with wood was superior.
No one on this website nor this fella Shannon has done this first - guaranteed without evidence ; )
Some of those statements are debatable but it's cute that you think that.
-
You are talking about a culture with more knowledge of wood than you and I. You are talking about a culture who uses fire more than you and I.
I love Native American Culture as much as anyone but their knowledge largely relied on the "just enough to get by and not an ounce more". There was no need to do more.
And I say that with no disrespect to them.
Compare what other cultures have done with wood, stone and fire and you'll understand.
-
Hey guys!! Long time no talk!
I was shown the technique and filmed it. I have a pretty good idea of how it's done, although there are still some trade secrets that Keith hasn't divulged...even to me.
Hi Billy,
Thanks for chiming in. I downloaded the video and thought it was pretty well made. It’s clearly not a how to build and fire harden a white wood bow video, though it does give some basic information on his fire hardening and I appreciate the data at the end where you mentioned the temperature. I am concerned though about what you said above. What’s the point of paying almost $30 for the video if it isn’t a ‘how to’ of his technique for fire hardening? If he’s withholding information critical to successful fire hardening using his method then I’m concerned? What did I buy, a 30 buck infomercial for his bows? No thanks.
I’m pretty sure I remember him on this forum earlier saying the dvd would explain everything. I greatly appreciate this forum with its free advice and knowledge. Likewise, I don’t begrudge others who wish to earn money from their efforts. No one forced me to pay for it. But as I said, if it doesn’t include all the info necessary to replicate his results then I really question the point of paying for it. And, I think that will harm his reputation..
-
[quote author=PatM
I love Native American Culture as much as anyone but their knowledge largely relied on the "just enough to get by and not an ounce more". There was no need to do more.
Hmmm, just barely enough to get by huh? Is that your quote? Anyhow, I don’t think anyone is being disrespectful to natives either. I just don’t think they get the credit on many of these discussions.
Since this is only a bow discussion page, I won’t begin to comment on your “just enough” perspective in which you greatly generalize vast cultures that existed across millennia in what we call America as of only some 500 years ago. I’m starring at an intricate California burden basket right now pondering your comment.
Marc: my comments can be backed by references if you would like me to provide, and I’m flattered you find them cute ; )
-
Largely and not "barely". The statement is not inaccurate.
-
What you describe as cultures which “largely just get by” I would describe as simple. I think you may agree to that? What’s problematic is your “just get by” perspective is narrow minded because your disregarding that their is a reason to be simple: survival. If your in a survival situation today are you building a bow or making something more simple to “just get by” such as cordage to survive? That cordage will take less energy to make and be more efficient in procuring meat than making a bow - snare. See where your “just get by perspective” fails to see this point? To me heat teating wood for a better performing bow is a simple step to take to improve it. There is nothing earth shattering about it. To think that no southeastern tribes heat treat their wood is plain silly.
-
Ok let me clarify.... Keith didn't withhold any info on how to actually make the fire hardened bow. There are a few little tricks he does that are his own way of doing things that are not shown in the video. That's what I meant. These are things that he's learned, even since we were done filming the video that were not included in the DVD, but it's not as if he left out any information to trip anyone up. Everyone will have their own way of fire hardening, so take the info you got and run with it. Experiment with different techniques on different wood species and see what happens. You may come up with a better or more efficent way to do it. If so, great! We wanted to create this video to spur people to take this info and learn to make a fire hardened bow. Once you grasp the basic concept, let your experimenting mind and imagination run wild. We can't answer every question, cover ever single topic, or even foresee what people may encounter when we make a video. There isn't enough time or space for that. Keith's technique for making the fire hardened bow is covered and that's enough for anyone with some basic bow building experience to take to make their own fire hardened bow. We made this video with the assumption that people have already made white wood bows and would be interested in taking it to the next level. There's PLENTY of info in print, on the Internet, YouTube, and other social media platforms showing how to make a basic wooden bow out of a tree. To cover that entire subject again in our video would be redundant. This video is not how to make a wooden bow, it's how to make a fire hardened bow, so we focused more on the actual fire hardening topic, the science behind it, moisture content differences between raw, heat treated and fire hardened wood, and finally chronograph tests of the finished bows showing their performance. I'll edit that last post about the trade secrets being left out because that's not quite what I meant. I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking the video is in some way leaving out vital info that would lead to failure.
