Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: bassman on December 02, 2020, 09:17:44 pm
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Guys on Leatherwall are not buying 190, or more fps at 10 Gpp. with wooden bows. Some names on here have come to my mind, so how many of you bowyers on here have truely built bows that have met that criteria, or numbers? The thread started ,because a gentleman ask what speeds we were getting out of 40 lb bows. His was a fiberglass lam bow that he was getting 150 fps with a 416 gr. arrow at 28 inches of draw. Brad Smith ,and I made them aware of the fact that some wooden bows numbers those numbers, but are not typical of wooden bows, but that it has been done, and that is why I asked the question.
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Good question. My best self-bows are around high 160 FPS on a very good day. But I do believe that bamboo backed bows or high quality Yew or Osage bows can top 180 FPS. My main objective is 180 FPS with a self-bow from a common stave. Hence the search for the best design, for each particular stave.
A lot depends on the quality of the shooting machines or the release by best shooters. I think even average fiberglass recurve bows will easily go over 160 FPS with a proper shooting machine. We need more of the designated shooter/testers like Badger. I will rely on their opinions.
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Scp - just make a shooting machine.
I've hit 190 with my sinew backed recurves r/d design.
Bear in mind that a lot of those glass bows are made to last forever - they are not optimized for the highest fps numbers. They are made to be able to take a lot of 'abuse'.
My fastest glass bow designs have hit 190 at 10 gpp. I've gone a bit faster by swapping glass backs for 90% unidirectional carbon lams I make myself. Glass is better in compression.
40#, 50# it doesn't make any difference, match the arrow to the bow.
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I have made a couple of simple shooting machines. My beat-up fiberglass bows shoot about 160 FPS on them. A new fiberglass recurve and an old compound bow shoot around 180 FPS on them. My own self-bows from ordinary staves shoot around 150 FPS. I think I can tinker with my "primitive"machines to shoot a little faster, say by 5 FPS. No interesting news here. But this can be a good average starting point. If you are making self-bows that shoot 170 FPS, you are doing great and definitely above average. Just a humble opinion after 10 years of on and off dabbling.
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I don’t have a chrono. I have only shoot one of my bows through one. It was my first hunting bow and the third selfbow I ever attempted.
It was a overbuilt HHB straight limb bow. I had it tillered to 50 lbs at 25”. I was shooting 595 grain red osier arrows and short drawing to slightly less than 24”. It had a thick b-55 string and it was my pride and joy. I shoot it a lot. I shoot it a real lot. It held up very well as it was so overbuilt and at my draw not over stressed.
Right before hunting season my brother wanted me to show it to his compound buddy that owns a bow shop. This fella had made a few lam bow many years ago.
He was very interested in my bow and even more so in my arrows. He had to weigh them and glean as much data as he could from everything. He watched my arrow flight and thought my bow seemed pretty fast. He had a chrono and asked if I would like to shoot through it.
I shot three times through it. A very consistent 129 FPS every time. I was actually very disappointed with those numbers at the time.
I posted a thread here asking if that was enough? I planned on hunting with it. Pearl said “you should have never shot it through the chrono. You knew before you tested it that it was up to the task”
I took her outside and shoot her a bunch more. My target was on the gravel driveway and would slide a little with the impact of each one of those 595 grain arrows. I put the numbers out of my head. I was going to find out for myself if it was good enough. Pearl was right. I knew she was up to the task before I saw that number.
I haven’t shot one of my bows through a chrono since. I would like to though. I don’t know if I would be disappointed or pleasantly surprised. I do know I wouldn’t let whatever the number was make me think it wasn’t enough. A couple weeks after that day I got a double lung pass through on a nice little six point buck. That put so much confidence in my equipment. Muck more than if that number had been 190.
I’m not a big numbers guy. I am curious though. Not curious enough to buy a chrono though. I’m pretty sure I have picked up some speed since then. 190? I don’t know. I still have a short draw. I might have to go visit my brothers buddy again.
Bjrogg
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@ 40lbs. . . . 190fps ??
Maybe Mulberry or yew but that would have to be an arrow right at 400grns @28 for a pure selfbow without backing. Most woods just carry to much mass on limbs for that. Even 160fps is screaming.
Not playing chrono games with my bows anyway I know 100fps with sharp point prolly kill Buffalo.
HH~
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I don't own a chrony, sometimes I can use one from a friend. So I have data only from a few of my bows.
I never reached 190 fps per average, but 187 with two bows. One was a mild 5 curve, the other a reflexed (at working limb) static recurve.
I think 190 is reachable, when longevity is not in the foreground.
