Author Topic: Oil for smoke poles?  (Read 9124 times)

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Offline Hawkdancer

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2021, 07:08:36 pm »
The mind goes first, I don't remember what is second!  The stuff I referred to as Uncle Ben's is really Gene's Black Powder Gun Seasoning, they are out of Colorado.
Hawkdancer
Life is far too serious to be taken that way!
Jerry

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2021, 11:50:19 pm »
Here is the deal on gun seasoning, on modern steel there is no such a thing, cast iron or wrought iron are open pore and they can hold an oil build up, a cast iron skillet is an example.

The seasoning myth is alive and well and almost all newbies think they need to season their barrel.

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2021, 03:17:31 pm »
Here is the deal on gun seasoning, on modern steel there is no such a thing, cast iron or wrought iron are open pore and they can hold an oil build up, a cast iron skillet is an example.

The seasoning myth is alive and well and almost all newbies think they need to season their barrel.

BINGO!

The way I make the point is to tell them to go home and try to "season" a stainless steel pot.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline Gimlis Ghost

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2021, 03:24:32 am »
Mild pitting, especially if its even all the way down the bore is actually beneficial for muzzle loaders.

Tests run in the early 19th century and confirmed by testing in the early 20th century found that velocity and often accuracy was better from a lightly pitted bore than from a new well finished bore.
The tiny pits allowed bullet lubes to collect forming a sort of near microscopic semi liquid ball bearing unaffected by pressure, reducing friction. The more evenly pitted the better the results.

PS
Never use Ballistol unless you mix it with water. Mixed with water its the best cleansing agent for BP that I've found but without water added its worthless as a cleanser or preservative.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2021, 10:16:26 am »
Not so Mr Ghost, the testing you refer to(which I haven't heard of) would be with a wrought iron barrel which has porous steel, filling the pores with some kind of lube would be possible and have benefits like a seasoned skillet in that type of metal.

On modern steel barrels that are non porous pitting would have no beneficial effects where as a mirror bore would have a bunch of positive things going for it. Pitting holds crud that a mirror bore wouldn't. Pitting holds fowling shot to shot making wiping between shots more necessary. With a mirror bore you may never have to wipe between shots because each loading takes the fowling out of the bore.

You don't have to have pitting to have a rough, hard to load barrel, most rifling bits chatter a bit during the process and leave rough lands and grooves. This is why people lap or refresh their bores to get rid of any roughness because it has so many detrimental effects on shooting. You can lap a barrel or put a couple hundred shots through it to "break it in" or smooth out the roughness.

I have a rifle I put up with Rem-Oil in the bore, I came back 6 months later and found a red potato patch growing in the bore. 6" groups at 50 yards became the norm, bummer.

I decided to get as much of the pitting out of the bore as I could, it was ruin or fix the bore which ever came first. I put Soft Scrub kitchen cleanser on a piece of green Scotch bright pad and started scrubbing the bore. After about 100 strokes  I could see metal on my cleaning patch and was sure I had ruined the bore, a quick check with my endoscope showed that I had rounded off the sides of the lands and removed almost all of the pitting although their was a small bit left near the breech. I followed up the scrubbing procedure with a patch soaked with JB Bore Paste polishing agent and 100 more strokes with my ramrod.

This is what I ended up with, a mirror bore except for a little freckling near the breech.



Then it was off to the range at 50 yards, I was expecting disaster. I pulled my first shot to the left then got down on it, my rifle never grouped this well brand even with the barrel new from Rice and definitely not with a pitted bore.



I have since gone back with the JB bore paste and maliciously polished all my rifles bores as I have found a mirror bore is the best for shooting and the follow up cleaning.

I haunt the Muzzleloader Forum and the American longrifle site, everyone on these sites wants a polished bore, no one wants any pitting.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 12:17:44 am by Eric Krewson »

Offline Hawkdancer

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2021, 03:01:44 pm »
Eric,  where to find the endoscope/borescope for muzzleloaders?  ToW, Gunworks?  That is one item I don't have!  Thanks,
Hawkdancer
Life is far too serious to be taken that way!
Jerry

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2021, 05:51:39 pm »
You can get one to fit your smart phone or PC for $8 off eBay. My first lasted at least 5 years and was crystal clear, it gave up the ghost so got another one that is not as clear but gets the job done. Just search eBay for endoscope.