-
Yes, it was the fact that fire hardening made the bows hydrophobic, and they would retain consistent performance in high humidity environments that Keith was originally trying to solve. He wasn't doing it to enhance performance, he was trying to make them more moisture resistant. He lives on the GA coast where humidity is high almost year round.
-
Thanks, good clarification.
Modification: i wasn’t expecting a bow building dvd, so no issues there. If there were some designs better suited for this method than others that would be nice to know, but I assume it will work on typical designs.
-
You are talking about a culture with more knowledge of wood than you and I. You are talking about a culture who uses fire more than you and I. You are talking about human beings with the same cognitive capabilities as you and I. Of course they knew what prolonged heat exposure did to woods. Out where I live (Sierra Nevadas) natives labor was preferred over other ethnicities to build (not engineer) the massive tressels the logging railroads needed to span across huge creeks and drainages because their craftsmanship with wood was superior.
No question they knew a lot about wood but I don't think their knowledge of wood included the building of trestles. Most likely they did the work because it was one of the few things the Europeans would hire them for. Up here in the early 1900's many of my family would not be hired unless they hid their native heritage
-
What you describe as cultures which “largely just get by” I would describe as simple. I think you may agree to that? What’s problematic is your “just get by” perspective is narrow minded because your disregarding that their is a reason to be simple: survival. If your in a survival situation today are you building a bow or making something more simple to “just get by” such as cordage to survive? That cordage will take less energy to make and be more efficient in procuring meat than making a bow - snare. See where your “just get by perspective” fails to see this point? To me heat teating wood for a better performing bow is a simple step to take to improve it. There is nothing earth shattering about it. To think that no southeastern tribes heat treat their wood is plain silly.
I think you're trying to put words in my mouth.
-
Not at all. Just pointing that your “just enough to get by” rationale has holes in it. These societies led to cultures such as the Hopewell tradition (I’m sure your familiar) - massive trade routes with elaborate artifacts and stunning effigy mounds, the civilizations of the southwest, Cahokia, Povery Point in Louisiana, Machu Pichu, Mesoamerica - all these civilizations rose from hunter gatherer societies - are their achievements “just enough to get by.” By the time Europeans arrive these societies have risen and fallen after several millennia.
PatM you say yourself on this thread state the Cherokee fire seasoned trees? My initial comment was to Marc as he said their is little written record to state the southeast Indians heat treated their bows.
Now we are this topic of native cultures as being simple ... I will never agree and I don’t think you will either.
John Muir has a quote about natives he witnessed out in the Sierras during his travelings. By that time native folks had been transformed and living in povery and just surviving.He said he has never seen such a sorry race, their skin resembling the cracked surface of the rocks, wanderers across the land. This is paraphrased of course. This has always stuck in my mind, because the very beauty of the Sierras was largely attributed to land management practices of California Indians. Muir himself fails to see this because he casts them of as degraded humans (also he was simply a man of his time who shared the same sentiment toward Indians as other whites did) Their are many reason for the catastrophic fires out here, but it all begins with the abandonment of fire as a tool for managing the land (United States government policy ). Kat Andersons breakthrough book “Taming the Wild” (I’m a bit off on the title) gives countless accounts through ethnographic work, writings from explorer, and elder native knowledge. Again, these societies are much more sophisticated than you are making them out to be. See beyond their simplicity, their is much more to them that we don’t even know because that knowledge is gone.
-
Yep, exceptions in certain areas but by and large there was little time for extra innovation. Sticking to the subject of bows in the area mentioned, the bows were still simple bows, even with heat treating.