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It seems like DC makes yew reflex deflex bows that come in around that number quite often. I know that Lebhuntfish built one a few years ago that topped 190 called The Fury.
I havnt had any hit 190 fps yet. My closest I have had was about 175fps. That was a black locust recurve that I was only pulling to 27” instead of 28”, so probably would’ve been over 180fps. But my average for a straight limbed black locust is right about 160fps with a 10gpp at a 26” draw. Some bows are a little faster and some are a little slower. I never know what a bow will do until I finally fling an arrow.
Kyle
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What I have found is none of these folk mention draw length, only poundage. If the draw length is thrown in the mix the playing field levels out.
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I have done it with 2 recurve self-bows, that I can remember, and with several laminated, again recurves. I have also hit mid 180's with sinew backed bows using dacron strings, once again recurves. Doesn't really matter if they believe or not, doesn't change anything
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Doesn't change any thing, but when a man calls it bull shit in a normal thread discussion it is like he is calling you a liar, and that is the reason I asked the question .I already knew the answer. Just wanted to bring it to light. I have the highest respect for your bow building along with others on here, but the most impressive item you have ever posted on here is your wife's harp in my opinion. I have built upright stick basses, and guitar basses from scratch, and know what it takes to build a quality professional instrument. Just had to mention that even though it is off subject.
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When I shoot my bows by hand through a chrono, I often get almost 20 FPS less than shooting with a shooting machine. This is probably because I simply draw only 25 to 26 inches by hand instead of 28 inches on the machine and I also fail to shoot with the fast power stroke release. I must have gotten really timid after breaking several bows while shooting and hitting the chrono guide wires a couple of times, over the years. I suspect most people cannot get the proper result from a chrono without a shooting machine, at least not without a lot of practice.
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I shot three times through it. A very consistent 129 FPS every time. I was actually very disappointed with those numbers at the time.
With your double lung pass through, your overbuilt bow probably shoots at least low 160 FPS with a 10 GPP arrow, if tested with a shooting machine. Over 170 FPS if drawn to 28 inches.
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Selfbow or backed bow?
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just wouldnt worry bout that site over there, dont take it personal,,we believe you,, :D
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Selfbow or backed bow?
The statement was generalized as "wood bows" and it was clarified that your bows were bamboo backed yew.
The doubt seemed more towards natural material bows of any sort.
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His was a fiberglass lam bow that he was getting 150 fps with a 416 gr. arrow at 28 inches of draw.
I suspect that a lot of the issue is with people not knowing their actual draw length, and poor releases.
So many people think they're drawing 28" when they're only drawing 26", or less.
Likewise, some of the higher numbers you'll see are from people who are overdrawing.
That's not even going into the fact that if we simply measure draw length to the back of the bow, most bows have handles that are different thicknesses. So a 28" draw length might not equal a 28" draw length. This is why the old AMO draw length standard existed -- but it seems most people who post here or who make selfbows/all-wood bows don't use that standard (and it's not "official" anymore).
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yes lots of variables, but very interesting,,,I enjoy the post here and attitude of the wood bow guys, and the sharing of knowledge,, its great
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I agree nakedfeet. When you ask someone what there draw is. Most times they overstate it. I think especially if you practice odd shooting angles like simulated hunting shoots you will probably find even shorter draws.
Sometimes I think when we get comfortable shooting. We even draw to a weight and not necessarily a length.
I do think some people are shooting machines though.lol really advanced ones.
Bjrogg
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Interesting thread! Not many folks carry a shooting machine hunting, though (lol)! I think draw length has to be measured on a "live" bow and a measured arrow, and it may change due to any number of variables.
Hawkdancer
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My friend Joe went to Mo Jam years ago where they had a bow speed contest, he had a sinew backed bow and had come from a vacation the southwest a day or so before the contest and blew everyone away with the speed of his bow.
Tim Baker brought a bow for the test that was sealed in plastic, I think it was a pecan bow. When he shot it he jumped forward sharply on his release, he won his class as well with his obviously very dry bow and unconventional shooting style.
All of the above memories are at least 20 years old and being a forgetful old man my recollections could be a bit off.
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"190's with self,and lam wood bows" is the quote from my reply. That was on the Leather wall.
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Ok I will shoot my my selfbow as best I can at 28-3/4 “ . It sent the arrow 239yds. Don’t know how fast that is but it was 20 yds short of a 21st century 50# glass bow arrows with in ten grains . Not sure of draw length of the glass bow .
