Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: StickMark on February 04, 2021, 08:59:35 pm
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At what temperature, say around 15-50 relative humidity, does a sinew backed bow suffer loss in draw weight? I have heard some Arizona archers mention this before.
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If I lived somewhere with that r.h. range I'd make a lot more sinew backed bows :)
Sinew will shine in low humidity like that. Design your bow from the outset for the conditions you intend to use it in. Any bow would 'soften up' a bit in high temp, sinew wouldn't make that change worse.
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Bows become less stiff in the heat. To get around this, simply build your bows bigger for hot weather. The best design for hot weather is wide, thin limbs, at least 2½ inches wide, preferably over 3 inches. Make them as thin as cardboard. Such a bow conducts heat well, but also loses it more quickly. I have some bows that are 4 inches wide that are impossible to string without heat. If the weather isn't hot, those monsters have to be warmed by a radiant heat source. And I always store them in a high humidity environment.
Bows are less likely to break in hot weather as long as they aren't too dry (most people keep their bows way too dry). Any glue on the bow can fail in hot weather, hence why I build hot weather bows wide and thin to radiate the excess heat away quickly.
One thing that is often neglected is sunlight. UV destroys wood and sinew. The ancients painted their bows for a reason, and it wasn't for pretty looks. They were aware of the destructive and oxidative nature of sunlight.
The question is: how do we paint our bows without adding too much weight?
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At what temperature, say around 15-50 relative humidity, does a sinew backed bow suffer loss in draw weight? I have heard some Arizona archers mention this before.
Never heard that one before. It gets very dry in my house during the winter here, right now it hovers around 30% RH, and I have always had great success with sinew in the winter
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my understanding is that is when sinew shines the best.. you can take a hickory bow made in the south unbacked , take it out west and it will increase in poundage ... that is what a few have experienced... gut
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I should have been more specific, perhaps.
Would 95 to 110 be too hot for the hide glue matrix to be at its best?
I will not leave it a car in summer desert. But, for ambush hunting in summer, where Temps are 95 to 115, I wonder....
My sinew is on hickory stave, fwiw
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Cured Hide glue does not suffer from heat,
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Cured Hide glue does not suffer from heat, (=)
Oh yes it does.
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Cured Hide glue does not suffer from heat, (=)
Oh yes it does.
Sure if you throw it in the fire it will burn but that's not what we are talking about here
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Cured Hide glue does not suffer from heat, (=)
Oh yes it does.
Sure if you throw it in the fire it will burn but that's not what we are talking about here
If the surface of the bow heats up beyond 105 degrees farenheit, glue is going to soften up considerably. That can easily happen in a quiver exposed to direct sunlight south of the 35th parallel, particularly if the quiver is animal skin.
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Stop making up stuff, Tom.
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Cured Hide glue does not suffer from heat, (=)
Oh yes it does.
Sure if you throw it in the fire it will burn but that's not what we are talking about here
If the surface of the bow heats up beyond 105 degrees farenheit, glue is going to soften up considerably. That can easily happen in a quiver exposed to direct sunlight south of the 35th parallel, particularly if the quiver is animal skin.
105 F. Really? I have done a mild heat-treat on a sinew backed bow with no adverse effects to the hide glue and that was a heck of a lot higher temp than 105 F. You must be thinking of those people that use TB3 with their sinew to back bows and even then it would take a lot more than 105 degrees, maybe 105 degrees C.
Spreading false information doesn't help anyone
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Thanks for the replies. I am looking for what you guys are sharing.
Here is a more detailed explanation of why I ask.
Now that spot and stalk mulie rut season has come and gone, and as I am not harvesting smaller ones, it is prep-time for summer velvet season. I never killed a deer from ambushing, and I plan on that this year.
My interest is in hunting bows that can handle the long periods of being "strung up." You may recall, I go on and on about the wide range of humidity and temps in beloved southern Arizona. I have had reservations about using some non-primitive techniques, like spar poly sprayed over the tru-oil'ed sinewed back for moisture protection. But then, buck only tags and seasons are not exactly primitive either, not one bit. In any case, I know that temps get really high at time, close to 100, over 100, even at 4500 feet elevation.
From what I read, the Chiricahua Apache band built their gull wing bow often without a sinew layer, and I wondered "why is that?" I am looking for the source, but that is what I recall reading from last summer.
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Cured Hide glue does not suffer from heat, (=)
Oh yes it does.
Sure if you throw it in the fire it will burn but that's not what we are talking about here
If the surface of the bow heats up beyond 105 degrees farenheit, glue is going to soften up considerably. That can easily happen in a quiver exposed to direct sunlight south of the 35th parallel, particularly if the quiver is animal skin.
That's patently false. I have left a sinewed backed osage bow inside a closed up vehicle in direct sun where the temps rose in excess of 145 degrees. The hide glue was absolutely unaffected in any way, shape, or form, except to maybe cure what little residual moisture it may have absorbed in the more humid part of the year!
In fact, there is quite a lot of literature regarding competition shooting of Turkish composite bows with sinew and hide glue backs being purposely kept in a hot box prior to shooting!
I have to question whether you have experience with actual hide glue.
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I want to see Tom's four inch wide bows. And his hot sinew backed bows in a skin quiver too.
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Yes JW that is a fact. Around 40 - 45 celcius was the temperature used. 105 - 115 f.
During construction of a hornbow when gluing the horn to the core the horn is heated to around 50 celcius. The horn at this point has many sizings coats of thin glue. The heat is to soften the horn so it follows the cores shape perfectly and with less ressitance. Also during tillering the bow can be heated to 50 degrees for correction of twists. Relatively high heat is the primary tool for correcting twists etc on hornbows.....funny how they don't all fall apart :)
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https://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/Scythian_bow_ATARN.pdf
The core's back was made round as the original's, scraped smooth, lightly
grooved, well sized with glue and the limbs backed with sinew (soaked in 25%
glue) over the (future) deflexed sections. This backing was done before bending
the mid-limbs for the added security. The sinew did not need to be applied in the
final thickness at this time. Since the heat required for bending could cause
delamination of the limbs, the entire mid-limb section was then bound with
sinew.
