Concealed handguns for teachers

[Buffalogobbler]

Iowabow,
You'll never do it unless you try.
Nothing is 100%, but at least try.
Every body opposed to this idea points this out, but with a plan windows and doors can be secured.
 at colombine and sandy hook, they walked right in the front door carrying thier guns.
Please tell me how would you stop these shootings?
Which is preferable?
Teachers with guns and gunbattles in the classroom with dead children laying all about or stopping them from getting in the building?
If you do not try to stop them from getting in the building are you really protecting the students to the best of your ability?

Kevin

[Buffalogobbler]

I don't think any one solution will solve every incident, and I'm not 100% against arming teachers in some instances, but I do believe that if we don't try to stop them from getting into the building in the first place then we have already failed at the start. And I definately believe that simply putting a guard at the front door might have stopped some of these shootings and might prevent more.

Kevin

[Buckeye Guy]

Okay how about this: "We regret to inform you that your child died today because her teacher shot her after mistaking her for an intruder"

I don't know where you live Guy, but I shoot at facility that is used for training law enforcement officers and they appear to receive very good training. And the claim that most accidental gun shot wounds/deaths in the US are caused by police officers is nonsense.

What's wrong with insisting that the people who we trust with protecting our most valuable possesions receive adequate training? I don't get it...

This is a a large country we live in and very diverse !
In this county The law enforcement officer only has to Qualify at the local Fish and Game club , and the instructor is a local high school teacher !
So I wonder which is more Qualified the teacher or the Officer !
I don't put much stock in rumors , or stats for the country and what may or may not go on , but I do know what is going on here !
I am not opposed to training , but what it may be and who decides what does concern me very much !
The fact that there are all ready way to many laws on the books is very disturbing !
By the way we all ready have teachers carrying guns in our schools !
 This is not a debatable subject around here and we don't see a need for laws to mess with what we are doing !
I am glad you are passionate about the children and protecting them !
We can use all the help that we can get !
 Be kind to one another !
Try to not use definitive statements about folks you don't really know !
Take care my friends !!
Guy

[adb]

I think almost every American that is struggling with this issue is missing the entire point. Owning guns is not a right. In your country, it is... written into your constitution. In my country, it's a privilege... much like owning a vehicle. You have to earn that privilege, and maintain it. No one has the God given right to own whatever firearm they choose.
Until Americans come to grips with this fact, you're going to continue to have mass shootings. Maybe America should look at rewriting it's constitution? The right to bear arms may have had great relevance in 1776, but does it now?

Don't get me wrong... I'm a gun owner. I have multiple guns, including a hand gun. Our gun laws aren't perfect, but they seem to be preventing these issues. NO private citizen has the right to carry a hand gun in my country, concealed or otherwise. We can only use hand guns for target shooting, and I'm OK with that. It's the price I'm willing to pay to avoid the problems you're having.

We've also had our problems with school shootings, but nothing on the scale you're experiencing. Mentally ill is mentally ill, and crazy people will find a way. The difference in Canada is: assault weapons have limited access, and it's very hard to get access to them. They're not everywhere, with easy unlimited access.

For Americans, I think it's about attitude. Your attitude is: it's my right. It's my first line of defense. Everyone has one, I should too. I'm not afraid to use this to solve my problems.
I think until you fundamentally change your attitude towards guns, nothing is going to change... it's only going to get worse. The solution to gun violence is not to add more guns, or put them into the hands of unqualified people (like teachers).

How did the kid that shot up the school get his hands on assault weapons? Why weren't these weapons stored safely, under lock & key? Why did his Mom have assault weapons anyway?

I mean no offense to my neighbours here. You have some serious problems with gun violence. I'm sorry America, you can't have it both ways. You can't continue to have the attitude you have towards guns, without experiencing the problems you have now.

This post is not meant to stir up a shit storm, or offend anyone. I really truly hope America can come to grips with these issues and soon. Innocent lives are being needlessly lost.

[sleek]

Adp, I really had to remind myself that due to our very different back grounds we have very different trains of thought, therfore very different ideas make sence to us. I disagree very strongly with messing with the constitution.