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I'm waiting for some independent testing. I'm very confident in my results but anyone can screw up ;D
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Slow release 178-179-180. The snap release I use at flats. 188 -214-187 let’s throw out the 214
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The arrow laying in front of the bow is what I used. It was shot at the flats. Don’t know if this proves anything. But that’s me and a crono that I hardly ever use. This recurve is close to tiller . We will check it. Arvin
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The recurve weighs in at27.8oz. The longbow weighs the n at26.7 oz probably 2-3 oz to be removed from handle.
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I think the long bow will hold it’s on against the recurve. We’ll see
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How much do the curves work and how were they attained?
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Bassman, just keep in mind those guys that are casting doubt or finding it hard to believe on the LW have a very limited experience with all-wood bows, if any, let alone fast ones. Certainly not worth getting worked up about.
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Not worked up at all squirrel. Your right they are in to shooting glass bows ,and carbon bows,and super recurves with fancy exotic woods, and ILF bows . Rarely visiting primitive, and not read up on self,and wood lam bows, and what they really are capable of.. I own a dozen ,and half vintage glass bows, and a carbon ILF recurve. I like bows period. I shoot a compound that was gifted to me by my brother in the back yard also, with a release, and sights, and enjoy shooting it. I shoot it once in a while indoors in the winter league when I want to stay inside the yellow on a blue faced target. It is all good to me. I think they have a better understanding now that they have been made aware as what a hunk of wood is capable of, or at least I hope so.
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Perhaps. I hope so too. A selfbow is a serious weapon. But I fear many traditional archers just don't believe it. There have been years I've filled all of my Pa deer tags with a selfbow. If I hunt hard enough, smart enough, they deliver.
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If you can shoot your selfbow as good as any (someone else) built glass bow. Question is why shoot the other bow.
Simple fact is when hunting gets tuff most will reach for the glass. If it stays tuff, the ML comes out. It gets cold and really hard the bangstick comes out the gunsafe. Which is fine. The babies must get fed and hunting is hunting.
Ive shot all the above and still do. None come close to placing a arrow deep into the vitals or your quarry with a good blood spor track to the animal.
HH~
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Pat dry heat on the recuves if I understand and I will string it and put a pic on if that would help.
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That should help them work a little without pulling out over time.
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Ok unstrung.
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Strung
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Looks nice Arvin. I would really like to see a full draw.
Bjrogg
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I had doubts expressed about the speed of my bows many years ago by a glass bow builder by the name of Steve Quinton, this was around 2005~2006. Steve was, at the time, a well know builder with a reputation for building fast bows, his company name was Ibex Bows. He suggested a trade, one of his for one of mine. He tested mine after he got my bow, no surprise there. He got back to me after the testing and exclaimed that my bow was indeed faster than his. Steve stopped building glass bows not long after, mainly because he was tired of working with toxic materials, and started building wood bows
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My friend Joe went to Mo Jam years ago where they had a bow speed contest, he had a sinew backed bow and had come from a vacation the southwest a day or so before the contest and blew everyone away with the speed of his bow.
Tim Baker brought a bow for the test that was sealed in plastic, I think it was a pecan bow. When he shot it he jumped forward sharply on his release, he won his class as well with his obviously very dry bow and unconventional shooting style.
All of the above memories are at least 20 years old and being a forgetful old man my recollections could be a bit off.
Eric, I tested that same Tim Baker bow and got 172 out of it. I think at mojam he got 167 or something like that. At the Mojam contest you were allowed to draw as far as you wanted, Uisng that same bow of Tims and stretching out to 31" I was hitting in the 190's. The arrow would have been around 2 grains per pound lighter at that longer draw length.
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I was there,, I dont remember winning anything,,, (-S
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What I have found is none of these folk mention draw length, only poundage. If the draw length is thrown in the mix the playing field levels out.
I've been saying this for years and wish more people would say it too. Thank you for mentioning it.
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What I have found is none of these folk mention draw length, only poundage. If the draw length is thrown in the mix the playing field levels out.
I've been saying this for years and wish more people would say it too. Thank you for mentioning it.
So far as I know, draw length is assumed to be 28 inches unless specified otherwise. The draw length is assumed to be measured from the back of the bow.
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What I have found is none of these folk mention draw length, only poundage. If the draw length is thrown in the mix the playing field levels out.
Mine were at 27" draw. As I said poundage doesn't really matter, the whole system has to be in harmony.
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I have done it with 2 recurve self-bows, that I can remember, and with several laminated, again recurves. I have also hit mid 180's with sinew backed bows using dacron strings, once again recurves. Doesn't really matter if they believe or not, doesn't change anything
Exactly right :)
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With a 50 pound bow and a 450 grain arrow pulling on 26 inches, I was getting 184 fps, and feel like I can do better if I can get a better piece of wood. Thats with my short recurve design. With my flat bow, im regularly in the mid 170s at 10gpp.