The ambient humidity should be no less than about 60%RH for the materials to
have sufficient moisture content for bending. The 60%RH represents moderately
humid conditions, which would likely be encountered in a human-occupied tent
even in a dry climate of Central Asia, perhaps augmented by a pot with boiling water.
The sections were exposed to slow heat, making sure the surface temperature did not exceed 60⁰c, for about 1 hour. Then the limbs were bent over pre-made formers (similar to the Turkish tepeliks for the replica). The forces needed to flex the core were not excessive at all. The pressure was maintained until the curvature exceeded the desired profile to account for spring-back. Since the bow‟s core, unlike in the finished bow, was wider than thicker at this stage and the bending was done in the plane perpendicular to the greater dimension of the laminated limb, no problems with limb twist was encountered and the limbs remained perfectly aligned. After the limbs had cooled, the sinew binding was removed, leaving the sinew backing in place. There was some slippage of the parts at one of the wood splices within the core, now visible on the belly. It did not, however, weaken the limb in any way and the splice held well. Interestingly, on the original bow's back, a small step was found at the location of one of the splices where the parts joined. If the step was caused by the slippage at the splice, it indicates the original bow could indeed be heat-bent after the core was laminated together, following the same methods as in the replica, with the slip under the sinew left unseen by the bowyer and never corrected. There is no doubt this method was the most logical and practical for the bowyer to force the limbs into the permanent deflex.
3:50 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6AUq6f5SD8
This is the part where JW Halverson publicly apologizes to me for his barbaric arrogance and stupidity.
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Just stop, Tom. Try to be more productive and less combative in your silly way.
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Yes JW that is a fact. Around 40 - 45 celcius was the temperature used. 105 - 115 f.
During construction of a hornbow when gluing the horn to the core the horn is heated to around 50 celcius. The horn at this point has many sizings coats of thin glue. The heat is to soften the horn so it follows the cores shape perfectly and with less ressitance. Also during tillering the bow can be heated to 50 degrees for correction of twists. Relatively high heat is the primary tool for correcting twists etc on hornbows.....funny how they don't all fall apart :)
The original Ottoman hornbowyers never used those stupid lightbulb boxes, for the obvious reason that lightbulbs and accurate thermometers didn't exist in Turkey until the 20th century, when the art was dead. They are a toy of 21st century morons who call whatever is is they do "Turkish archery". Nobody stores a bow at +105 degress farenheit.
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Goodbye Tom.
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Cured Hide glue does not suffer from heat, (=)
Oh yes it does.
Sure if you throw it in the fire it will burn but that's not what we are talking about here
If the surface of the bow heats up beyond 105 degrees farenheit, glue is going to soften up considerably. That can easily happen in a quiver exposed to direct sunlight south of the 35th parallel, particularly if the quiver is animal skin.
105 F. Really? I have done a mild heat-treat on a sinew backed bow with no adverse effects to the hide glue and that was a heck of a lot higher temp than 105 F. You must be thinking of those people that use TB3 with their sinew to back bows and even then it would take a lot more than 105 degrees, maybe 105 degrees C.
Spreading false information doesn't help anyone
You're a riot. You have no way of knowing whether your bow was affected or not. For all you know, it would have shot better without the heat treatment. Adam Karpowicz tried to bend a glued up Scythian bow and made sure, using an electric thermometer, that the surface temperature never exceeded 60⁰F. The glue softened up, and one of the (sinew-backed) joints in the wooden core slipped. What makes you think the sinew isn't slipping and catching air bubbles at those temperatures? It most assuredly is. You just can't see it. You'll never know what that bow's performance could have been without the heat treatment/abuse.
The takeaway here though is that Adam did a more severe bend than probably anyone here has ever done, using less than 60⁰C heat. You will never need a temperature higher than that as a bowyer.
I never, ever let glue get exposed to +105⁰F degree heat. That you would expose it to 105⁰C reveals your ignorance. That kind of temperature will destroy wood, much less glue. These materials aren't heat resistant as some of you seem to bizarrely think they are. Why you think you would need that much temperature is perplexing, when they clearly respond more ideally to warmth (100-105⁰f degress farenheit), rather than heat. A fact that aptly demonstrates their sensitivity to temperature change.
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Goodbye Tom.
Good morning Pat.
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You seem to not know the difference between C and F or the meaning of belies. Or about heat treating wood either.
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You seem to not know the difference between C and F or the meaning of belies. Or about heat treating wood either.
"Heat treating wood" is an oxymoron and a superstitious ritual developed by primitive bowyers. It's a great way to destroy a bow. I didn't get any specs wrong in that post and picking apart accidental double negatives just shows your catty vindictiveness towards me.
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Tom, 60 degrees C is 140 F.
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Well, the consensus seems to be that a sinew bow will not suffer any significant performance loss at temperatures that may reach into the 100-115 range in the noon time.
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Tom, we don't know how experienced you are, and we all know that even the most experienced bowyers can be mistaken on some accounts, but if you want us to believe that your opinions are better than methods developed over decades or centuries you will have to provide a lot more evidence than you have so far. A little practical experience and humility wouldn't hurt either.
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Why would Marc have no way of knowing how the bow would have shot before heating it? All he had to do was shoot it before and after.
I have corrected a sinew backed bow many times with high heat on the belly side.
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Tom, 60 degrees C is 140 F.
Yeah, and temperatures lower than that were sufficient to cause a slip in a glue joint in Adam Karpowicz's bow. JW Halverson said it was fine to use 145⁰F, even +210⁰f.
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Well, the consensus seems to be that a sinew bow will not suffer any significant performance loss at temperatures that may reach into the 100-115 range in the noon time.