[adb]

Until America changes it's attitude towards guns, you're going to continue to have these problems. In Canada, we play hockey, have fist fights, and drink beer! 

[sleek]

The multiple windows and doors problem can easily be solved with bars across them. I used to live in Miami and those decorative ( use that word very loosely ) bars across windows are all over. You cant get through bars. Try bullet proof windows instead of bullet proof chalk boards. Multiple entrances can be remedied by doors that are locked from the outside. Only can be opened from inside without a key. That way, there is no fire danger. You can just push the door opened normally from inside, but from outside, you must have a key, or go around. The alarm will sound when that door is opened. So no we have windows that cannot be entered at all, one main entrance with multiple guards during pickup/drop off, a guy in a tower ( any of the trained staff can do that on rotating shifts ) and other entrances have been reinforced. Not to mention that the only way into the parking lot is to either scale a brick wall, or jump a gated entrance for the cars and buses during pick up/drop off.

We do need to quit reverse engineering this problem. The threat shouldnt stop in the classroom, it should stop at the main gate. Nothing can stop bombs really, but if i were to build a school the entire place would be built 6 foot underground, any bomb blast from outside would go right over head. Time to re design schools. Its far less costly than redesigning the constitution. Last time that happened, we lost more lives than in any war we have ever been in, combined. We are trying to save lives here, not loose them after all....

[sleek]

ADP, your Canadian, I cant help but like you. Havent met one I dont like, and never did one let me leave sober There is an attitude problem, but its not one that causes people to die. Even if it were an attitude problem, its not guns that make it worse. Lets look at your statement and modify it to reflect recent events.

The solution to pressure cooker violence is not to add more pressure cookers, or put them into the hands of unqualified people (like teachers). Now thats insane. Its not the tool, its the person using it. No if somebody comes at me with a gun, I sure as hell want one too. In that situation, adding more guns WILL stop the violence. One person will die, ( hope it aint me ) and if its him, that guy who will have done it to others will no longer. Taking guns is not the answer. Since when to criminals obey laws anyways?

[adb]

The multiple windows and doors problem can easily be solved with bars across them. I used to live in Miami and those decorative ( use that word very loosely ) bars across windows are all over. You cant get through bars. Try bullet proof windows instead of bullet proof chalk boards. Multiple entrances can be remedied by doors that are locked from the outside. Only can be opened from inside without a key. That way, there is no fire danger. You can just push the door opened normally from inside, but from outside, you must have a key, or go around. The alarm will sound when that door is opened. So no we have windows that cannot be entered at all, one main entrance with multiple guards during pickup/drop off, a guy in a tower ( any of the trained staff can do that on rotating shifts ) and other entrances have been reinforced. Not to mention that the only way into the parking lot is to either scale a brick wall, or jump a gated entrance for the cars and buses during pick up/drop off.

We do need to quit reverse engineering this problem. The threat shouldnt stop in the classroom, it should stop at the main gate. Nothing can stop bombs really, but if i were to build a school the entire place would be built 6 foot underground, any bomb blast from outside would go right over head. Time to re design schools. Its far less costly than redesigning the constitution. Last time that happened, we lost more lives than in any war we have ever been in, combined. We are trying to save lives here, not loose them after all....

This is exactly what I'm talking about... your solution is more guards, more protection, bunkers, bombs, more guns... all fuel on the flames. Think outside the box. Change how you fundamentally think. Until you do, these problems will continue to plague you.

[adb]

ADP, your Canadian, I cant help but like you. Havent met one I dont like, and never did one let me leave sober There is an attitude problem, but its not one that causes people to die. Even if it were an attitude problem, its not guns that make it worse. Lets look at your statement and modify it to reflect recent events.

The solution to pressure cooker violence is not to add more pressure cookers, or put them into the hands of unqualified people (like teachers). Now thats insane. Its not the tool, its the person using it. No if somebody comes at me with a gun, I sure as hell want one too. In that situation, adding more guns WILL stop the violence. One person will die, ( hope it aint me ) and if its him, that guy who will have done it to others will no longer. Taking guns is not the answer. Since when to criminals obey laws anyways?