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Unfortunately I only draw about 25" in normal shooting but can stretch out to 27" or even further. My finding is I get about a 10 fps increase for each extra inch I draw. Each inch also adds 3 or 4 pounds to the bow so it is a slippery slope getting precise measurements shot to show on any bow.
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Just to be clear, I always tested my bows at a 28" draw, I would use arrows that prevented an overdraw, but I also used a fairly low brace height. The only exception was the HHB recurve I called White Lightning. It was tillered to a 27" draw and that is what I tested it at. It was getting low 190's but I think I was using an arrow of just under 10 GPP.
I remember Steve, the glass bow guy, telling me that glass bows almost never pulled to the claimed draw-weight. Maybe this guy's bow is actually a lower draw-weight than he thinks it is.
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Don’t know if you guys have shot slow glass bows with shock but I have. Even made the one. It’s all about design and set with wood bows. That recurve I’m building come off the caul with the tips 3” tips in front of the handle. It has lost 1” already . That happened at about 23” of draw on the tiller tree. 50# @25 right now . Sanding the outer limbs carefully and increased the length at fades about 1/2” on each side as a good friend in California suggested. If it don’t work I can always blame him right.😁😁😁😁 it’s still at 2” right now at 50#. Bj I will do your pic when I finally get the bow tillered. Arvin
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No here checked all of that. As a matter of fact he was pulling that bow 29 to 29.5 inches draw. Right now I have a Shakesphere x 18 45 lb bow ,and a Browning Nomad that is 45 lbs. Same draw length. I checked the weights at 28 in draw, and they are 45lbs, each. I have chronied every bow I own including all my self bows, and backed bows. His bow is a Shakesphere. With the same 10 strand B55 string, and brace ,and tuned with a bare shaft ,same arrow the browning Nomad shoots on average 10 fps faster, smoother to draw, and no stack,. Both bows are 52 inches long. It is just a better design,and a better bow over all. The only glass bow that has failed me over the years was a Shakesphere Kaibab. My brother also broke one. We shot them hard for 2 years. They both broke at the fades on the top limb. Not a fan of that company.
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I don't post much here, but I saw that on the Leatherwall. I doubted Marc's bow speeds a long while back, and he sent me one he called Sinbad. It made an immediate believer out of me! Steve
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I don't post much here, but I saw that on the Leatherwall. I doubted Marc's bow speeds a long while back, and he sent me one he called Sinbad. It made an immediate believer out of me! Steve
Marc helped me in more ways than I can say. His bows are tillered better than anyone’s I’ve seen. He doesn’t seem like the type of person who would brag or falsely overstate his work. I don’t have any of his bows, but I wish I did. I can see just looking at them that they are high performance well made and I suspect that they are pretty durable yet to. I’m thinking he pushed the limits and settled in where he could safely look over the edge without slipping
Bjrogg
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white lightening indeed shot 190+... I wish I still had the chrony pics, but here is a profile picture after LOTS of shooting, and a tip picture. Marc makes the fastest bows I have ever shot. I took White Lightning to MoJam and let everyone shoot it, so there are lots of guys that know it first hand. The last picture is an example of Marc's design profile...total speed and power. :)
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Thanks for the pictures of White Lightening. What a bow! It appears that reflexed recurve is the way to go for speed. I wonder why fiberglass recurve makers are not doing reflexed recurves. Come to think of it, I do have one old Bear Archery fiberglass bow of similar style. It is so thin, narrow and light as to make me feel almost uncomfortable to pull to full draw. Does anyone here have the full spec of White Lightening handy?
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Bob could you text me a pic of the static tips side belly and back? Thanks in advance .
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Good thread,and lots of replies.
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Actually Bob it was White Lightning 2 that I was referring to and it was made out of HHB. That one is Elm and I didn't chronograph that one
Here's a couple pics of the HHB bow plus some chrony results
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thanks so much Marc... awesome bow. :OK
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Whats the length and stats on white lightning?
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I shot Marc's Sinbad bow thousands of times over 30", and have had 2 others that he built for me that took the same abuse while practicing and hunting. Mark Introduced me to my friend Steve Gardner, who has handed me too many fast bows to count.
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I shot Marc's Sinbad bow thousands of times over 30", and have had 2 others that he built for me that took the same abuse while practicing and hunting. Mark Introduced me to my friend Steve Gardner, who has handed me too many fast bows to count.