Yes, 100-115⁰f ambient temperature is fine. That's not the same thing as the temperature on the bow's surface. Heat the surface of a sinew bow to 115⁰f and you may very well slough the sinew off before you get to full draw.
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it would be easy to test ,, just glue some sinew on scrap and heat it up,, I just dont believe everything I read,,,
I have heated lots of sinew bows to correct them as well,, with no glue failure,,but I guess I didnt get it hot enough,,
I think you would have to have a combination of heat and moisture to make the glue fail, but I am just guessing and only self published,, :)
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Why would Marc have no way of knowing how the bow would have shot before heating it? All he had to do was shoot it before and after.
I have corrected a sinew backed bow many times with high heat on the belly side.
There's no way of knowing now how well the bow would have seasoned up til now. I have heard of too many broken bows around here. I haven't broken a bow in two years after assuming what I now know about heat, glue and RH. These materials are incredibly sensitive to the slightest change in temperature. After about 130⁰f for longer than a few seconds you are no longer affecting their mechanical properties but merely degrading fiber. Hence why so many bows around here go *BANG* at a 20 inch draw despite lengthy efforts to get a single growth ring on the back; whereas I'm bending violated pieces to the shape of a rainbow without experiencing a single lifted splinter. This wood stuff will love you if you just be gentle with the heat.
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Nonsense, Tom. You're talking out of a dark place. Most of the broken bows on here are poorly selected wood made by new guys. Others are by guys pushing the limits.
Wood takes really high heat and Hide glue and sinew can tolerate high temps.
Did you figure out the 60C and 140 F thing out yet?
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Well, the consensus seems to be that a sinew bow will not suffer any significant performance loss at temperatures that may reach into the 100-115 range in the noon time.
Yes, 100-115⁰f ambient temperature is fine. That's not the same thing as the temperature on the bow's surface. Heat the surface of a sinew bow to 115⁰f and you may very well slough the sinew off before you get to full draw.
If the ambient temperature is 115⁰f you can bet your bottom dollar that a bow's surface will be the same if it sends any length of time at that temp, maybe hotter in bright sun. Temperatures equalize. Also, you can't seriously bend wood with ambient temperatures.
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Well, the consensus seems to be that a sinew bow will not suffer any significant performance loss at temperatures that may reach into the 100-115 range in the noon time.
Yes, 100-115⁰f ambient temperature is fine. That's not the same thing as the temperature on the bow's surface. Heat the surface of a sinew bow to 115⁰f and you may very well slough the sinew off before you get to full draw.
If the ambient temperature is 115⁰f you can bet your bottom dollar that a bow's surface will be the same if it sends any length of time at that temp, maybe hotter in bright sun. Temperatures equalize. Also, you can't seriously bend wood with ambient temperatures.
If the bow is never fired with no wind gusts of any kind, like in a hot car, sure.
If there's wind and you're shooting your bow, no way. Wind blows the heat off the bow and keeps it from assuming ambient temperature, as does the release in shooting.
As for bending with ambient temperatures this is probably a more serious bend than anyone here has ever done, it was with less than 60⁰c ambient temperature only. Keep in mind the bent sections are approximately 3 inches long, and quite thick.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrs7k7QP3F0o3CvvNq7WbtG24Vj-NBuIz1YA&usqp=CAU)
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You'll figure out the C and F thing at some point Tom. I hope.
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Yes JW that is a fact. Around 40 - 45 celcius was the temperature used. 105 - 115 f.
During construction of a hornbow when gluing the horn to the core the horn is heated to around 50 celcius. The horn at this point has many sizings coats of thin glue. The heat is to soften the horn so it follows the cores shape perfectly and with less ressitance. Also during tillering the bow can be heated to 50 degrees for correction of twists. Relatively high heat is the primary tool for correcting twists etc on hornbows.....funny how they don't all fall apart :)
The original Ottoman hornbowyers never used those stupid lightbulb boxes, for the obvious reason that lightbulbs and accurate thermometers didn't exist in Turkey until the 20th century, when the art was dead. They are a toy of 21st century morons who call whatever is is they do "Turkish archery". Nobody stores a bow at +105 degress farenheit.
Again you have picked some ill explained section from the internet and that is your 'proof'......
Seriously you know nothing about this stuff and your responses prove it. I for one am not going to waste my time with a troll like you. I have been making these bows for quite a few years now. I KNOW what i'm saying is correct through direct, first hand experience. No cut and pasted quote is going to alter what I KNOW to be the truth. I could go through that section of text and explain what is going on with it but this is the last response you will get from me.
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That wood must be waterlogged, or I'll see the documentation otherwise.
If the bow is never fired in a vacuum with no wind gusts of any kind, sure.
If there's wind and you're shooting your bow, no way. Wind blows the heat off the bow and keeps it from assuming ambient temperature, as does the release in shooting.
First: There is no ambient temperature in a vacuum.
Second: Wind may 'blow off' heat if the temperature of the bow is greater than that of the wind, otherwise the heat will flow from the wind into the bow. This is a basic law of thermodynamics.
Third: The hotboxes the ottomans used where heated with charcoal
Between these, the question about Ferenhite to Celsius, and some other basic blunders, I have to ask what claims to credibility you have.
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Can't say I've ever seen Tom D post anything of his own making. It's always quotes from other sources or pics from online
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That wood must be waterlogged, or I'll see the documentation otherwise.
If the bow is never fired in a vacuum with no wind gusts of any kind, sure.
If there's wind and you're shooting your bow, no way. Wind blows the heat off the bow and keeps it from assuming ambient temperature, as does the release in shooting.
First: There is no ambient temperature in a vacuum.
Second: Wind may 'blow off' heat if the temperature of the bow is greater than that of the wind, otherwise the heat will flow from the wind into the bow. This is a basic law of thermodynamics.