I am TOTALLY against taking away the guns. That will NOT work. I am about changing the attitudes towards the ones you already have. Educate your children... that's where this will change. Tell them owning a gun is a privilege, one you must earn. With that privilege comes great responsibility. Guns are not the first solution to any problem.

I agree... it's not the gun, it's the person. Guns are just the easiest solution to a mentally ill persons problems because they're effective and easy to access. America needs to change that.

[sleek]

All I am trying to do is secure schools. How do we do that? You make them to difficult a target to hit. I think its very simple. And problems do escalate, and when they do, guns become a very viable solution. When a person wants to target a school, all other solutions have failed. Its either bring out the fire power or game over.

[Olanigw (Pekane)]

This thread is in a downward spiral.  I'm out while I still have a cool head.

I tried for 30 minutes to react appropriately to Adb's post, but this is the best I can do.

Adb:  My "right" has nothing to do with being American.  When someone threatens you with death or greivous bodily harm in any free country, you have the right to stop that threat.  What you use, whether it be your size and strength, or a gun, is irrelevent...
unless you weren't born with the first two.  For those people, it's kind of a big deal.

Paragraph 2:  You can only legally use your pistols for target practicel.  Your drug dealers buy stolen firearms which they use illegally to intimidate and kill on their turf.

Paragraph 3&5:  The sociopath STOLE them.  His mother was an idiot for leaving them unsecured, and paid with her life.  The only place it's easy to get arms is the black market.

Paragraph 4:  If using deadly force is your first line of defence, you're going to jail for a very, very long time, no matter what tool you use.  Deadly force is always the last resort, when nothing else will deter the threat to your life. 
     4b. I don't care that everyone has them.  I care that drug lords and gang bangers have them. 
               i. When my "problem" is having my life and the children around me threatened by coward
               with an eye for fame, no, I'm not afraid to solve it with deadly force.  I trust many of my
               old high school teachers to be safer with a gun than most of the police I know.

Paragraph 6&7: Sir, you crapped on my front porch.  I accept it and the reasons for it.  Please don't cheapen it with an apology.  I like you.  My feelings remain unhurt.

Sleek: locking our children in boxes is a part of what leads to these tragedies.  The bars work both ways.

[vinemaplebows]

ADB,

                A right in my mind is something that can't be taken away. Get in a arguement with your wife, or girlfriend and the cops are called......you soon find out your "RIGHT" really is a privledge. Your privledge to own a gun has conditions, and those conditions may have nothing to do with a gun crime. The reason for the panic in the US over ammo and guns is because US citizens realize their rights at any time could be trampled on by those in power.....darn I mean privledge. If the people REALLY believed the constitution was as solid as some may think.....there would be no panic!

             I believe that most of the problems with our youths has to do with the breakdown of family values, and more importantly the exit of both parents to try to make a living. I wonder how many of these active shooters came from broken homes? Society has forced a choice between the has, and has nots....looser, the kids! See much of this crap before the 80's?



VMB

[Gordon]

I think we should all take a deep breath now. The fact is in the US your child is more likely to die of Leprosy than in a classroom shootout. Yes it happens as the Newtown massacre demonstrated, but it is an extremely rare occurrence. These kind of incidents are so rare and unpredictable (they are unpredictable precisely because they rarely happen) that I doubt that arming teachers, turning schools into fortresses or banning assault weapons and high capacity magazines would have any meaningful effect on child safety. As a society we would be better off allocating public resources and political capital on problems that we can actually impact - like suicide which is the number one cause of gun related death in our country and will kill more of our precious children in one year than classroom shootouts will ever. But that’s a different discussion…

[adb]

I figured my post might ruffle some feathers, but as I said several times, I meant no offense. America has some serious problems with gun violence. You have a gun culture, secured by your constitution. Having a gun culture is your choice, but along with that choice comes consequences. What should also come with that choice is responsibility, like safe storage, reasonable access, and healthy attitudes.

I really hope America can solve some of these problems. I don't have any immediate solutions, but I'm pretty sure nothing will change on your current path... in fact, it will probably worsen. Adding more fuel to the fire won't put it out.