Yes but you failed to mention that you had a 31" draw when I made the bow and I had tillered it to 28" ???. Imagine my shock when you told me you were shooting it at 31" :o
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I shot Marc's Sinbad bow thousands of times over 30", and have had 2 others that he built for me that took the same abuse while practicing and hunting. Mark Introduced me to my friend Steve Gardner, who has handed me too many fast bows to count.
Yes but you failed to mention that you had a 31" draw when I made the bow and I had tillered it to 28" ???. Imagine my shock when you told me you were shooting it at 31" :o
A testimony to your ability Marc... I have only made a couple of bows for people with 30+ inch draws... I don't like it. :fp
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That crony shot next to an Oehler is about always 15fps faster than the Ohler speeds. Tested them and others against Oehler and a doppler and speedmagnito. Put arrow thru a good Oehler 3 sensor and you drop 15-20fps off that reading. Was what I fiigered folks were shooting thru.
HH~
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Thanks for the clarification Marc. I certainly failed to mention many of the abuses I've put your bows through over the past 15 years or so. I treat the just like my sytnhetic recurves, which isn't very good treatment at all.
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Whats the length and stats on white lightning?
White Lightning 2 was 65" long with 1 3/4" wide limbs. It pulled 60# @ 27"
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My brother has an archery pro shop, and a professional, large ,expensive, chrony. It is big ,and red. Don't know the name of it, but it is a professional model. Big bucks. My brothers ,and I have the red chronies like above. On any given day cloudy, sunny, or in between when we check ours against his which we do often some days the readings are spot on. Other days up to 5fps difference, but I have never seen 15 to 20 fps.
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That crony shot next to an Oehler is about always 15fps faster than the Ohler speeds. Tested them and others against Oehler and a doppler and speedmagnito. Put arrow thru a good Oehler 3 sensor and you drop 15-20fps off that reading. Was what I fiigered folks were shooting thru.
HH~
If there is a difference then it is user error
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Hardly. Ever test chronos? I have and almost in every case two eyes almost always are faster reading than a quality chrono or doppler.
Tell me. How would you know that would be user error?
HH~
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I have a Competition Electronics and a Shooting Chrony. If set up correctly, they both give the same reading. A friend has a LABRADAR DOPPLER, and it will read the same as mine, when we set them up properly. We have tested our selfbows, as well as handgun and rifle loads.
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I'm impressed! When it comes to chronograph technology, you primitive guys appear to be way ahead of the Leatherwall group.
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Sound like good units. Ever shoot them against an Oehler or a
The cheap two sensor ones here of which there are several will get you close but are generally a tad fast. We suspected this but when we confirmed with a good doppler setup it was confirmed.
The beauty of a good doppler it can give down range data during flight.
HH~
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I'm surprised that a guy who won't test his own bows would offer an opinion.
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After shooting Marc's and Steve G's bows side by side against the best synthetic component trad bows with certified speed credentials, it's apparent that they are fast. I don't know much at all about Chronographs, but I'm quite certain that this boar was dead before he figured out what hit him.
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I still have a copy of the pic Steve.
I've done a lot of chrono testing from high power rifles to pellet guns and arrows, I've gone through more than one machine. I've also read plenty of claims that an Oehler is better but never seen any proof of it
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I shot Marc's Sinbad bow thousands of times over 30", and have had 2 others that he built for me that took the same abuse while practicing and hunting. Mark Introduced me to my friend Steve Gardner, who has handed me too many fast bows to count.
Yes but you failed to mention that you had a 31" draw when I made the bow and I had tillered it to 28" ???. Imagine my shock when you told me you were shooting it at 31" :o
That ticks me off more than you know even when pulling a unlimited bow I would make. I feel your pain Marc. Arvin
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I'm surprised that a guy who won't test his own bows would offer an opinion.
Sorry Shawn I’m laughing my butt off. Pretty good one Pat.
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I shot Marc's Sinbad bow thousands of times over 30", and have had 2 others that he built for me that took the same abuse while practicing and hunting. Mark Introduced me to my friend Steve Gardner, who has handed me too many fast bows to count.
Yes but you failed to mention that you had a 31" draw when I made the bow and I had tillered it to 28" ???. Imagine my shock when you told me you were shooting it at 31" :o
3” over a already extremely high performance design. Marc you really do “keep it flexible “
Bjrogg
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I do like Bobs "Marc bow". I have seen that design here in my house. Went to the Static Rack and Bingo. It appears to me its a early Bear Grizzly clone. The static bend is an exact match to my eyes. I never thought mine was that fast. I have to shoot it against my Super Pyramid.