Third: The hotboxes the ottomans used where heated with charcoal
Between these, the question about Ferenhite to Celsius, and some other basic blunders, I have to ask what claims to credibility you have.
Just shut up and stop trying. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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Can't say I've ever seen Tom D post anything of his own making. It's always quotes from other sources or pics from online
That's usually what educated people do. They post material that was authored by experts rather than whatever they think they "know". It's called secondary research.
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Can't say I've ever seen Tom D post anything of his own making. It's always quotes from other sources or pics from online
That's usually what educated people do. They post material that was authored by experts rather than whatever they think they "know". It's called secondary research.
Educated people know the C and F difference though.
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Yes JW that is a fact. Around 40 - 45 celcius was the temperature used. 105 - 115 f.
During construction of a hornbow when gluing the horn to the core the horn is heated to around 50 celcius. The horn at this point has many sizings coats of thin glue. The heat is to soften the horn so it follows the cores shape perfectly and with less ressitance. Also during tillering the bow can be heated to 50 degrees for correction of twists. Relatively high heat is the primary tool for correcting twists etc on hornbows.....funny how they don't all fall apart :)
The original Ottoman hornbowyers never used those stupid lightbulb boxes, for the obvious reason that lightbulbs and accurate thermometers didn't exist in Turkey until the 20th century, when the art was dead. They are a toy of 21st century morons who call whatever is is they do "Turkish archery". Nobody stores a bow at +105 degress farenheit.
Again you have picked some ill explained section from the internet and that is your 'proof'......
Seriously you know nothing about this stuff and your responses prove it. I for one am not going to waste my time with a troll like you. I have been making these bows for quite a few years now. I KNOW what i'm saying is correct through direct, first hand experience. No cut and pasted quote is going to alter what I KNOW to be the truth. I could go through that section of text and explain what is going on with it but this is the last response you will get from me.wl6
Says the guy who actually believes hotboxes are a part of authentic Ottoman archery.
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Can't say I've ever seen Tom D post anything of his own making. It's always quotes from other sources or pics from online
That's usually what educated people do. They post material that was authored by experts rather than whatever they think they "know". It's called secondary research.
Educated people know the C and F difference though.
Ok, please show me where I have erred.
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Can't say I've ever seen Tom D post anything of his own making. It's always quotes from other sources or pics from online
That's usually what educated people do. They post material that was authored by experts rather than whatever they think they "know". It's called secondary research.
Educated people know the C and F difference though.
Ok, please show me where I have erred.
When you used the 60C quote to show "low" heat being used to bend the Scythian replica. Then replaced it with F.
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Can't say I've ever seen Tom D post anything of his own making. It's always quotes from other sources or pics from online
That's usually what educated people do. They post material that was authored by experts rather than whatever they think they "know". It's called secondary research.
Educated people know the C and F difference though.
Ok, please show me where I have erred.
When you used the 60C quote to show "low" heat being used to bend the Scythian replica. Then replaced it with F.
Please show me exactly where I did this with a copied and pasted quote.
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The article by Adam says 60C which is 140f and you then said :" Adam Karpowicz tried to bend a glued up Scythian bow and made sure, using an electric thermometer, that the surface temperature never exceeded 60⁰F. "
You then switch back to 60C but your general thought seems to be that 105 f is the danger point when Adam and others have showed you that the actual danger zone is probably 135-150f maybe even higher if no stress is induced on the glue at that temp.
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The article by Adam says 60C which is 140f and you then said :" Adam Karpowicz tried to bend a glued up Scythian bow and made sure, using an electric thermometer, that the surface temperature never exceeded 60⁰F. "
You then switch back to 60C but your general thought seems to be that 105 f is the danger point when Adam and others have showed you that the actual danger zone is probably 135-150f maybe even higher if no stress is induced on the glue at that temp.
What you quoted is clearly a typo and not a misunderstanding of farenheit and celsius scales.
150⁰f is higher than 60⁰c, which is 140⁰f.
All we can infer is that Adam never let the surface of his bow get above 140⁰f, and a joint still failed.
Furthermore, see the video I posted by JWB. He implores his customers to keep his bows at least 1.5 feet from. a hotplate on setting 4, which is low heat. This would imply temperatures of around 105⁰f, and for very routine de-twisting work that doesn't put a lot of stress on the bow.
You are a madman playing with fire if you think it's safe to expose glue to hotter temperatures than that. There's absolutely no credible sources saying thaf this is OK. The best thing to do is to assume temperatures of 105-110⁰f. Which are clearly all that is necessary for just about anything.
125-139⁰f temperatures upset glue bonds. We have evidence from Adam for that. If the joint failed the glue was softened, period.
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The joint in Adam's bow "slipped" which likely means creeping as hide glue enters the equivalent of glass transition temp in epoxy.
But you are wrong. Clearly the heat tolerance is way higher than you think it is and experienced guys are telling you this.
The video by JWB does not really imply a specific temp but no doubt over 105 is needed to get things moving enough.
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The joint in Adam's bow "slipped" which likely means creeping as hide glue enters the equivalent of glass transition temp in epoxy.
But you are wrong. Clearly the heat tolerance is way higher than you think it is and experienced guys are telling you this.
The video by JWB does not really imply a specific temp but no doubt over 105 is needed to get things moving enough.
Lol, gibberish.
When Adam bent the limb, one of the three laminated pieces literally moved upward by a milimeter or so, creating a measureable "step". That's a bond failure. If it hadn't been sinew wrapped it probably would have separated.
And that's with less than 140⁰f temperature, horizontally transfered. The direction of heat transfer also matters. I bet some of you were putting your bows directly above +150⁰f heat sources. Brutal.
Just turn the stove on to cone 4 and measure the temp 1.5 feet from the coil. It's not hot. These materials are super sensitive to temperature change.
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You were wrong Tom. Stay in your lane.
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Yep, fire is hotter than that.
