Short Arrows and Shootless

[JackCrafty]

Hello,

Growing up in NH, it was always easy to find materials for primitive archery.  I took my free time (and free materials) for granted.  Now I live in central Texas....and I'm getting back into primitive archery in a big way.

Anyone got dogwood shoots?  I've tried a few times to BUY the darn things but the sellers are very hard to find and when I do find them, selling shoots seems to be a very low priority (compared to selling bow staves, for example).

Also, I build arrows in the 22"-24" length range (not including arrowhead) in the Native American style.  Most of the spine charts I've seen fizzle out below the 26" mark.  Anyone got a short arrow spine chart? Has anyone had any luck using this one posted by "onemississipp"?

http://onemississipp.googlepages.com/spineweight.htm

Lastly, many Native American arrows are not drawn all the way to the arrowhead.  How do you measure spine on an arrow that is only partially drawn?  Do you only measure spine along the actual draw length? Do you deduct the brace height of the bow from the draw length?  Is a spine chart measuring deflection of a SPAN 26" or and ARROW of 26"?

Thanks guys!

[wolfsire]

How do you measure spine on an arrow that is only partially drawn?  Do you only measure spine along the actual draw length? Do you deduct the brace height of the bow from the draw length?

I think the spine is the same regardless of draw or brace.  It is about how much the arrow will bend, which those do not affect directly, unlike arrow wood stiffness and length.  If you drew the bow back farther, the bow weight would be more and you would need an arrow with greater spine, but the spine of the arrow you are using should not be affected.  An arrow that is longer than the draw length has a lower spine if that spine is measure for that draw lenth.  But spine can be measure on arrows of different lengths.

I'm hoping to build this variable lenght arrow spine tester this weekend.  I think it has the chart you are looking for.

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,4589.0.html

[JackCrafty]

Thanks Wolfsire.

Hmmm....I followed that link but it's a spine tester build-along.  I've got a spine tester (silly contraption that it is) and I'm confused about how to assign a spine value to an arrow that doesn't fit the mold (like many Indian arrows).  Right now, I use trial and error to match my arrows to my bows.

[JackCrafty]

Oh yeah....I forgot to mention the items I will trade for dogwood shoots (or any other hardwood shoot for that matter):

-Ashe juniper bow staves (they will be green) that are growing behind my sister's house.....she hates the darn things!
-Sinew strings.  I make them out of deer or elk sinew and it takes me about 2 hours of labor for each string.
-Salted deer skins.  I get 'em pretty cheap if I buy in bulk at the local sausage market...I wet scrape and salt them myself.

[wolfsire]

I'm confused about how to assign a spine value to an arrow that doesn't fit the mold (like many Indian arrows).  Right now, I use trial and error to match my arrows to my bows.

The thing about the spine tester I linked to is that it allows you to test the spine of different length arrows.  Yours might be set to 28". 

The general rule is that you add 5lbs of spine for every inch shorter and subtract 5lbs for ever inch longer.  I don't know if that answers your question.  If you spine your arrows to say, 40 lbs at 28" then cut them down to 22", then your spine after cutting would be 70lbs (28-22=6 *5=30+40=70).

It you cut it to 24", the spine would be 60lbs.  If you only pull it to 22", leaving 2" out front, then the spine is still 60lbs.  If you bow is 60# at 22", then you are set.  If you bow is 40lbs at 22" and you want to use 24" arows, then you need an arrow spined at 20lbs at 28" cut down to 24" to get you 40lbs at that length.

I'm just learing this stuff too, but I'm reading the books now, so I hope I'm getting this right.

[Coo-wah-chobee]

I'm confused about how to assign a spine value to an arrow that doesn't fit the mold (like many Indian arrows).  Right now, I use trial and error to match my arrows.

....................... The spine tester is a good tool in most circumstances. However, I think what ya said is the most accurate. Short draw arras indeed all arras will show a preference for the bow or not no matter what the spine tester says. Spine testers will get ya close but not necessarily all the way. They are easier but not the only way like ya said. My 2 cents..........bob

[M-P]

Hi,  I thought spine testing was merely a way of standardizing shaft stiffness.  That's why it's technically specified as xxº of deflection at 26".  The individual archer then needs to make adjustments based on his/her bow, etc.   Longer draw lengnths need stiffer arrows, per pound draw weight. Wider handles need weaker spines per draw weight.  Etc.
Anyway as someone already mentioned the spine weight is just a guideline.  My suggestion is to measure all your shafts at 26" ( if possible) and use those measurements to group and compare shafts.  If you're making a spine tester just mark the scale in degrees of flexion and make up your own chart of which spine deflection works best with a given bow.  Then you'll be able to consistantly pick the right shafts, or work stiff ones down the the right spine.  There's a lot of trial and error each time you make a new bow, but once you've found even one arrow that consistantly flies right, you make more to match.
Ron
PS You've got a pm too.

[Pat B]

With hardwood shoots and cane, you can reduce the spine by up to 10# because of the natural taper.
    Pat

[DanaM]

Make some arrows of varying stiffiness in your desired length then test shoot them.
When you find the one that shoots best build the rest just like it. A shoot shaft can
be planed or sanded down to lighten the spine some. Pound two nailes in the wall about 20"
apart and hang a wieght off the middle of the shaft then trace a line on the wall along the bend.
Then all ya have to do is match up the rest of yer shafts.

[JackCrafty]

Thanks Wolfsire   I read a bunch of articles on arrow spine a while back....but I've slept since then.

Thanks M-P   Yeah, I use my spine tester to group my shafts into "stiffness" bundles.  This helps me weed out the odd shaft that is either too stiff or too weak for its weight (in grains).  This saves time down the line because I don't have to worry about messing with the shaft diameter too much.

Thanks Pat B   Natural taper....hmmmm.....in which direction?  My experiments have shown that a chested arrow (thickest under the feathers) can be reduced in spine (and shoot just fine) but a bobtailed arrow is more finicky.  If the arrowhead is heavy, well......then the whole business gets REALLY tricky.

Thanks Dana-M   Good advice....except for the pounding of the nails in the wall.  Question...who's wall is it?  My walls do not "belong" to me if you know what I mean.   And yes, the "match the good arrow technique" is the one I use.  I just wish there was a shortcut to building arrows (for someone else) instead of saying, "Send me your best arrow and I'll copy it".  I don't know about you but MY best arrow is my best buddy. 

[JackCrafty]

Kowechobe  Two cents is two cents!

[Pat B]

I use the butt end of hardwood shoots(and cane) as the point end. With the shaft tapering down towards the rear you have better clearance and thus lighter spine is OK.    Pat

[Hillbilly]

My experiments have shown that a chested arrow (thickest under the feathers) can be reduced in spine (and shoot just fine) but a bobtailed arrow is more finicky.  If the arrowhead is heavy, well......then the whole business gets REALLY tricky.

I'm like Pat, I've always found weight-forward arrows to fly much better than tail-heavy ones. I usually plane my shoot shafts down to a constant diameter, but when I'm using cane, I always put the big end forward.

[JackCrafty]

Pat,

OK...so the bobtailed arrow has better clearance.  If I make the spine lighter, doesn't that allow the arrow to paradox easier anyway?  And, therefore, the better clearance is not needed?

I think better clearance would be more beneficial on an arrow that is stiffer?  Therefore, spined heavier? No?

Maybe I'm bass ackwards.

[mullet]

  If you make the spine lighter it will just take longer for the paradox to straighten. Therefore if you shoot through heavy foilage, your arrow stands a better chance of slapping something going down range. Or worse case scenario, blowing up when you shoot. OUCH!