-
We make a mistake in over romanticizing this subject. Lots of things that can be admired about the broader culture. Scientific discovery was not among them.
-
Yes, they are simple bows out there. Is the horn bow and sinew backed bow not an innovation beyond the simpler self bow? Hunter gatherer societies developed these weapons - The Sheep Eaters/Shoshone, Hidatsa, Nez Perfe and some Paiute groups. Paiutes built incredible bows and have always been dubbed the lesser of tribes because of their very nomadic lifestyle and few possessions. The Modoc, Klamath, Hupa, Shasta built some of the most beautiful bows in North America. In general California tribe arrows are always a work of art and very intricate.
All these tribes are “ hunter gatherer societies”, yet they developed these bows. There was no need for it, the sheep eater and buffalo eating tribes did not have to developed these horn bows to be successful in their hunt. Look at the Comanche bow, very simple not much to it. Of course the horn bow folks didn’t t have Osage. My point is they sure as heck took time to develope better performing bows than what would have been needed to survive and provide for their tribe.
-
Yes, but those bows are still on the simple side. Even the horn based ones.
Next you'll be comparing a longhouse to the spire of Notre Dame as pretty much similar architecture and wood based engineering.
-
Oh man! Bows in essence are simple. No, I’m not. Then I would be using your archaic rationale that stips cultures to their technological accomplishments and nothing else.
-
But I’m sure you think French culture of that period is superior to the longhouse cultures because they built Notre Dame.
Comparing apples to oranges.
Like I said see beyond their technology.
-
Technologically, yes.
Other parts of what constitutes culture and make one "superior" to the other are more of an opinion on what appeals to the person observing it.
-
I don’t disagree with that!
-
We are getting too closer to the political argument here. Let's just do the philosophical one, instead. ;) Why are we here? Why are we making "primitive" bows when we could be making remote control airplanes or even automatic rifles? We are not even using fiberglass because it is the product of too much technology! This is the problem of natural human tendency to pursue the limit of our capability, no matter what. It is one thing to try to figure out what is the "authentic" or best way to heat treat a wooden bow using "primitive" means. But it is completely another to argue about who is the first one that discovered the technique and has proof of discovery. We are here probably because we do not like the competitive and egocentric ways of modern society. Let's go back to the "old" way of sharing our experience freely (as in TBB and other books) and stop fighting over the technique like patent lawyers, please.
-
Disagree with that. I am not here as a result of some dislike I have regarding modernity. We live in a marvelous time and I am greatfull to be a part of it. I am interested in this stuff because I can be. It interests me. I don’t have any need to overly romanticize some ancient practice or wrongly hate on other modern practices. Good and bad can be found in both. In every culture, in every period and in every corner of the planet. This is my musical instrument I play because I like the notes. It’s that simple for me.
-
Yep. I just happen to like natural materials and seeing what I can get out of them.
We all draw lines somewhere in our interests or life in general, regardless of what's actually available to us.
-
I watched the film and found it entertaining taken with a grain of salt. I didn’t expect to be blown away by some mystical rediscovered way of heat treating but definitely learned a different method. I think it could have been released to YouTube like many of Billy’s other videos but oh well, these guys gotta make a living. I’ll stick with my method of heat treating, works for me. I don’t have a crony to measure arrow speed but I do have some of Marcs bows as a comparison and while mine may not be as efficient as his they still fling an arrow pretty good and even better with heat treatment.
-
I don't like to use a heat gun because of noise and power waste. I don't like to work outside too much. Therefore I cannot use any open fire. Actually I found out that the silicon heating pad for making musical instruments works even better: silent, safe, low power use, and much better temperature control. The most important thing I realized is that even but low temperature for a long time, at least one hour, works much better, in theory and in practice. Hanging a bow over a fire pit sounds pretty good to me, if you know what you are doing. Do not heat treat the back, at all costs, because that will make the bow too brittle.