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Tom, when every thread you post in has a consensus of people saying you are wrong maybe it's time to re-evaluate why that is...
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Tom, when every thread you post in has a consensus of people saying you are wrong maybe it's time to re-evaluate why that is...
That's not correct. Typically, every thread I make has the same simpletons crying about me while 1 or 2 experts verify everything I said. The simpletons then scram back to the darkness and never rear their ugly heads again until the next thread.
That the herd doesn't like it when their superstitions are questioned isn't news to me. The herd is always wrong.
Address the subject matter specifically or GTFO of the thread.
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You were wrong Tom. Stay in your lane.
PatM lied, bows died.
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Yep, fire is hotter than that.
Word to the noobies: you should never, ever put a bow near an unstable heat source like fire. Even literal cavemen like Ishi knew this.
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Can't say I've ever seen Tom D post anything of his own making. It's always quotes from other sources or pics from online
That's usually what educated people do. They post material that was authored by experts rather than whatever they think they "know". It's called secondary research.
You're talking to a number of expert right now.
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Why are we still arguing with this guy, who cares what he thinks? 'The herd' will never be completely correct, but it has done quite well for a long time without this character.
Bownarra, Marc St. Louis, you both have extensive first hand experience with sinew backed bows. At what temperature ferenhite have you found sinew to start losing its strength?
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Why are we still arguing with this guy, who cares what he thinks? 'The herd' will never be completely correct, but it has done quite well for a long time without this character
Not really. Almost every other thread on this forum is "my bow cracked, my bow popped, the fibers in my bow are magnetically opposed to one another"
It's not noobs either, like PatM tried to cope with. There are videos all over YouTube of the "expert" bows detonating.
That's what happens when you treat your bows like a beef skewer.
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I haven't broken a sinew backed bow or a heat treated one. Sounds like you've made neither.
Pretty sure the mods are hovering their finger over the red button next to your name currently.
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Im not sure if what gets posted here is really a true representaion of of all bowmakers in the world,, its just a very small part of what is being made in the world, anything done to excess can damage or break a bow,, heat,, reflex,,overdrawing, bad tiller,,bad wood,, most the time I get the feelig over stressing a design, to reach a predetermined draw, blows alot of bows,, or a combination of several factors,, and most the time inexperience.. lately, keeping bows in very low humidity,, cause its winter,, lots of guys are working with marginal wood to start, because thats all they have, etc etc etc,, you can heat wood to your advantage, ,and when it is done to excess, then it would be pilot error, not the use of heat,, but thats just my thinking on it,,since I love to make bows,,and heat them when needed, maybe it is a superstition,, then I would be superstitious,, I blow sage smoke on my bows too,,and do other secret things that I dont speak of,, (-S
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The master has failed more times than the beginner has tried.
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I haven't broken a sinew backed bow or a heat treated one.
Lies.
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RyanY,, wow such a great quote,, thanks for posting,, :)
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Pretty sure the mods are hovering their finger over the red button next to your name currently.
"You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you."– Eric Hoffer
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"You can learn a lot about the experience of a person if you've ever seen an example of their work".
Me
lol
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im getting ready to put the butane torch to some sinew on a scrap piece of wood,, will post results and pics later,, :)
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ok this is just a test piece of osage with sinew glued with hide glue,, just doing a bit of heat testing,,its not very scientific and keep in mind,, I did write a couple of articles for Primitive Archery, so Im kinda published,, right???
I made the hide glue myself from rawhide scraps and it seems as good as the stuff I buy,, and holding up pretty good so far,,enjoy,, ;D
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Got to be some knowledge coming out of that test right there...
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I haven't broken a sinew backed bow or a heat treated one. Sounds like you've made neither.
Pretty sure the mods are hovering their finger over the red button next to your name currently.
Needs to happen imo. Information on any site like this will never be totally correct, and a good deal will be regurgitated info. That is very different than spewing bs for the sole purpose of stirring the pot. New bowyers look to this site for help and direction, Many of which never getting an account or making a post. Blatantly false bs is detrimental to what I believe this site to be. Valid arguments with actual first hand experience, or even “research” that extends beyond hand picked snippets to prove a point is good and helps our knowledge grow. Stirring the pot for the sake of being different is very different. The knowledge pool will be better with this nonsense culled.
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https://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/Scythian_bow_ATARN.pdf
The core's back was made round as the original's, scraped smooth, lightly
grooved, well sized with glue and the limbs backed with sinew (soaked in 25%
glue) over the (future) deflexed sections. This backing was done before bending
the mid-limbs for the added security. The sinew did not need to be applied in the
final thickness at this time. Since the heat required for bending could cause
delamination of the limbs, the entire mid-limb section was then bound with
sinew.[/b]
The ambient humidity should be no less than about 60%RH for the materials to
have sufficient moisture content for bending. The 60%RH represents moderately
humid conditions, which would likely be encountered in a human-occupied tent
even in a dry climate of Central Asia, perhaps augmented by a pot with boiling water.
The sections were exposed to slow heat, making sure the surface temperature did not exceed 60⁰c, for about 1 hour. Then the limbs were bent over pre-made formers (similar to the Turkish tepeliks for the replica). The forces needed to flex the core were not excessive at all. The pressure was maintained until the curvature exceeded the desired profile to account for spring-back. Since the bow‟s core, unlike in the finished bow, was wider than thicker at this stage and the bending was done in the plane perpendicular to the greater dimension of the laminated limb, no problems with limb twist was encountered and the limbs remained perfectly aligned. After the limbs had cooled, the sinew binding was removed, leaving the sinew backing in place. There was some slippage of the parts at one of the wood splices within the core, now visible on the belly. It did not, however, weaken the limb in any way and the splice held well. Interestingly, on the original bow's back, a small step was found at the location of one of the splices where the parts joined. If the step was caused by the slippage at the splice, it indicates the original bow could indeed be heat-bent after the core was laminated together, following the same methods as in the replica, with the slip under the sinew left unseen by the bowyer and never corrected. There is no doubt this method was the most logical and practical for the bowyer to force the limbs into the permanent deflex.
