Author Topic: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information  (Read 401758 times)

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Offline ty_in_ND

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4245 on: September 14, 2016, 10:16:29 pm »
Quick update: the right limb is still stiff (and not bending like the left limb), but after scraping at it over the past day, it is starting to "flip over" like the other limb. I should have it looking better soon!
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Offline stuckinthemud

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4246 on: September 15, 2016, 03:10:34 am »
keep it up! :D

Offline ty_in_ND

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4247 on: September 16, 2016, 12:20:09 pm »
So, updates with pics!

I finally managed to get the right limb more even with the left.  However, another problem reared its head.  Here are 3 pics of the bow: 1st is with a tight enough long string that the bow was at a 1/4" brace, 2nd is pulling the bow string so it is under the platform the handle is resting on, and 3rd is the bow at a 10" draw:







So, I did try to flip the tips of the ipe by steam heating it.  It appears the left limb retained the flipped tip well, the right limb... not so much.

Finally, here's the profile of the bow right after unbracing it:



So, I have some ideas about how to proceed from here, but I would like to hear from you guys.  As I see it, my options are (in no particular order):

1) Proceed in tillering the bow and try to weaken the left limb tip in order to get rid of the flip
2) Try to add a flip to the right limb (for a 1:1 ratio, it looks like the Smooth On will start distorting at 163F, so I'm not sure about this option)
3) Knock of 2-3 inches from each end of the bow.  It's a hair over 69" ttt, so I do have a little wiggle room in this area.

If any of these sounds better (or if there's another option available that I can't think of), let me know!  I hope to implement the flip fix in time for my weekend (Sun-Mon) so that I can actually get this thing bending.
"The best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing."

Offline PatM

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4248 on: September 16, 2016, 12:51:49 pm »
I wouldn't be messing with steam/heat and Ipe.  It is not a heat friendly wood. You just need to tiller through the idiosyncrasies of the limbs.

Offline PEARL DRUMS/PEARLY/PD/DRUMS

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4249 on: September 16, 2016, 12:57:41 pm »
Its about time for a low brace so the limbs start pulling in and down, it will change the shape and how they are bending.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline ty_in_ND

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4250 on: September 16, 2016, 01:51:37 pm »
Gotcha.  I will get on to bracing it at a low brace height.

And for the steaming, lesson learned.  I read some people having success with steaming ipe, especially if they made a cut in the ipe and filled the void with a more bend-friendly wood.  I thought with a 1/4" thick piece of wood, it would work.  I wouldn't do it again.
"The best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing."

Offline ty_in_ND

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4251 on: September 16, 2016, 02:03:32 pm »
I managed to get home for my lunch break.  So, for better or worse, here's the low brace pic without any work done to the bow from the last batch of pictures I just posted:

"The best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing."

Offline PatM

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4252 on: September 16, 2016, 03:37:37 pm »
You've overdone the scraping on the stubborn limb without exercising the wood sufficiently between scrapes and now you've got a working hinge in that outer. You're going to have to reduce everywhere else to make that area relatively strong again. That's going to lose you a lot of weight.

Offline ty_in_ND

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4253 on: September 16, 2016, 04:00:28 pm »
Well, at this point, I'll just give it a shot. This one's been a pain from the get go. It's still plenty heavy, so it might yet get close to the goal weight.
"The best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing."

Offline PEARL DRUMS/PEARLY/PD/DRUMS

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4254 on: September 17, 2016, 07:19:44 am »
Its soooooooo much easier to explain and learn in person. Me, you and 2 hours in a shop and that bugger is done. Pats description is exactly what I would say as well. Don't ever be scared to pull on a bow while your building it, to a degree of course. When there are no glaring hinges a bow can be as unbalanced from limb to limb as much as it wants and you can still pull it back to 35-45# to register changes after wood removal. There are times to be timid and times to beat it up a bit! :)


The reason this bow is challenging you is the position of the reflex. Its very early when you look at the unbraced pic. Mid limb or farther out is much better on the wood and your eyes. A certain portion of that reflexed area will not bend, therefore the portion behind it has to do more hence the deflexed head-start you give it. In turn you scrape the apex of your reflex trying to make it move when it should be nearly static. Honestly? Id start another for the swap and then see what you can come up with regarding this one. That area with the hinge is under nearly as much pressure as the fade, so you are going to lose a ton of weight to make that tiller right. Remember you have to do the other to match. Id bet on 15-20#.


