Author Topic: flemish fits  (Read 6704 times)

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Offline Frode

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flemish fits
« on: November 27, 2010, 03:16:35 pm »
Hi all,
I've been learning to make my own strings, and it's not as complicated as I thought it might be (I slept through the cordage part of Scouts, too), but...
When tying Flemish loops, all goes well, and the result looks like store bought, but except for a couple, after stringing and pulling a bit, the tails unwind!
I think everything is long enough, and it all seems nice and tight when it's finished up, but  ??? ??? ???
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Frode

If it doesn't rap the lintel, it might not be a longbow.

Offline Kitsu

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2010, 03:23:32 pm »
Hi all,
I've been learning to make my own strings, and it's not as complicated as I thought it might be (I slept through the cordage part of Scouts, too), but...
When tying Flemish loops, all goes well, and the result looks like store bought, but except for a couple, after stringing and pulling a bit, the tails unwind!
I think everything is long enough, and it all seems nice and tight when it's finished up, but  ??? ??? ???
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Frode



have you waxed it beforehand? that could be why it keeps coming undone, just a thought
"If you open your mind for me
You won't rely on open eyes to see
The walls you build within come tumbling down
And a new world will begin" ----- Queensryche, "Silent Lucidity

R.H , Southeastern PA/Western PA.

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2010, 03:38:15 pm »
I would much rather show you than try to explain this, but I don't think you want to drive to Rapid City South Dakota just to make a bowstring (but if you do we can go hunt pheasants afterwards).

Here goes.  The loop looks fantastic, but the tails should look just like the loop.  In the photo your upper tail has the green wrapping around the black and the lower tail has the black wrapping around the green.  When one of the sets of strands wraps around the other then only one set of the strands is working and the other isn't getting pulled tight to lock it all together.  Both sets of strands has to be equally twisted together.

Once you have the loop formed, pull both the green strands and the glack strands straight  - undo all the twist.  Then lay the tag ends against one or the other strands, do the same with the other and plait the two just like you did when you made the loop.  Clear as mud?
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline bryan irwin

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2010, 03:42:04 pm »
yea thats what i see and make sure you twist the ends the same direction .
bryan irwin

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 03:56:04 pm »
Make your string kinda reverse wrapped. Don't worry about everyone saying reverse wrap is bad for bow strings, if you do it this way it's fine. The problem with reverse wrap is really reverse wrapping strings that were reverse wrapped to begin with. That will always fail. Anyway, take  your plys you are going to make a string with and divide into two bundles. Wax each individual string up and down once with some kind of wax like beeswax. (This is important too). Only once up and down or it will build up and look bad. You don't have to twist the plys that much, but it's not that bad to give it some twist. I use 10# -15# breaking strength linen thread for mine. Eight plys for a 50# string do the job. I even use eight plys for up to 70# bows sometimes. You have to reverse wrap em a bit because if you dont the loop won't hold as good. I mean opposed to just the strings around each other. But you could I guess just twist the plys around each other, I see guys do it, I just have tried it and have had better results giving it a bit of a reverse wrap.

HERES THE PART THATS MAKING IT COME UNDONE

Take the string after the plys are wrapped around each other a bit, and make a loop with about a inch and a half or so extra left over after the loop. Unwrap the two plys right below the loop on the part that is the main string and hold somehow,  I use my big toe, ( :) ), and also unwrap the little bit of extra ply hanging off after the loop. Now look at the direction the plys are wrapped around each other. This is what I'm talking about. What you have to do is to unwrap the extra ply that is the main string about a inch and a half, and the extra plys left over from the loop, unwrap em back to the 2 plays they were before, and wrap one play from the hanging extra around the main string play that is unwrapped. And then the other. But you wrap them in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION that the plys are wrapped around each other. This makes a strong loop, as it basically makes the string reverse wrapped around it's self when you wrap em back up, form the tension of where you initially reverse wrapped (or slightly twsited, whatever, :) ). Your wrapping the plys around each other in the direction they were twisted, wo they twist back in the opposite direction and hold well. If you wrap it the same direction as the plys are twisted in will come undone automatically. I can see in your photo that you wrapped it in the same direction as your plys are twisted. All you have to do to make it stay is wrap em in the opposite direction. Was that confusing? It sounded so to me when typing it,... lol  



« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 04:02:22 pm by toomanyknots »
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline NTD

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 04:27:39 pm »
What JW said! ;D
Nate Danforth

Lombard

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 06:35:26 pm »
Search You Tube for Flemish twist sting. See it done correctly, and it will no doubt be a breeze for you from there. Or go to 3Rivers and buy Doing the Twist.