Here is scope #2, it gives things a brown tone, that is not rust in the TC barrel.


 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 05:56:35 pm by Eric Krewson »

Offline Gimlis Ghost

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2021, 11:10:30 am »
Quote
the testing you refer to(which I haven't heard of)

"Bosworth on the Rifle" 1846, and "Arms and the Man" article date uncertain (possibly 1915), found in NRA reprint years ago.

In recent years some makers of long range cartridge rifle barrels have taken to simulating the seasoned surface of their bores, at least in the grooves, to reduce friction and increase velocity.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2021, 09:11:44 am »
I suspect they are producing a better finished barrel instead infusing lube, Rice Barrel company claims no break-in is necessary with their barrels.

This is from the Rice Barrel website, I suspect Kibler's in house CNC barrels are much the same but I haven't seen one first hand. I do have a Kibler SMR in .32 with a Rice barrel with less than 10 shots through it (my 73 year old eyes can't see the sights). I will get out my endoscope and see if it is slick as Rice claims.

The sight thing is a shame, the rear on my Kibler is too far back and just a blur, I have to wait until I have cataract surgery somewhere down the road before I can accurately shoot the gun.



I have a Lancaster I built with an older Rice Barrel that has a distinct tight spot in the barrel about halfway down.

From Rice;

BORE DIMENSION QUALITY CONTROL

After the rifling has been CUT, a carbide bore-sizing die is pulled through the barrel to insure bore dimension continuity and to eliminate any tight or loose spots inside the barrel. This critical procedure leaves the top of the lands smooth and polished, equaling the traditional lead lapping procedure.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 09:21:21 am by Eric Krewson »

Offline Gimlis Ghost

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2021, 06:04:08 pm »
Quote
BORE DIMENSION QUALITY CONTROL

After the rifling has been CUT, a carbide bore-sizing die is pulled through the barrel to insure bore dimension continuity and to eliminate any tight or loose spots inside the barrel. This critical procedure leaves the top of the lands smooth and polished, equaling the traditional lead lapping procedure.

Sounds like a development of the "Ball Burnishing" method used on some Lithgow made Enfield rifles.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2021, 08:27:34 pm »
I had a MK4, my dad bought it for me when I was 12, at they time they were stacked up like cord wood in the local hardware stores and cost $8 each. I didn't know about corrosive ammo at the time and didn't clean it properly, even with a pitted bore it was amazingly accurate.

I sold it for $20 forty years ago to a newbie deer hunter, I should have held on to it seeing what they for for today.

Offline Gimlis Ghost

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2021, 03:23:05 am »
I suspect that a greasy wax made from Whale Oil was used to lubricate lock works. It was commonly used for clocks.
While Sperm Whale oil is not available these days "Blackfish Oil" made from Pilot Whale blubber is still in use for delicate equipment exposed to deep sub zero cold. In fact it is in use by NASA to lube hinges of various deployable equipment on deep space probes and other space craft.

I once had a small tube of Whale Oil that had been made for use on wind instruments. I was surprised to find it burned with a beautiful clean white flame.

PS
Depending on how processed Whale oil can be thick as grease or thin as oil but in fact its actually a wax rather than an oil.

Offline WoodsmanRanger

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2021, 05:13:00 pm »
Guy told me at the range not to use gun oil on a muzzle loader. He said that the petro chemical based oils react with black powder to form some nasty gunk.

Is there any truth to this?

What oils would you guys recommend for rust prevention?

I use neetsfoot oil.
Here is a link to an article I wrote on my blog on gun oils if you are interested.
https://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2013/04/train-oil-sweet-oil-and-foot-oil-small.html

Regards, Keith.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Oil for smoke poles?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2021, 08:32:55 pm »
The guy told you wrong, for cleaning and lubing it is fine, I use a patch soaked with 10W30 motor oil in my bore between shooting sessions, I do clean it out of the barrel with several dry patches prior to shooting and use a natural oil for patch lube, like olive oil or my favorite, mink oil. I use RIG gun grease in the bore for long time storage.

If you use petroleum based lubes for your patches it will leave some hard black crud in the barrel over time that takes some elbow grease to get out. I think the early TC maxi lube was petroleum based, later they went to what they called "Natural lube". I have two tubes of the older maxi lube, I never liked it, don't know why I keep it.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 08:40:03 pm by Eric Krewson »