3:50 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6AUq6f5SD8
This is the part where JW Halverson publicly apologizes to me for his barbaric arrogance and stupidity.
You have gone too far. I demand an apology from you for your insults. You have never once posted a lick of your work, and recently have become nothing but a thorn in the side of this entire community.
Furthermore, I am calling you out publicly. Post your work or shut up.
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Post your work or shut up.
+1
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I guess all those world record holders didn't know what they were doing when they set their bows in the full sun to get hot in the Salt flats before the competition. Weird.
And I guess I was clueless when I get treated the bow that set a new world record. Man I wish I'd have met Tom before hand!
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He's been warned and a record of the warning logged. Next time he will be banned
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Hey Tom, I set a world record using the very methods you scream about. I challenge you to come to the salt flats and prove your points.
You keep telling people to shut up they are wrong and they have no idea what they are talking about. You demand a breakdown of the logic they use to inform you that you are incorrect, but don't return those expectations to them. All you say is they don't know what they are talking about. Here lemme teach you a new phrase. It goes like this: "I have no idea what you are talking about." You should repeat that over and over until your light comes on.
You said you haven't broke a bow in two years. I guess thats probably like my perfect golf score. You don't build bows and I dont play golf.
You limit reality to the confines of your ability to understand and lemme tell ya, you live in a small world.
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He's been warned and a record of the warning logged. Next time he will be banned
Next time..... when does "this" time end?
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There was some slippage of the parts at one of the wood splices within the core, now visible on the belly. It did not, however, weaken the limb in any way and the splice held well. Interestingly, on the original bow's back, a small step was found at the location of one of the splices where the parts joined. If the step was caused by the slippage at the splice, it indicates the original bow could indeed be heat-bent after the core was laminated together, following the same methods as in the replica, with the slip under the sinew left unseen by the bowyer and never corrected. There is no doubt this method was the most logical and practical for the bowyer to force the limbs into the permanent deflex.
Doesn't this mean that the bow was fine after the heat treat, meaning that Tom is more or less contradicting himself? What is his stance anyway?
I've noticed that no one has differentiated between hide glue, epoxy, and wood glue in this thread. They would all behave differently at high temps, right?
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Yes. They all have different heat tolerance. Formulation of epoxy can radically raise heat tolerance as well as post curing at higher temps.
Here's a link to a an experiment on heating glue. close the gap[ after www
http://www .frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/GlueTest/gluetest.html
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There was some slippage of the parts at one of the wood splices within the core, now visible on the belly. It did not, however, weaken the limb in any way and the splice held well. Interestingly, on the original bow's back, a small step was found at the location of one of the splices where the parts joined. If the step was caused by the slippage at the splice, it indicates the original bow could indeed be heat-bent after the core was laminated together, following the same methods as in the replica, with the slip under the sinew left unseen by the bowyer and never corrected. There is no doubt this method was the most logical and practical for the bowyer to force the limbs into the permanent deflex.
Doesn't this mean that the bow was fine after the heat treat, meaning that Tom is more or less contradicting himself? What is his stance anyway?
I've noticed that no one has differentiated between hide glue, epoxy, and wood glue in this thread. They would all behave differently at high temps, right?
The bow was fine in that case, but my point is that the joint slipped at less than 140⁰f, so the idea that hide glue is unfazed by even higher temperatures is wrong. And yeah I'm talking about hide glue.
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He was bending it severely to permanently change the shape at that temp. The glue was able to undergo plastic deformation and return to normal when cool. That is unfazed.
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I guess all those world record holders didn't know what they were doing when they set their bows in the full sun to get hot in the Salt flats before the competition. Weird.
And I guess I was clueless when I get treated the bow that set a new world record. Man I wish I'd have met Tom before hand!
You are not a world record holder in anything. All of the world records in archery were set in the 1980s and haven't been surpassed since. What you got was a made up "record".
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He was bending it severely to permanently change the shape at that temp. The glue was able to undergo plastic deformation and return to normal when cool. That is unfazed.
It was also sinew wrapped, and also sinew backed, which is what kept the joint from completely failing. Plastic deformation = softened.
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He was bending it severely to permanently change the shape at that temp. The glue was able to undergo plastic deformation and return to normal when cool. That is unfazed.
It was also sinew wrapped, and also sinew backed, which is what kept the joint from completely failing. Plastic deformation = softened.
At near 140. And if that's how they were made, it shows that heat is fine.
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I guess all those world record holders didn't know what they were doing when they set their bows in the full sun to get hot in the Salt flats before the competition. Weird.
And I guess I was clueless when I get treated the bow that set a new world record. Man I wish I'd have met Tom before hand!
You are not a world record holder in anything. All of the world records in archery were set in the 1980s and haven't been surpassed since. What you got was a made up "record".
Thank God you told me! I guess the records should be altered then. So, im genuinely curious. What records were set in the 80s, and why are today's records "made up"?
I mean, I could just say shut up you don't know what you are talking about, but instead ill ask you to prove it.
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https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2019%20US%20Flight%20Archery%20Records%20Detailed.pdf
https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2018-Flight-Records.pdf
https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2020_Flight_Records.pdf
damn... I guess all of this is fake then? I guess since you didnt see it (like all those archeological heat treated bows) they just. Dont. Exist. I guess you cant quote ishi then.
You havn't seen him before.
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A few things apply to you here and as nobody else has told you I will assume the duty.
Two wrongs don't make a right, take your parents as an example.