-
scp i’ve been using a silicone heating pad as well. it’s nice being able to match the shape of any limb while cutting down labor. mine is for thawing winter pipes and has a thermostat up to 400f. I can heat treat a little better with the heat gun and best with coals but the big advantage of the silicone pad is that it’s passive work and I only need to adjust it every 10 or 20 minutes. For me operating a heat gun for 45 minutes a limb is a real hassle, especially at multiple heat treats per bow, and coals are something I save for special bows.
What I really want for day to day use is a flexible heater that puts out radiant heat like coals...but most of the products and rigs I’ve tried out have burnt up, started a fire, been too weak, or filled the room with plastic smoke.
-
I watched the video and found the information interesting and intriguing. I believe the guys did a good job presenting their method along with the benefits they found. I am happy with what I learned from the video. There was plenty of information presented that was new knowledge to me. I took away quite a few new ideas to try.
Cheers,
Taylor
-
Has anyone ever tried heat treating over a bed of coals, but with the using the same idea the Japanese sword makers use. Like coat the back of the bow in mud to prevent too much heat getting to it?
Just a thought that just popped in my head.
-
There is little reason to worry about the back if you manage the process well.
-
aznboi—sleek and some members were talking about doing something like this some threads back. I ended up trying it and got a decent quality heat treat but all the sand and gravel I got in the bow made it really nasty on my bladed tools. I also had to keep reapplying mud as it baked on and caked off, which is a pain around an active fire.
Id like to try it again but next time i’ll use much finer clay or a slurry of ash or something else that won’t chip my tools. The mud definitely kept the back from getting too hot to touch but I also didn’t notice the heat treatment going unusually deep.
patm i agree that usually there’s no need to worry about the back. This method would only be for heat treats that are so extreme that they might affect the back. It just seems to me that the back scorching is the limiting factor on how deep heat treating can go at the max, so removing that variable could unlock the possibility for deeper treatment.
-
I don't really think so. A slow heat treat will go almost all the way through. You can see this by cutting up a treated limb.
At some point the depth of the heat treat is counterproductive as far as back safety goes so you'll be walking that fine line either way.
-
I got the fire hardened bow dvd and watched it, very well done. It opens the door to a lot of experimentation of this concept in the future for second string white wood bows.
The rules for this treatment aren't hard and fast, with as many great boyers as there are out there I am sure we will see this concept experimented with and advanced even more.
I probably have 25 arrow straight sweetgum trees on my little 4 acre place, some are 12-14" in diameter, some larger, some smaller. It would be fun turning some of this trash wood into shootable bows. You would have to saw it into staves, it doesn't split worth a hoot.
-
Patm I shouldn’t have said” deep” heat treating when i really meant aggressive, either in time or temperature. I think heat treating past the neutral plane would be counterproductive, and you’re definitely right that it’s not hard to reach that deep.
I usually stop when the back starts getting too hot, so the hope is that by keeping the back cool, the heat treat could be more aggressive on the belly before it starts to have an effect beyond the neutral plane. Maybe it’s a longshot, just something i’ve played with trying to get a few percent better here or there
-
The tests done on heat treated wood for other purposes really narrow down the productive range of temperature and time.
Marc mentioned overdoing a bow and briefly getting pretty spectacular results but it wasn't a long lasting bow. Might be a good trick for a record flight bow however.
Personally I think a heat treating that mimics a typical backing to belly ratio in a simple laminated bow is the best goal.
-
You are talking about a culture with more knowledge of wood than you and I. You are talking about a culture who uses fire more than you and I.
I love Native American Culture as much as anyone but their knowledge largely relied on the "just enough to get by and not an ounce more". There was no need to do more.
And I say that with no disrespect to them.
Compare what other cultures have done with wood, stone and fire and you'll understand.