Offline adb

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2010, 07:30:27 pm »
It also looks to me like your tension is uneven. The green has less twist than the black, and I also think you need more wax. I use bees wax for twisting the loops, and regular string wax for smoothing out the fuzzies.

Offline Frode

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2010, 08:17:13 pm »
OK.  This hurts my head.  Seriously, though, thanks for all the responses!  If I can pick it up and do it with my own two hands, I get it.  When I read it, I usually have to reread several times, when it comes to knots and cords and such.
@Hawkeyes and Bryan, This is B-50, waxed, but it sounds like I should have waxed it a little more?  It does seem like it became un-waxy pretty quick as I worked it.
Then, tension on the tails needs to even out...
@JW and toomanyknots and adb, I think I see what you're saying, I'm going to have to twist a few tonight to get it to click.  :-\  I wonder if I balled it up by trying to twist the tags too tightly, instead of just guaranteeing that they wrapped evenly...
@NTD, You mean the twisting or the pheasant hunting?  Right about now the pheasants sound better  :D.
@Lombard, Good advice, seeing is understanding.

OK, here goes nuttin...

Thanks,
Frode
If it doesn't rap the lintel, it might not be a longbow.

Offline Frode

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2010, 08:30:23 pm »
By the way, the other end of this string was a timber hitch, and it worked fine!  Which I guess I knew would be the case, but it sure didn't look like a few twists around the loop could hold that much force.  Huh.

Frode
If it doesn't rap the lintel, it might not be a longbow.

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2010, 09:48:01 pm »
"I wonder if I balled it up by trying to twist the tags too tightly, instead of just guaranteeing that they wrapped evenly..."

Naw, just twist the extras (or tails) around em in the opposite direction that you did. It will work fine. Try it. I don't give a hoot what anybody says. I'm made probably a thousand of em. Never broke one or had one come out once. I don't care what anybody says. And give your main string a bit more twist before you do that.
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Cameroo

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2010, 10:08:18 pm »
Hey Frode, if you aren't sick of reading yet, here's my 2 cents...

It looks like you tried to do the flemish twist when you combined the tag ends of the loop to the main strands, and then flemish twist the two bundles together after.  I made this mistake the first time I made one after watching some crappy youtube video with some guy who didn't know what he was doing.  You end up with a really bulky looking string where the ends combine.

When your loop is done and you fold the tag ends over onto the main bundles, immediately start twisting the two bundles the same as you did for the loop.  Don't twist the tag end separately.  I hope this makes sense.  If you hate reading and would rather see it done, I put a link to a good video in the how-to section of the forum a few weeks ago.  Check that out.

Also, after you have both loops done, make sure you twist the string an additional 15-20 times before you put a whole bunch of tension on it.  This will keep the ends from untwisting. At least that's what I do.  Then I'll put it on the bow, brace it, wax it, and then rub a piece of leather up and down the string to warm up the beeswax a bit and work it in.

Offline michbowguy

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2010, 02:45:15 am »
go check out my flemish how to on my you tube page.
super easy,no jig.

search.... michbowguy

HatchA

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2010, 10:11:58 am »
I got my hands on "doin' the twist" (as mentioned by Lombard) and the four strings I made were all fine in construction but the only thing I had trouble with was getting the total length right for the finished string.  I made strings for two osage selfbows, calculating for 3" shorter than the nock to nock length but the brace height was too shallow so I "experimented" a little with making a string 4" shorter and also twisting the string some more.  Both worked fine but the "over-twisted" string has twists about every 5/8's of an inch - it looks and feels fine but is that a little too short to have them?

Offline Frode

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Re: flemish fits
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2010, 12:44:01 pm »
I should have come to you guys first!
@Hatch The one I made that worked, I made four times, and it's wound tighter than an eight day clock!  :P
@michbowguy  Hey!  I've been to your channel many a time, I just never made the connection!  Very good video, I see what I did wrong, now!
@Cameroo  Not at all!  I'll take all the help I can get!  I believe you are right, that is what I tried to do, and it did make a bulky end of a string.  Maybe we saw the same original video.  The link you posted was much clearer, and made more sense.  That tip with the leather sounds good too.  I've just rubbed it in with my fingers, and it never felt like it was working in completely.
@toomanyknots Yup, I see it now!  Takes a couple of throws, sometimes  ;D.

I'll post a success story soon!

Thanks,
Frode
If it doesn't rap the lintel, it might not be a longbow.