Now you certainly have a brain, and it has two parts. A left and a right. On the left side of your brain there is nothing right, and on the right side, there is nothing left. Which is why explaining archery to you is like explaining social media to an 80 year old. The way to talk to people on here is very uncouth, it makes me believe the bacteria in your gut is the only culture you have. Its as if your family tree were a cactus, thats why you are such a prick. Lucky for you stupidity isn't a crime, so you are free to go. But stick around, they say laughter is the best medicine, your comments could cure covid! I do wonder, is your butt jealous of all the crap that comes out if your mouth? You do make me jealous though... of all the people who haven't met you.
ANYWAYS......
Id further engage in this mental combat with you but im afraid you are unarmed.
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https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2019%20US%20Flight%20Archery%20Records%20Detailed.pdf
https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2018-Flight-Records.pdf
https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2020_Flight_Records.pdf
damn... I guess all of this is fake then? I guess since you didnt see it (like all those archeological heat treated bows) they just. Dont. Exist. I guess you cant quote ishi then.
You havn't seen him before.
Oh lemme try!
Ishi was a runaway circus freak who was used to sell white man's ideas of archery. Anything he knew about archery was taught to him from the white man and was wrong.
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A few things apply to you here and as nobody else has told you I will assume the duty.
Two wrongs don't make a right, take your parents as an example.
Now you certainly have a brain, and it has two parts. A left and a right. On the left side of your brain there is nothing right, and on the right side, there is nothing left. Which is why explaining archery to you is like explaining social media to an 80 year old. The way to talk to people on here is very uncouth, it makes me believe the bacteria in your gut is the only culture you have. Its as if your family tree were a cactus, thats why you are such a prick. Lucky for you stupidity isn't a crime, so you are free to go. But stick around, they say laughter is the best medicine, your comments could cure covid! I do wonder, is your butt jealous of all the crap that comes out if your mouth? You do make me jealous though... of all the people who haven't met you.
ANYWAYS......
Id further engage in this mental combat with you but im afraid you are unarmed.
Dang.... that was brutal (lol) (lol)
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A few things apply to you here and as nobody else has told you I will assume the duty.
Two wrongs don't make a right, take your parents as an example.
Now you certainly have a brain, and it has two parts. A left and a right. On the left side of your brain there is nothing right, and on the right side, there is nothing left. Which is why explaining archery to you is like explaining social media to an 80 year old. The way to talk to people on here is very uncouth, it makes me believe the bacteria in your gut is the only culture you have. Its as if your family tree were a cactus, thats why you are such a prick. Lucky for you stupidity isn't a crime, so you are free to go. But stick around, they say laughter is the best medicine, your comments could cure covid! I do wonder, is your butt jealous of all the crap that comes out if your mouth? You do make me jealous though... of all the people who haven't met you.
ANYWAYS......
Id further engage in this mental combat with you but im afraid you are unarmed.
This is offensive to 80 year olds. (lol)
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A few things apply to you here and as nobody else has told you I will assume the duty.
Two wrongs don't make a right, take your parents as an example.
Now you certainly have a brain, and it has two parts. A left and a right. On the left side of your brain there is nothing right, and on the right side, there is nothing left. Which is why explaining archery to you is like explaining social media to an 80 year old. The way to talk to people on here is very uncouth, it makes me believe the bacteria in your gut is the only culture you have. Its as if your family tree were a cactus, thats why you are such a prick. Lucky for you stupidity isn't a crime, so you are free to go. But stick around, they say laughter is the best medicine, your comments could cure covid! I do wonder, is your butt jealous of all the crap that comes out if your mouth? You do make me jealous though... of all the people who haven't met you.
ANYWAYS......
Id further engage in this mental combat with you but im afraid you are unarmed.
Dang.... that was brutal (lol) (lol)
Well, what do you expect? This guys got the personality of 60 grit sandpaper! Very abrasive.
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I guess all those world record holders didn't know what they were doing when they set their bows in the full sun to get hot in the Salt flats before the competition. Weird.
And I guess I was clueless when I get treated the bow that set a new world record. Man I wish I'd have met Tom before hand!
You are not a world record holder in anything. All of the world records in archery were set in the 1980s and haven't been surpassed since. What you got was a made up "record".
Thank God you told me! I guess the records should be altered then. So, im genuinely curious. What records were set in the 80s, and why are today's records "made up"?
I mean, I could just say shut up you don't know what you are talking about, but instead ill ask you to prove it.
Well said Sleek.
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A few things apply to you here and as nobody else has told you I will assume the duty.
Two wrongs don't make a right, take your parents as an example.
Now you certainly have a brain, and it has two parts. A left and a right. On the left side of your brain there is nothing right, and on the right side, there is nothing left. Which is why explaining archery to you is like explaining social media to an 80 year old. The way to talk to people on here is very uncouth, it makes me believe the bacteria in your gut is the only culture you have. Its as if your family tree were a cactus, thats why you are such a prick. Lucky for you stupidity isn't a crime, so you are free to go. But stick around, they say laughter is the best medicine, your comments could cure covid! I do wonder, is your butt jealous of all the crap that comes out if your mouth? You do make me jealous though... of all the people who haven't met you.
ANYWAYS......
Id further engage in this mental combat with you but im afraid you are unarmed.
Good Grief, I though your bows where scorchers :o
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https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2019%20US%20Flight%20Archery%20Records%20Detailed.pdf
https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2018-Flight-Records.pdf
https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2020_Flight_Records.pdf
damn... I guess all of this is fake then? I guess since you didnt see it (like all those archeological heat treated bows) they just. Dont. Exist. I guess you cant quote ishi then.
You havn't seen him before.
Yes, this is all fake. None of these records are recognized by anyone other than USflightarchery.com. Anyone can start their own federation and list their own "records". But open up independent, world renowned sources (like the Guinness Book of World Records), and you'll see that none of these "records" are anywhere to be found. Same with powerlifting, jump rope, pogo stick, and other sports with no regulation. They have all kinds of difcerent federations boasting different "records". What matters is what the real authorities on records had to say. They all say the records haven't been beaten since the 1980s.
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Who are the real authorities?
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so its not real because... it not under the right federation....
well i guess china isnt real because its not under the US government.