I would think with a doppler you could find the most efficient arrow for flite shooting. Which arrow over its entire flight flies faster and looses the least amount energy. That would Trump which one is 10-20fps faster. Works that way with micro shafts in other materials. my 38lb bow shoots flatter than my 40lb bow when i shoot a micro thats heavier than my 5/6ths light shafts. Reducing drag using doppler I would think is where your biggest gain would be in the new age.
HH~
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The problem here is that you think that having more sensors will make a difference in velocity the chronograph reports, it doesn't. It's the software in the machine which calculates the velocity
P.S. By the way, I've been using a chronograph for 30 years so I know a little bit about them
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The side profile may match the Grizzly but the front one does not.
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The problem here is that you think that having more sensors will make a difference in velocity the chronograph reports, it doesn't. It's the software in the machine which calculates the velocity
P.S. By the way, I've been using a chronograph for 30 years so I know a little bit about them
Lol. My newest tractor needs one more sensor. To tell it that it’s just a screwed up sensor. And to just ignore the bad sensor.
Bjrogg
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Thats only about tens years less than when I got my first Chrono.
Yer right, the electronics that calculate speed with three sensors is why Dr Oehlers were so much more accurate.
Shawn~
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And why I don't believe it. If you're astute enough you can tell when the chrono gives you a bad reading, and I've had many of those.
If the chrony was 15 fps fast with an arrow how far off would it be with a rifle, and before you try and tell me that it's only 15 fps it just doesn't work that way. If it was that bad nobody would buy it plus there's enough data out there that verifies its accuracy. Still if that's what you want to believe then by all means.
I feel for you Brian, I really do (lol)
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Never was interested in an arrow speed but when yer on the Palma line 15-20fps at 1000yds makes a big difference, X or into 9
10-20 fps not gonna make hoot with an arrow at 20yds. If its in the soft spot its a dead critter but youll prolly tell me different.
Point is time after time testing yer avg reloading supply house chrony they are usally reading faster than a good one. Just a fact. Yer certainly not going to convince me otherwise. I will say its possible a new $200 one may be an improvement over time.
HH~
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Yet you still try to make a "fast" bow, right?
Even if you're too timid to find out the truth, you still want it to seem fast. Thus the use of the term "rocket" when describing the vaunted 'Super Pyramid", rather than "tack driver".
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Never.
HH~
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Never was interested in an arrow speed but when yer on the Palma line 15-20fps at 1000yds makes a big difference, X or into 9
10-20 fps not gonna make hoot with an arrow at 20yds. If its in the soft spot its a dead critter but youll prolly tell me different.
Point is time after time testing yer avg reloading supply house chrony they are usally reading faster than a good one. Just a fact. Yer certainly not going to convince me otherwise. I will say its possible a new $200 one may be an improvement over time.
HH~
If you watch this video you'll see that it's actually the opposite of what you claim, the Oehler shoots faster. Go figure
htt://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzNKUAgpKNY
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User error.
I have seen Chrono's do every conceivable thing over the years. I've seen Oehlers give crazy readings, really nutty ones. First you have to screens correct for light angle. Keep them in good order. Then, we always would take a good .22 Rf olympic rifle with to Palma matches. Set up the chrony a 34 or 35 and put a string of Eley Red or Black Box thru it. If was off by more than 5fps we knew how to adjust it and reshoot.
While yer sufing for two click answers to base your theory on check out some LONG RANGE shooter arcticles theres only about 40yrs worth showing fast and slow readings. Prolly help you figger out how to set and use a good Chronograph and there are some great ones but you have to know WTH yer doing with any of em in setting it up.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/oehler-35p-thoughts-review.51451/
HH~
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Great chance to prove your point by shooting one of your own to give everyone an accurate sample.
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Tel ya what, Ive shot thru a chrony since God was a Corporal. You want a good unit, get an Oehler 35 pay yer $ or use a $100 cheap chit and believe what you want. Simple as that.
Go to Oehler.com pay up or use junk and swear your stuff shoots rockets. I dont care, Dont waste my time shooting arrows thru a chronograph.
Shawn~
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If your looking to improve performance on a design all that matters is the unit give consistent readings. That way if you make a change and that bow is shooting slower or faster compared to your other bows you know if it helped or not.
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It would be good enough for most people, especially for hobbyists, to know the ballpark figure and relative speed of their bows.
I have a chrono, but I don't mind the margin of error of several FPS. If one cannot provide exact numbers against certain products, one is not arguing from actual strength, but just spreading a propaganda.
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Tel ya what, Ive shot thru a chrony since God was a Corporal. You want a good unit, get an Oehler 35 pay yer $ or use a $100 cheap chit and believe what you want. Simple as that.
