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We nead a Chainmail penetration test!

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Yeomanbowman:

--- Quote from: mnewcomb59 on May 15, 2007, 12:33:04 am ---Just a quick question.. Why yew bows? I thought we all agreed that every wood is equal, just have to design it right. I know that would disqualify some woods that need to be made flat and thin from being a "warbow", but why couldn't you do the tests with ipe, massaranduba or another dense wood that has been proven to withstand the 5:8 ratio?


--- End quote ---
If non period woods are used it just adds an unnecessary variable that could negate the validity of any results gained.  It would be hard enough to get mail that is be riveted and from iron let alone use different wood.
It would give some indication but let's not 'tinker' with history if there really is no need.
Jeremy

Len:
A felt or woolen tunic does not constitute padded armour in the sense we were talking about and I stand by my comments that if testing against pre mid 12thC maille then you dont need to construt specfic padded armour for the test. If you think I write like a child then next time I'll try to not talk down to you :)

Rod:
Is this a warbow topic or an English yew bow topic? I will remind you that serious warbows 120lb to 150lb average draw weight for infantry, 90lb to 120lb average draw weight for horseback use, have been used by other cultures.
But who else is presentlly shooting war bow weights? On that basis you might be stuck with The English bow for the time being.
I will also offer the thhought that with properly made maille and the correct quality of supporting garments, the type of head used is also a factor not to be disregarded.
When you shoot at something that represents a properly made aketon over maille it's very different from shooting at maille alone.
Also, penetration. even with the correct head will vary according to the support beneath the garments.
For example, compare penetration of padding on a hard straw boss with penetration on a foam layered field boss.
To get representative results, you are going to have to start dressing up some pig carcasses in the appropriate attire.
FWIW
Rod.

sagitarius boemoru:
"A felt or woolen tunic does not constitute padded armour in the sense we were talking about"

- It serves the same purpose. Think about 1/2´´ thick felt or more. This is not just "woolen tunic".  I find interesting what it can be made with proper rhetoric. Padded chainmail undergarment is not armour of itself. In some parts it actually cannot be thick (arms, ellbows) otherwise the mobility of combatant is severely impaired. Various later sources prescribe how much stuffing shall be used for aketons for them to be considered of good quality and the weights of the quill arent astonishingly high particulary if you take in consideration, that these garments been as long as knee lenght.


"I stand by my comments that if testing against pre mid 12thC maille then you dont need to construt specfic padded armour for the test"

- Stand where you want to. I heard this argument before and it is still stupid. Yes there is no pictorial or direct written evidence. This is hovever also because of heavy stylisation of pictures in the time we are speaking of.
Since romans aparently used it, later in medieval time it was sure used and we have battle records supporting use of padding under chainmail, the assumption they used it is well suported. It is an assumption, but educated one.

You basically place a birth of padded undergarment for chainmail into 12. century and that is a little too bold for my taste.

Sure you must read "The vikings" web often.  :D

J.

Heiner:
Here's more sources for the ahketon between 900 and 1030:

1.) Wargames ResearchGroup Publication, 2nd edition, 1980
Saint Olaf´s Saga records some huscarls wearing jerkins at the battle of Stiklestad in 1030; these were made of reindeer hide and we are told "that no weapon could cut or pierce them any more than they were armour of ring mail, nor even so much"

2.) Osprey Warrior Series 3 (Viking Hersir)
Sturluson, in the Heimskringla, mentions the gift of 13 body armours of reindeer hide to King Olaf the Saint.

3.) Ekkehardi IV (Kap 51), St. Galler Klostergeschichten (Casus sancti Galli) (Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Scriptores rerum Germanicarum in usum scholarum separatim editi LXXV.).Hannover 2002. ISBN 3-7752-5475-7
“As in the year 926 news of the Hungary approaching the monastery St. Gallen spread, the abbott at that time, Engilbert, proved guidance qualities: He ordered an escape castle to be build and weapons and shieds to be improvised. Then he put on a armour under its Kukulle and instructed its brothers to do it equal to him. Thus they made armour from felt materials.”

4.) Byzantinische Waffen, Taxiarchis G. Kolias, Verlag der östereichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Wien 1988, ISBN 3-7001-1471-0
“Beside armamanet, which (...), could cinsist of leather or horn and was alternatively worn to those of iron, there were such strong garbs from felt or wadded, quilted material, which likewise served as armament. (...) Those (Greek word) were thus nothing else as strengthened felt dresses or felt covers, which often also could could withstand a pass or a blow as well. (...) should reach only up to the knees. They had short broad sleeves, (...) they were compound from a mixture from cotton and (obviously inferior) silk, a connection, which was particularly resistant probably particularly because of their thickness. They might have been felted, quilted or wadded.”
This is to be taken from the Tactica (approx. 900) and from further Byzantine works for war guidance.

Credits go to Henry Skodell who researched this when composing the armoury-kitguide for the Franco-Flemish-Contingent.

Sincerely,
Heiner

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