I'm just getting caught up on this conversation, but I definitely think some aspects of native culture have been getting overly dismissed here. I'm all about science, and the extent of modern knowledge is amazing. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a sizeable percentage of natives knew more about wood than you or I (that's not to say they knew more than all the knowledge contained in modern libraries and scientific journals).
'Largely just enough to get by' is a terrible description of their knowledge. A life of hunting and gathering is hard, but modern people have many misguided ideas about it. Native societies had actually had a good deal more leisure time than the white agricultural societies that lived alongside them. This was the seed of a lot of racism. White people saw them as lazy, but the native life simply wasn't as hard as the farming life. Also, they were better fed through the winter, with white settlements often having to rely on the native's help and knowledge to avoid starving.
I'm not saying they knew more than we do now, probably not, but science is still learning from their knowledge of the environments they lived in and we can only guess at how much knowledge has been lost. The extent of their knowledge on plants was amazing, but every now and again you come across an example that defies reason. Like when combining 2 plants in to a drink in a specific way has a strong effect, but individually either plant has no effect at all. Without foreknowledge, looking around at all the thousands of species of plants, it boggles the mind to imagine how they discovered that. Were they trying the millions of different combinations of plants, and remembering the millions of different results of each test without a writing system, recording the injuries and deaths from the bad combinations, until they found something good? When a native was asked how they could possibly know astronomically unlikely things like that, the native looked confused and replied, "Do the plants not sing to you?" I don't believe in mystical powers or anything, and I have no idea what that answer means. But I think it's clear that they had a connection with the land that a modern person can scarcely imagine.
What they could do with stone? Look at the Incan walls of Cuzco for some of the most amazing stone work possibly ever, anywhere. I can't even begin to understand how they did it. Tellingly, some of the most impressed people today are modern stone masons. Contemporary accounts of the Aztecs are replete with the marvels of their craft. The conquistadors said their gold work would challenge the best gold smiths of Spain, and when the Spanish got Aztec carpenters to help to build Spanish war ships, the conquistadors remarked that they were probably the highest quality Spanish ships ever made. The first conquistadors write about feeling like they were in an alien fantasy land from some fanciful novel, dotted with temples that they say were equal in splendor to European cathedrals. This was before the Spanish set about destroying the culture, which they succeeded at to a horrifying degree.
But the various cultures of the Americas were as different from each other as they were from the Europeans, and obviously the nomads of the North American plains lived in a very different way from the civilizations of Central and South America. But North America had impressive civilizations too, ones we know very little about today. Civilizations that had come and gone before the Europeans had a chance to see.
But even just the North American cultures the Europeans did see. Particularly the earlier accounts, before European disease and war took their toll. The crafts are not the works of a people who are living on the edge of survival. These things took serious time and skill, as I'm sure you will agree, and elaborately decorated objects work about as well as non-decorated ones. Not an ounce more than what is necessary? Quite the contrary.
Anyway, bit of a side debate, but I'd feel bad not contributing to it.
-
My biggest gripe about them was the appearance that they didnt stick with 10gpp and post before and after numbers of the same bow with the heat treat. Not enough scientific method applied. But that's from the advertising and previews. Is the video more scientific?
-
Sleek, I would say that, unfortunately, the video is not much more scientific than you portray. I wrote about that in my review a few pages back. They could have done a much better job documenting things, though I admit they did a decent job documenting the consequences of humidity changes on the wood's moisture content. A good video, overall, though it leaves plenty of questions for others to pursue.
-
I have said this before. You can heat-treat a bow in as many ways as you want but you will never increase the wood's elasticity while doing it.
-
I have said this before. You can heat-treat a bow in as many ways as you want but you will never increase the wood's elasticity while doing it.
I like how that was said.
-
Sleek, I would say that, unfortunately, the video is not much more scientific than you portray. I wrote about that in my review a few pages back. They could have done a much better job documenting things, though I admit they did a decent job documenting the consequences of humidity changes on the wood's moisture content. A good video, overall, though it leaves plenty of questions for others to pursue.
Thanks bud.