And the last of my morning ramblings. You see why I suggested a tighter string? By pulling in and down your week spot shone like a beacon. On a long string its barely noticeable. Id love to teach you floor tiller/to low brace. Its the best for the bow and bowyer. Floor tiller alone is an art.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline ty_in_ND

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4255 on: September 17, 2016, 08:26:34 am »
1st of all, thanks for the straight forward input, PatM.  I was in a rush to get back to work, so I didn't have enough time to run through what happened in the scraping process.

After reflecting on how this bow went, both PatM and Pearl hit the nail on the head as far as not exercising the bow enough while I was working on that right limb.  Also, as Pearl so aptly called it, I was timid when it came to bending the limbs, since that right limb was so wonky.

In all honesty, after I got back to work and started to think about it, I did decide I would begin on a new bow.  I have enough walnut and bamboo to do another trilam and I recently got a couple of 36" long 5/8" thick osage boards from 3rivers that look great and a new ripping blade for the table saw that supposedly has a minimal kerf (I have yet to use it).  So, I was going to start up getting the third bow ready (since that first one with bamboo walnut and osage was going pretty well until that knot) while scraping at the current bow, but after reading Pearl's post (and agreeing 100%), I might as well just put all my effort into getting #3 up and running.

So here are some things I noticed with this bow that set me up for a challenge while I was working on it.  1st of all, I think in the future I will try this wood combination again.  It has a lot of potential, but next time I will start off with a thinner core lam.  I know osage (whether good ol' American osage or the Argentine osage I used) is a bit more dense than other core woods (maple, cherry, walnut, actionboo, etc).  However, since it was going to be a fairly long bow, I thought using the same dimensions on the prior bow (3/16" at the fade to 1/16" at the tip taper) would suffice.  I'm pretty sure I'll be starting no thicker than 1/8" next time.  As I stated earlier, I shouldn't have tried to flip the ipe.  As Pearl pointed out, I also did notice the reflex position of the bow was different from the last bow.  In my haste to try to get the current bow ready, I did place the reflex a bit too close to the fades to my liking.  I was hoping for a mid-limb (like the 1st trilam), but I thought I would proceed since the reflex wasn't in a really really bad spot.  And, as previously stated in this post, the lack of exercising the limbs.  I'm not sure why I got so defensive in my exercising, as I didn't have that mentality on the 1st bow, but I will differ to that limb throwing me for a loop (in addition to being so far behind in the trade has added a little bit of stress as well, making me a little more hasty than I should have been).

I'm also not going to give up on this bow.  If worse comes to worse, I can remove the ipe completely, thin the osage, put on a new belly, and maybe see what happens if I were to place it on the form with putting the reflex in midlimb.  I actually think what is most likely to happen is this:  I can shorten the tips at some point (I don't know if now would be as good of time with that hinge in the right limb) which would get the reflex closer to being in the middle of the limb and add some weight to the bow (I'd most likely take it down to 63" ttt).  It could still make a nice 40-50# @ 27-28" bow at those dimensions.  The more I think about it, the more I think that is what I'll end up doing (if for no other reason than to see what happens!).

And maybe someday I'll be able to get out and meet some experienced bowyer for a lesson or two.  I know I've done a ton of reading, but there's something about talking through it in person that just can't be replaced.  I just need to convince the wife there's a reason to get to wherever there at!

Finally, thank you all for being so helpful!  I'm not going to toss in the towel on this one.  And even though I feel extremely bad about how late this is going, on this next bow I will not rush it when I do get a chance to do work on it.  I think, though, I will start a new thread (as suggested by Jeff) and I'll post the final product before shipping it out here so that there will at least be closure to this otherwise very successful trade.
"The best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing."

Offline PEARL DRUMS/PEARLY/PD/DRUMS

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Re: 2016 Primitive Archer Bow Trade Sign up and Information
« Reply #4256 on: September 17, 2016, 08:34:06 am »
Move that reflex out about 8-10" and exercise it more, that next one will come easy. Its damn hard to see and read tiller with reflex so early. 
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.