Go to Oehler.com pay up or use junk and swear your stuff shoots rockets. I dont care, Dont waste my time shooting arrows thru a chronograph.
Shawn~
This is about arrows through a chrono though.
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User error.
HH~
Pretty sure that's what I said (lol)
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I have seen Chrono's do every conceivable thing over the years. I've seen Oehlers give crazy readings, really nutty ones. First you have to screens correct for light angle. Keep them in good order. Then, we always would take a good .22 Rf olympic rifle with to Palma matches. Set up the chrony a 34 or 35 and put a string of Eley Red or Black Box thru it. If was off by more than 5fps we knew how to adjust it and reshoot.
While yer surfing for two click answers to base your theory facts on check out some LONG RANGE shooter articles, there's only about 40yrs worth showing fast and slow readings. Prolly will help you figger out how to set and use a good Chronograph and there are some great ones but you have to know WTH yer doing with any of em in setting it up.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/oehler-35p-thoughts-review.51451/
HH~
Purty sure what I said.
Shawn~
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Come on guys...lets kiss and make up :)
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Marc seeing those pictures of your speed demon recurves again has rekindled my fire to make one like yours. I remember first seeing them in TBB and was like whoo check the profiles on that haha.....
So I've just found some superb elm billets i've had stashed away for at least 10 years....roughed them out and will be recurving and splicing them today. I will post my journey trying to replicate your incredible bow/s WL1 and 2 ;)
I also have some hop hornbeam that i'll cast my eye over and see if there is a recurve in it.
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Something special about makers of primitive bows fighting over the best modern technology to judge them. (-P
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When yer done be sure to run em thru a good unit not some ChiCom junk. Oehler, made right here in America First, but you gotta reach in that pocket and pull out that green stuff for one.
Shawn~
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Marc seeing those pictures of your speed demon recurves again has rekindled my fire to make one like yours. I remember first seeing them in TBB and was like whoo check the profiles on that haha.....
So I've just found some superb elm billets i've had stashed away for at least 10 years....roughed them out and will be recurving and splicing them today. I will post my journey trying to replicate your incredible bow/s WL1 and 2 ;)
I also have some hop hornbeam that i'll cast my eye over and see if there is a recurve in it.
If you can get your hands on some high quality Elm it will work as well and in some cases better than the Ironwood. Ironwood can be a pain to bend in the recurves sometimes, I've never had a problem with Elm
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Something special about makers of primitive bows fighting over the best modern technology to judge them. (-P
Nice to see I'm not the only one enjoying the irony in all this.
Mark
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the real irony is that the thread was about people on the LW questioning selfbows...then this...we're supposed to know better, but it is 2020. I hope everything is better in 2021. A chronograph is just a tool to compare my bows if I want to do that. Mine are made in the USA, give equal readings, and will tell me if a new bow is as fast as an old bow...I can do the same thing by just shooting a 10gpp arrow at my 200 yard fence from both, and it's easier as well as way more fun. Let's just keep making bows that we like and call it good. (SH)
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I'll drink to that, Bob! Ta Douc Ardu! :BB (SH)
Hawkdancer
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I'm not on leatherwall, what's it about anyway?
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the real irony is that the thread was about people on the LW questioning selfbows...then this...we're supposed to know better, but it is 2020. I hope everything is better in 2021. A chronograph is just a tool to compare my bows if I want to do that. Mine are made in the USA, give equal readings, and will tell me if a new bow is as fast as an old bow...I can do the same thing by just shooting a 10gpp arrow at my 200 yard fence from both, and it's easier as well as way more fun. Let's just keep making bows that we like and call it good. (SH)
If we had a "like button" on this forum, I would have liked this!
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Let's just keep making bows that we like and call it good.
That's the best way. None of it is worth getting tweaked up about and there should be room for everybody who likes traditional archery.
Mark
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2122 reviews, and 105 replies. That is a superior thread .Last time we had a thread like that on here it was the fire hardening thread which had every body fired up.. Any of you guys who are disgusted by this thread ever have a heated argument about one thing or another. I will answer. We all have. It is a discussion about speed machines, and speed of wooden,and lam bows which go together, and what they are capable of.. Opinions should be welcome. You listen,and make up your own mind. Stop reading threads you don't like ,and move on. That is the best way to deal with it.
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We cannot allow any blatant attacks on the integrity of anyone or any product without proper and sufficient evidence.
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Under stood.
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I'm not on leatherwall, what's it about anyway?
Guys on there were discussing how fast a 40 pound bow could shoot and someone mentioned 200 FPS from a wood based bow.
This thread has swung towards a guy who is too shy to shoot his own telling everyone else they are wrong.
