Author Topic: Flight Arrows  (Read 39506 times)

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Offline Del the cat

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    • Derek Hutchison Native Wood Self Bows
Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2020, 10:12:55 am »
Yeah, I was shooting against hunting bows and was only 20 yds past them. I was getting very poor launch I think. How much can the launch affect the distance? Somehow I just can't see anything that will get me out to 400 yds. Even if I changed a half dozen things that got me 10 yds each I'm still short.
The elusive clean loose can add 30 yards... you can shoot half a dozen arrows and 5 of 'em are within a few paces of each other... you eventually find the other 30 yards on :)
I remember with one disappointing try out session, I was a bout to go home and thought I'd have one more shot... never saw it go and it was way further than my others.  :) (I'd probably stopped worrying and just went for it)
Del
Health warning, these posts may contain traces of nut.

Offline DC

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2020, 11:12:52 am »
Can you bare shaft effectively with no tip weight?

Offline DC

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2020, 01:57:42 pm »
This is very discouraging. I spend the morning making an arrow only to have it break on the first test shot. Fine grained Doug Fir, 55# spine, barrelled, about 8 yds from the target, no tip weight, 50# bow. It seemed to hit the target reasonably straight but it didn't stick in, just split into two pieces. There was some grain run out but the split is 10" long. I would trust a scarf joint 30 times as long as the thickness. How the heck do you guys make flight arrows?

Offline willie

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2020, 02:20:05 pm »
can you describe your target?  you might need to slow the arrow easier.

Offline Badger

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2020, 03:02:27 pm »
 You are not looking for several little things that will get you 10 yards each, this is nothing like bow building, you are looking for one little thing that will get you a 100 yards. If you can see you arrow fly it is most likely a bad shot. I think you need to have your arrows closer to 200 grains and then figure the spine you need. I believe 50# is too much spine regardless of how you say they flew. You can loose a lot of velocity in the first 10 ft which takes about 1/25 of a second. If your bow is close to center shot it would need more spine than 1" deflection at 22 inch centers and 2# weight.

Offline DC

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2020, 04:18:08 pm »
can you describe your target?  you might need to slow the arrow easier.

It's a Bulldog.

You are not looking for several little things that will get you 10 yards each, this is nothing like bow building, you are looking for one little thing that will get you a 100 yards. If you can see you arrow fly it is most likely a bad shot. I think you need to have your arrows closer to 200 grains and then figure the spine you need. I believe 50# is too much spine regardless of how you say they flew. You can loose a lot of velocity in the first 10 ft which takes about 1/25 of a second. If your bow is close to center shot it would need more spine than 1" deflection at 22 inch centers and 2# weight.

This is what's killing me. To get down to 200 grains on a 28" arrow the spine is 30-35#and the arrow flies sideways. I can't get by that. I need a clue and I haven't got one ;)

Offline Badger

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2020, 09:44:15 pm »
  When you say it leaves sideways? Can you see it leave or are you looking at an elongated width on your paper hole?

Offline Badger

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2020, 09:51:19 pm »
  How long are you making your tapered point?? I didn't realize you were using 28" arrows, I was thinking over 24" arrows
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 11:33:27 pm by Badger »

Offline DC

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2020, 11:34:12 am »
  When you say it leaves sideways? Can you see it leave or are you looking at an elongated width on your paper hole?

I can see them flying off sideways. I've abandoned paper testing until I can get somewhere close to good flight. I'll try it again for fine tuning.

  How long are you making your tapered point?? I didn't realize you were using 28" arrows, I was thinking over 24" arrows
I'm using that museum picture of a Turkish arrow only deviding it into 7" sections. Sorry about the confusion, my fault, I've been jumping from pillar to post and expecting you guys to follow me. Yeah I'm trying to get my 50#@28" bow to shoot far ;D When you suggested that I make a 50# bow were you meaning 50#@25"?
Anyway that may explain why I've been so confused.

So, as to making flight arrows for a 50#@28" bow. I know the bow shoots well with 400 grain arrows, 50-55#spine and about 75-100 grain points. If I'm going pointless(there's a joke in there somewhere) using the 5# of spine for every 25 grains of point weight removed rule I should have a spine of 35-40#. That doesn't work. 35# arrows fly like crap. Does the rule get kid of iffy at low tip weights?

So should I make a 50# spine arrow with no tip or fletching and just keep planing it down until it flies well to arrive at a suitable spine and then start thinking about aerodynamics?

Offline willie

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2020, 12:39:36 pm »
Quote
using the 5# of spine for every 25 grains of point weight removed rule I should have ....

this is a rule of thumb for approximating dynamic spine from static spine with hunting weight arrows.

Quote
So should I make a 50# spine arrow with no tip or fletching and just keep planing it down until it flies well

this method seems more reasonable with the extreme weight reduction and tapering going on with these flight arrows

Offline DC

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2020, 12:49:20 pm »
Quote
using the 5# of spine for every 25 grains of point weight removed rule I should have ....

this is a rule of thumb for approximating dynamic spine from static spine with hunting weight arrows.

So you don't think it applies because---

Offline willie

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2020, 02:01:42 pm »
I don't think it is a case of whether it applies or doesn't, I think the rule works better for parallel shafts with a normal range of tip weight, and may be less useful when shafts are tapered and have very minimal tips, minimal fletchings, and you are trying to see how little stiffness (diameter) you can get by with.

Offline Badger

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2020, 03:33:45 pm »
   I have never used any kind of real approach to flight arrows as I was always primarily interested in the broadhead events. In the week before the shoot I would usually make up about 25 arrows or so according to whatever theory I was trying out and then take them out and shoot them, if they didn't work come back next year with something different. My biggest problem was keeping them round because I taper them on a belt sander turning the m by hand. Best I came up with over the years was a slight taper from front to back with the front 3" tapered and a point more rounded and not needle like. Spine on the better ones was usually a good inch of deflection with 2# weight sometimes even more. The arrow I hit 386 with was about 220 grains if I remember right and purple heart. I never had another good shot with that same arrow but it did consistently hit over 300 yards.

Offline DC

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2020, 03:45:09 pm »
How long was the Purpleheart arrow and what was the point weight? That's fixed for broadhead isn't it?

Offline Badger

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Re: Flight Arrows
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2020, 03:50:00 pm »
How long was the Purpleheart arrow and what was the point weight? That's fixed for broadhead isn't it?

 No I was talking flight arrows with no point weight. I usually spine my broadheads at 55# 28" long about 100 grains point weight. I am having some major issues with the broadhead division right now about fletching and arrows.