Nock point/limb balance

[DC]

If my nock point seems to be a bit high, which limb is too strong? I pondered this while I was trying to get to sleep last night and my logic seems to think that the top limb is too strong. Am I right?

It did put me to sleep

[Pat B]

I set my nock 3/8" above horizontal and I nock the arrow on top of the nock point. That seems to work for me on almost all the bows I make. I usually shoot a bow in with no nock point. I can feel even tension on the string and shoot like that...pretty accurately too I might add.

[DC]

I don't think you answered my question. Reading Badjers "engineering " post I got the impression that raising and lowering the nock point was just compensating for a tillering imbalance. That said, you've brought up another question. When you say that you can feel even tension on the string, can you elaborate on that? Do you actually feel the nock point/arrow lift up or pull down or do you feel the bow torquing toward/away from you?

[George Tsoukalas]

What is it, DC?
I would not worry about it.
I think a better way of looking at the limb imbalance issue, assuming you have one and if you did the bow would feel tippy when you draw it, is to move the arrow pass up or down. Down would strengthen the bottom limb and vice versa.
I think Badger was thinking aloud but I never did fully understand his point.
Jawge

[DC]

What is it, DC?
I would not worry about it.
I think a better way of looking at the limb imbalance issue, assuming you have one and if you did the bow would feel tippy when you draw it, is to move the arrow pass up or down. Down would strengthen the bottom limb and vice versa.
I think Badger was thinking aloud but I never did fully understand his point.
Jawge

What do you mean, "What is it?"

[bow101]

The only time I fret about the Nock point is when the arrows are going to high, low or nock high on the target.  That is my last adjustment.  By far the biggest problem I have is the handle area.  But then again I'm shooting off  the shelf..........

[bradsmith2010]

i think the top limb is too stiff for where you are shooting the bow,,or where the arrow rest is,,,what
if you lowered the point where the arrow is resting it might shoot better???
but usually if I have to raise the nock point much,, its because there is no positive tiller,, even though it may  appear that way at brace,,hmmmm,,,
the longer the bows seem to be less sensitive to this,,
the shorter ones seem a bit finicky,,
I have a long bow I am shooting now,, it has a sweet spot,, for sure,, i have moved the arrow rest up and down and there is one spot is gets the best arrow flight,,,, there is not any positive tiller on the bow at brace,, but the arrow flies great,, so I am not worried,, yet
and everything could vary depending the the shooter and release,, isn't that fun,,,

[Blayne]

Damn thats a "I drank too much coffee before bed" kinda night lol! I only worry about nock point when my arrow is swimming at the target like a seal. A slight change in brace can change it pretty quick. I am not sure that the limb balance has much to do with it? But thats me keeping it simple.

[Pat B]

DC, when I shoot in a bow I place the arrow on the string about where it should be(no measurements)and feel the tension on the string above and below the arrow as I draw to see if one feels stronger. On some "primitive" bows I make I never use a nock point. I just give it an educated guess and usually they shoot just fine.

[BowEd]

DC....you can feel which limb is stronger drawing with a loose or no grip as you stated.It will show on my tillering tree even before I draw it.With the bow straight up and down as you draw it the stronger limb will tilt towards you.The pressure point on my bow hand is pretty darn close to the center of the bow.
What always seems to work for me DC is that initially I mark my handles at 4.5" long.I go 1/2" down for my arrow pass.That puts my arrow pass at about 1.5 or 1.75 inches above the center of the bow.My actual handle then is 4" long.Then like Pat B says I put my string knock on the string 3/8" above my arrow pass on the handle for the shaft to be level.That's the way I was shown and it has worked for me always,but I usually don't shoot bows shorter than 60".Like Brad said longer bows are more forgiving when it comes to accuracy it seems.I was told that by my mentors who've shot traditionally for over 50 years and they are right.Does'nt mean it can't be done though.I can't comment on arrow flight of shorter bows because I don't have enough experience with them.That's about as technical as I ever get.You do what feels good to you.
Badger wants better arrow flight period.
 

[mikekeswick]

First if you lower your nocking point do the fletches scuff your hand?
I only ever need to go 1/8 higher than square to the string. 3/8ths seems like a lot to me?
lower limb is too strong and therefore returning to brace too quickly if you have to raise the nocking point excessively.

[Pappy]

Man you guys get technical, never have figured out how one limb returns to brace before the other when the are attached with a string  If the bow feels balanced in my hand when I draw it back I set my nock about 1/8 high to start and adjust from there if needed to get good arrow flight. 
 Pappy

[Dances with squirrels]

Mike, I set my nock point at 3/8", measured from the shelf to the bottom of the nock point. When I put an arrow on the string, which has a 1/4" thick nock, it results in the aft end of the arrow being 1/8" above square to the shelf.

Pappy, just because the limbs return enough to make the string straight again doesn't necessarily mean the limbs are done moving at that instant. If one returned before the other, it will have gone beyond where it resides at brace, before the other gets there, and they have a bit of settling to do before they find their brace height equalibrium again. This is what creates handshock.

[Dances with squirrels]

Asharrow said, "Since we hold the bow below the arrow, on release, there will always be a force tending to rotate the bow's top limb toward the archer. (As someone noted about a video early in this thread)."

I don't think this is true as it stands. It's just as much because we draw the bow above its center. Bows can/should be designed and tillered so that this tilting back of the top limb is minimized, and often, some 'tipping' can be 'recognized' in design, and then eliminated completely through tillering. That's what tillering and limb balance is about. If a bow does in fact act that way in the end, I feel safe to say it could have been designed and/or tillered better.

"This idea is similar to the issue of making the limbs equal length or making the bottom one shorter. (And whether to make a shorter lower limb stronger than the upper limb--I say that latter practice makes no sense, because a shorter limb of equal strength will return faster anyway)."

I think it makes no sense as well, but perhaps for different reasons. I think that regardless of whether the bow is symmetrical or asymmetrical, its limbs should be balanced in strength relative to the archer's holds on bow and string, and then the braced profile is what it is.... a result of our tillering efforts... not a mirage of a beacon to guide us throughout construction... which basically amounts to a guess of what is best for any particular bow. I also contend that when the bow's center is within the grip of our bow hand, and we pull the string above center, if the strength of the limbs is perfectly balanced, relative to the shooter, on a straight standing bow, the result will most likely be negative tiller. If in the end it IS in fact negative, then a shorter lower limb isn't necessarily going to return faster then, is it? It won't because it's limbs have been made to work in harmony.

[Badger]

Man you guys get technical, never have figured out how one limb returns to brace before the other when the are attached with a string  If the bow feels balanced in my hand when I draw it back I set my nock about 1/8 high to start and adjust from there if needed to get good arrow flight. 
 Pappy

  Pappy, I do it exactly like you do, as long as the string attaches the two limbs they have to return at the same time.