Author Topic: Bannerstone Discussion  (Read 28559 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Onebowonder

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,495
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2014, 05:34:05 pm »
Thanx ever so much for posting the Kinsella paper.

It's been a while since I read good academic work.  This is good stuff!

OneBow

Offline Buckeye Guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,033
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2014, 07:50:32 am »
I thought it was good also !
May have to do some experiments myself now
Guy Dasher
The Marshall Primitive Archery Rendezvous
Primitive Archery Society
Having  fun
To God be the glory !

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2014, 10:44:21 am »
Thanx ever so much for posting the Kinsella paper.

It's been a while since I read good academic work.  This is good stuff!

OneBow


Are you all talking about the Larry Kinsella paper about bannerstones being
used exclusively for killing whitetail deer??? I can't download the file you posted swampy
but I think I found it through maneyonline.
I'd be glad to make several points about the paper if it is the
"Prehistoric Prey Specific Artifact for Whitetail Deer Hunters"??
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline Onebowonder

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,495
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2014, 11:41:32 am »
Thanx ever so much for posting the Kinsella paper.

It's been a while since I read good academic work.  This is good stuff!

OneBow


Are you all talking about the Larry Kinsella paper about bannerstones being
used exclusively for killing whitetail deer??? I can't download the file you posted swampy
but I think I found it through maneyonline.
I'd be glad to make several points about the paper if it is the
"Prehistoric Prey Specific Artifact for Whitetail Deer Hunters"??
Zuma

Yes - that's the one.  - OneBow

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2014, 03:14:36 pm »
I have thought long and hard about addressing beliefs that winged type
bannerstones were used for hunting. Especially a specific species.
Since there is no hard evidence in the archaeological records of a winged
bannerstone being found on a known atatl shaft. Webb's grave finds of antlers
and bannerstones in a burial mound are still just his speculation.
To me it is just such rumor that can start a train of misguided thinking.
The original use of banners was documented as ceremonial. This should
still be a big consideration. Although the fact that bannerstones are as likely
to be found in refuse pits and graves of women and children.
The forests of the Archaic time period were boreal, totally un -cut mature forests
 with a light blocking canopy. These forest were not the domain of white tailed
deer. More of an elk habitat. Elk inhabited nearly the entire US and it would be
hard to think hunters wouldn't at least attempt to kill them with atatls with similar
tactics employed for deer hunting. Not to mention Moose, seals, Manatee,
javelina, wolf, beaver and what not.
I think there are a multitude of arguments about using drilled stone on atatl shafts.
One very simple one would be to use a dense hard wood weight that would require way less time to craft and also be more durable to boot.
Although I have no archaeological proof that bannerstones were used as drilling aides.I think there are more reasonable possibilities.to contemplate.
I am still amazed about the lack of archaeological record for stone drills and drilling. I would think that in the year 2014 science could easily reveal
the use of a bannerstone. I guess the modern discipline's are way more to concerned with finding something solid that pre dates Clovis. lol
Zuma   
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline Buckeye Guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,033
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2014, 07:37:25 pm »
Zuma
we await your writings on prehistoric drilling 
Lead the way and others will follow

I am sure there is alot to be rediscovered!
Guy Dasher
The Marshall Primitive Archery Rendezvous
Primitive Archery Society
Having  fun
To God be the glory !

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2014, 11:14:47 pm »
Bucheye,
Thanks for the bump but don't hold your breath. lol
I am presently at a research dead end about drills/drilling
stones in N. America.
Perhaps this winter with a high speed internet connection I can
find some University files that contain info on drills and hopefully
some hints about techniques. Drilling with cane is all I have
found so far.
If you get bored, please see what you can find.
Thanks
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline Buckeye Guy

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,033
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2014, 10:01:41 am »
Bored was last year but it all over now so not much time to look now
Wish you would have brought this up then!
 Hey the thread on AtlAtl books made me think there were a couple of fellows at Flint Ridge selling old university report books on some of the digs do you ever get to the knapin  in the fall that goes on there maybe we can find something there ?
Guy Dasher
The Marshall Primitive Archery Rendezvous
Primitive Archery Society
Having  fun
To God be the glory !

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2014, 09:49:29 pm »
Here are some of my personal finds.
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2014, 10:18:44 pm »
A few more banners. Sorry they are broken.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2014, 10:25:09 pm »
A complete notched and a couple preforms.
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline JackCrafty

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 5,621
  • Sorry Officer, I was just gathering "materials".
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2015, 05:00:44 pm »
OK, I think I've made up my mind on the drilled, winged bannerstone thing:

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,50085.0.html


Zuma, forgive me.  Don't mean to highjack.    :)
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline Zuma

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,324
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2015, 09:35:36 pm »
 No problem at all Patrick:D
I wish I could come up with something more myself.
These stones are a great subject. I have to check out your thread.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline caveman2533

  • Member
  • Posts: 640
  • Steve Nissly
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2015, 11:57:12 pm »
The original use of banners was documented as ceremonial.

curious as to what documents are available to show proof of this statement.

Offline JackCrafty

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 5,621
  • Sorry Officer, I was just gathering "materials".
Re: Bannerstone Discussion
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2015, 12:15:44 am »
In 1916, Clarence B. Moore published his findings from excavations done at Indian Knoll along the Green River in Ohio County, Kentucky. He found several bannerstones in association with antler hooks. From his findings Moore surmised that the bannerstones were net spacers and the hooks were netting needles. Based on Moore's findings Dr. George H. Pepper of the Heye Foundation suggested that the hooks and banner-stones were used in conjunction with each other as hair ornaments.

In 1938, William S. Webb returned to the Green River in Ohio County, Kentucky to conduct excavations at the Chiggerville Site, which was about three miles from Indian Knoll. In burial 44, Webb found a butterfly bannerstone made from what he describes as ferruginous chert and an atlatl hook. Based on Moore's work and his own work here and in Alabama, Webb proposed the theory that bannerstones were used as atlatl (spearthrower) weights placed between a handle and a bone or antler hook. This theory has been widely accepted by professional archaeologists and persists to this day as the most common explanation for the usage of bannerstones.

In 1939, Byron Knoblock published his monumental Bannerstones of the North American Indian. Although Knoblock's theories on antiquity and the evolution of all bannerstone forms from one primary form is dated and probably invalid, his system of placing all bannerstones within a named group is masterful. By studying the lines and planes of bannerstones, Knoblock developed a system of terminology where every bannerstone can be categorized and named. This has been invaluable to collectors and researchers alike due to the fact that we can all "speak the same language" in regards to bannerstones.

 Knoblock stuck with the older theories on the usage of bannerstones. He believed they were ornamental or ceremonial objects. His conclusions were based partly on the fact that certain forms of bannerstones were usually made from exotic and beautiful material, such as ferruginous quartz or highly banded slate. He also felt that the time expended in making bannerstones, coupled with their fragile nature, would certainly negate their usage as utilitarian objects.



Source:  http://arrowheads.com/index.php/forums/atlatl-weights-a-bannerstones/79249-bannerstone-usage-theories
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr