Author Topic: Grain orientation on stave  (Read 24043 times)

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Offline Bob W.

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2017, 11:07:33 am »
Come now Ruddy you can do it, we are watching and waiting. In all seriousness I think you have a good handle on it with a lot of excellent guidance to boot!

Ruddy Darter

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2017, 11:35:23 am »
OK  :D, I've got a spot of decorating to do for someone, and get some archery in,  and that'll give me a break and a think about what I need to do. I'm at a stage that needs pondering and I'm being a little impatient and in danger of messing it up. I'm at a good stage and shouldn't be in a rush. I'll set up my steamer for its first outing and try and tweak the alignment, maybe take a little twist out, over the weekend, (my cheap rubbish heat gun packed up) .
Thanks Bob W. for the encouragment,  8) I'll carry on with this bow. The longer I take the better seasoned my other yew and ash staves will be too.

 R.D.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 12:11:45 pm by Ruddy Darter »

Offline WillS

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2017, 12:28:20 pm »
It's possible that you're being too cautious and hanging around on a long string for a bit too long.  The long string, early tillering stage is really only to check that nothing crazy will happen when you brace it.  At the heavier weights, it's far better for the bow and far easier for the bowyer to get it up to a full brace as soon as possible. 

As an example - in an ideal world you'd take your roughed out bow (which should be virtually finished before it's even seen a string) and put a tight long string on it, pulling it to about 6" or so.  If there's no horrendous hinge, or one limb isn't wildly stiffer than the other, it's on with the short string at full brace.  That initial brace shape should tell you almost everything you need to know - where the weak spots are, where the stiff spots are, what the string alignment is doing and so on.  You unbrace, sort the issues out, brace it again.  Keep going until that brace shape is perfect - movement in the mid-limbs, nothing happening in the handle and reasonably stiff tips.  That's when it goes onto the tiller and you start working it down to draw length.

Otherwise, with a long string you're being fooled the whole time - the tips will look stiffer than they really are, the middle will look weaker, the string alignment will be off compared to how it will end up and so on.

The only person who knows what that stave wants to do is you, but if you let the long string guide you down weird paths you'll end up having no idea what should be happening, and will start forcing what you want to happen onto the stave. 

Remember that countless bows have been made with HUGE amounts of twist, bend, warp and so on.  Your stave looks really clean and pretty straight considering you opted to follow every little grain movement. 

Ruddy Darter

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2017, 12:57:50 pm »
Thank you WillS for the long string advice, at a push I might be able to get it on a low brace now although I think it would incur some set in places (and flips on to one side a fair bit)   as it's moving nicely throughout the bow, it's got a nice bouncy spring to it. 
I could carry on and remove off one side to steer the twist but I feel I would lose a fair bit of wood and draw weight, although that is a secondary consideration, and the string alignment is offset to the opposite side of the bow hand, which would not be good.
I reckon if I hit it with a spot of steam and tweak it in a better direction I won't need to remove so much wood off or go thin on one side.
I've marked a spot that I'm going to hit that will allow me to slightly de-twist and align in one move. Shouldn't take long and can get that done tomorrow, I'll then leave it be for three days(I think that's the recommended time for wood to recover) and back on tiller. I want to try out my wallpaper steam stripper too.  :D
This the plan in action..   :BB

 R.D.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 01:35:09 pm by Ruddy Darter »

Ruddy Darter

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2017, 07:50:57 am »
Unsuccessful first attempt steaming, slipped under clamps which I failed to notice.
Had another go, didn't bother about the twist and just went for simpler string alignment, so far so good and seems good enough to carry on with. I'll even out some wood and get it back on tiller in 3or4 days. 

 


... That all seems to of worked, I also took the whole bow down a couple of dimensions(may still get 110+) to square it all up and exclude a couple of knots so now have more movement mostly throughout the top limb. I also put on new nocks to get a better angle on them, did a better job but still not great. Put a string on and gave it a little draw and all bending together in the right direction.
Just going to wait until I really feel like continuing, I've had my fill for little a while and I am at a good stage with a good look forward.
Thanks again Bob W. and WillS for not letting me jack it in and for the helpful advice, things are looking a lot rosier.  :)

 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 02:18:39 pm by Ruddy Darter »

Ruddy Darter

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2017, 10:46:04 am »
Just wanting to check, when tillering the bow I have the bow resting dead centre and where on the string should it be drawn, dead centre or an inch up from centre?
(Got it drawing 3 or so inches as it is on a short string but not on any brace, so next visit I'll shimmy it all even and go for brace hight sometime soon).

 R.D.

Offline WillS

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2017, 02:05:59 pm »
I hold it on the tiller dead centre, and pull dead centre and just make sure one limb is a tad stiffer.  Then when it's down to 28" (which is where I stop tillering all my heavy bows) it gets the last bit of checking in the hand, flipping it over a few times and tweaking the hand and arrow positions until everything looks right. 

Everybody does it differently I think, so it's down to what you prefer.  I could never feel comfortable tillering them off-centre, and every time I see somebody post tiller pics where the bow is held somewhere odd it just looks awful to me  :P

Ruddy Darter

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2017, 02:15:05 pm »
Thanks WillS, thought I'd check that, I'll be pulling central on the string then as I'll be using a make do tiller tree on the floor of the garage mostly with no marked backlines for guidance so that makes life easier, and for eye judgement, that's until I start getting somewhere, then I mount the tree in the workbench, otherwise a pain keep swapping around to set up for removing wood.
I really have no idea what weight it will make.

Thanks,

 R.D.

Ruddy Darter

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2017, 09:11:15 am »
Here's where I am, a pic on low brace and a pic on a 10" draw, and the bow after untraced.
Any advice from here appreciated,
 
 R.D.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 09:14:21 am by Ruddy Darter »

Offline WillS

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2017, 09:14:31 am »
From the middle of each limb to the tips they're both waaaaay too stiff.  Get them working much harder! 

Ruddy Darter

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2017, 12:57:38 pm »
Thanks WillS, yep, I've done minimal mid limb out, just got the centre moving now I'll work the mid limbs and outward limbs This is first time on brace and any draw.
Thanks, just happy to of got it on a brace and all moving right direction, and will finish it..but I went a dip too low around a knot and lost a fair bit of depth and I really can't see it making a warbow weight, it will make a lighter bow weight(maybe 60-70) and feels a nice bit of wood so something I will carry on for someone else for their interest. So a success in that respect but I don't think the final bow will be for this forum section, so I'd say an end to this thread on the warbow section and when finished I'll post this bow in the bow section of the forum.
Thanks all, not a disaster,  and I feel I prevailed to a degree knowing it will be a working bow, albeit not a warbow weght,   and have learned a few things and what to watch out for in the future working with this bit of yew. (incase I get lucky and do hit above 80@31 I will post it here).
Thanks again,

 R.D.

Offline Del the cat

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    • Derek Hutchison Native Wood Self Bows
Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2017, 02:46:31 pm »
Dunno if it's one of those optical dillusions ;) but it looks like there is a great thickspot mid limb on each limb.
Run finger and thumb along each limb or check with calipers... see pic red arrows look thick, yellow look thin.
Del
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 02:51:11 pm by Del the cat »
Health warning, these posts may contain traces of nut.

Ruddy Darter

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2017, 03:09:25 pm »
You are right Del to a degree, both limbs need thinning out there, but it also looks more due to slight snaking on both limbs in these areas. Also I haven't rounded off as much there and the light throws a shadow more.  I've mainly been working the centre, I was a little overzealous with the wrong side of my shinto rasp around a knot on the right inner mid limb and caused a slight hinge just under it so I had to go back and reduce the centre, where I lost the warbow potential I reckon :P... Should of been more careful. Oh well... Lighter than intended bow happens.  :D
I will be working these areas next visit. I got to first upgrade to a proper tillering tree system, another cause of mistakes. Make do won't do I found.

 R.D.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 02:15:44 am by Ruddy Darter »

Ruddy Darter

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Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2017, 07:19:53 am »
I've got it to 20" on the tiller, I know I've got to get midlimb out working more, I've been working to get it drawing even to hear and will now work mid-outer limbs together.
I weighed it at 20" and came in a little over 50lbs, does anyone have an idea what possible estimate weight it could make at 31"?
Going to let it rest for a little while, and I've marked where I'm going to next remove wood.

 R.D
(pics removed)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 11:09:03 am by Ruddy Darter »

Offline Del the cat

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    • Derek Hutchison Native Wood Self Bows
Re: Grain orientation on stave
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2017, 09:27:21 am »
About 75# but prob less as you get the outers coming round.
If you are pulling to 50# you are right on track to make a 50# bow as you bring the outers round. That's why I'm forever saying pull it to you target weight from the start.
Del
Health warning, these posts may contain traces of nut.