Your too worried about facts you can look up online than what has actually been done and can be done!
is a world record more about the title, or is it more about the fact that its been done?
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https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2019%20US%20Flight%20Archery%20Records%20Detailed.pdf
https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2018-Flight-Records.pdf
https://www.usflightarchery.com/pdf/2020_Flight_Records.pdf
damn... I guess all of this is fake then? I guess since you didnt see it (like all those archeological heat treated bows) they just. Dont. Exist. I guess you cant quote ishi then.
You havn't seen him before.
Yes, this is all fake. None of these records are recognized by anyone other than USflightarchery.com. Anyone can start their own federation and list their own "records". But open up independent, world renowned sources (like the Guinness Book of World Records), and you'll see that none of these "records" are anywhere to be found. Same with powerlifting, jump rope, pogo stick, and other sports with no regulation. They have all kinds of difcerent federations boasting different "records". What matters is what the real authorities on records had to say. They all say the records haven't been beaten since the 1980s.
The same argument you’re making against USA flight archery could be used against any other organization. It’s laughable that you use Guinness book of world records as an example since it’s well known that it’s no true authority for many records. Just a money making scheme to sell their books. (lol) If people want to break those records then they can show up. The ones that care, do!
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WOW. This is an incredibly amusing debate.
Next time..... when does "this" time end?
Might be sooner than later
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WOW. This is an incredibly amusing debate.
Next time..... when does "this" time end?
Might be sooner than later
I vote for now.
This community has suffered enough from this inexperienced troll with absolutely no benefit to balance it out. I have reviewed his "body of work" here and he has never posted anything he has done. If he is here to learn, he does not seem capable of doing so, in fact, he is more likely to muddy the waters such that persons seeking to ask honest questions get lost in Tom's need for drama.
As I said, I weary of the community bearing the cost and reaping no benefit. He has been allowed to flourish here, whereas if he tried any of this in person his future dietary needs would have to be met by nothing stronger than broth and gravy.
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Hold On JW, im having fun :) You should read one page back :D Also, since he respects the book of world records, im gonna submit my record to them. Just to put some salt in his ego. That ego is so inflated a guy would need a parachute to jump from it to reach his IQ.
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Hold On JW, im having fun :) You should read one page back :D Also, since he respects the book of world records, im gonna submit my record to them. Just to put some salt in his ego. That ego is so inflated a guy would need a parachute to jump from it to reach his IQ.
Oh my gosh (lol)
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Hold On JW, im having fun :) You should read one page back :D Also, since he respects the book of world records, im gonna submit my record to them. Just to put some salt in his ego. That ego is so inflated a guy would need a parachute to jump from it to reach his IQ.
You are coming out with some good one :OK. Too bad I had to ban him (lol)
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Hold On JW, im having fun :) You should read one page back :D Also, since he respects the book of world records, im gonna submit my record to them. Just to put some salt in his ego. That ego is so inflated a guy would need a parachute to jump from it to reach his IQ.
You are coming out with some good one :OK. Too bad I had to ban him (lol)
Pity, now how am I going to spend my Thursday?
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Building bows? :BB
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Id like to, but im building parts for the B52 bomber all day...
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thank you Marc,,
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thank you Marc,,
Ditto.
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Wonder if he will just re-register as a new user and come back? He strikes me as the type of fellow to do such.
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Perhaps the simplest way to answer the original question is to measure the temperature at which dry hide glue melts.
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that sounds very reasonable,,
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I don’t even think you have to measure the melting point. Just when the hide glue gets soft enough to slip and move and so forth.
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Bind two pieces of wood with hide glue and put an alignment mark. Attach a hook to each end and a scale. Start pulling. increase the temp of them using a heat lamp or some electric oven until they slip under x amount of pressure.
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Good point Deerhunter.
I don't think the lamp would heat the glue line uniformly.
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Good point Deerhunter.
I don't think the lamp would heat the glue line uniformly.
Use two thin strips and a laser thermometer. They don't need to be big thick strips.
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hide glue gels at first and can be easily reformed with gentle heat. as it looses moisture, it is said to dry, and becomes more brittle.
not sure if there is a clear transition between gel and dry, maybe just a moisture content thing, as it can be softened again by wetting
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It needs heat to get back to gel stage after wetting. If you soak glue granules they do not gel just from moisture.
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Perhaps two strips of wood 12 inches long, each an eight inch thick. Glue them together with hide glue and allow to cure for a month or more.
Heat in an oven to desired temp, then bend?
Frankly, with my experience in leaving sinew backed bows in vehicles in the sun, if this is fully cured, you are not going to see much of anything happening.
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Thats where I been leaving my most recent sinew bow. Sitting on the dash.
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heres my question, is hide glue easier to seperate by using a sheering force (up and down) or pulling the two glued pieces straight away from each other?
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heres my question, is hide glue easier to seperate by using a sheering force (up and down) or pulling the two glued pieces straight away from each other?
http://www.wag-aic.org/1990/WAG_90_buck.pdf
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From PatM's attachement
"This is particularly pertinent given that liquid hide glue is not recommended for conditions of display or storage where the RH regularly exceeds 70%."
Some might say "obviously", but this post really answered some questions about a what a primitive bow for Arizona's summer season might look like. The high heat seems to be a non-issue. Good.
The possibility of constant afternoon storms, followed by wet, humid nights, is another issue.
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Yes. Looks like they showed weakening after being kept in overly moist or extremely hot and dry conditions for over a month.
They then tested the samples without allowing them to change at all.
I'd be curious to know if strength would rise in the 150f samples if they were allowed to regain some moisture. They must have been near 0%.
Moral is don't leave your bow in the car for a month straight at 150f.
Otherwise, your bow will be fine.
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StickMark,, I have found painting the whole bow,, so there are no edges for moisture to get in,, seems to resist rain storms even in warmer conditions,,