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for me its about stating information as fact,, that may be questionable,, its going to get some response that may not be seem positive,, I think its ok to question,, I think PatM said it well,,I try to stay open minded and polite,,but am not afraid to question when statements seem unrealistic or questionalbe,,as an old guy, I feel I need to speak up when needed,, (-S
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PatM is on fire I could read this stuff all day (-P
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If you can get your hands on some high quality Elm it will work as well and in some cases better than the Ironwood. Ironwood can be a pain to bend in the recurves sometimes, I've never had a problem with Elm
[/quote]
Thanks :)
I have never made a bow with the hop hb. This is a log I got about 10+ years ago and it has been sat ever since. I will probably run a cut down them and bend em kerfed. Thanks for the advise.
The elm billets are already well on their way to becoming a bow. Recurves bent in ,limb profiles tweaked a bit and now ready to splice. It will come in at 63" ish when spliced. From its feel I would say this quality stuff, we will see.
I'll start another thread and put some pictures up.
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the real irony is that the thread was about people on the LW questioning selfbows...then this...we're supposed to know better, but it is 2020. I hope everything is better in 2021. A chronograph is just a tool to compare my bows if I want to do that. Mine are made in the USA, give equal readings, and will tell me if a new bow is as fast as an old bow...I can do the same thing by just shooting a 10gpp arrow at my 200 yard fence from both, and it's easier as well as way more fun. Let's just keep making bows that we like and call it good. (SH)
If we had a "like button" on this forum, I would have liked this!
Me too.
Bjrogg
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This is just my opinion from the other side of the wall. From a 10GPP 28" ATA/AMO draw standpoint, Uukha marketed limbs are the fastest speed "certified" synthetic" limbs that I know of. The website contains force draw curves and speed results. I will post some clips if allowed here. I'm convinced that Marc and Steve Gs (and possibly others that have not shot) wood bow speeds are right up there with the Uukha results.
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Chrono 101:
Spend the $ and get a good one.
Shawn~
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Chrono 101:
Spend the $ and get a good one.
Shawn~
Proving a point 101:
Provide data.
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This is getting old.
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This is getting old.
Yep
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I wonder if the guys at Tradlab would test selfbows? They are doing a good job with the modern stuff.
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One thing I do know.
Every time one of those guys that asks me how many lbs I can get with a very skeptical look on their face . And I string one up and ask them to draw it and tell me what they think it is? They are always totally shocked. They never expect to feel the draw that they do. Most people are almost expecting a toy. I haven’t shot very many fg bows. A bear grizzly and a Ben Parsons. I thought my bows shot very similar to the bear and nicer than the parsons. And much quieter than either, but maybe I’m biased
Their not toys though
Bjrogg
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Every time one of those guys that asks me how many lbs I can get with a very skeptical look on their face . And I string one up and ask them to draw it and tell me what they think it is? They are always totally shocked.
Nice. Do they think that 100+lb war bows are a myth, then? Or perhaps the longbows of old were made with fibreglass?
Mark
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They had that site years ago dedicated to testing trad bows for speed, don't remember the name of it now. I think there were some RD bows (glass) to actually hit 200 fps so I don't know why that guy on the leatherwall is so skeptical. I'm not sure but I think Steve (badger) participated in some of those and placed very well. The testing method for glass and wood bows differ though and I think that created some problems, with glass you can hold the bow back at full draw if you want without any adverse effects
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I just think guys that are into wood bows, have more interest in all bows,, guys Like George Stout, knows alot bout all bows,, making wood bows forces you to learn alot,,shooting a fiberglass bow,, seems more one dimensional, I dont know, I made a few,,and they shot great, but I lost interest,, not really sure,,the more we post,, the less misinformation there is to overcome,, I just love my wood bows, they are so artistic,,, like a sculpture,, (-S
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I just think guys that are into wood bows, have more interest in all bows,, guys Like George Stout, knows alot bout all bows,, making wood bows forces you to learn alot,,shooting a fiberglass bow,, seems more one dimensional, I dont know, I made a few,,and they shot great, but I lost interest,, not really sure,,the more we post,, the less misinformation there is to overcome,, I just love my wood bows, they are so artistic,,, like a sculpture,, (-S
Glass bows is an assembly of components. Wood bows are artisanal.
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I used to think glass bows looked cool, before I ever saw a wooden bow. After seeing every thing you guys make I find glass bows kind of plain and ugly now, even the shape of them. Even the plainest wooden bow looks more elegant to me
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125 replies, and 2624 views. Even heavy hitters giving their insight. Inquiring minds want to know, and entertaining. Get out the coffee cups,and popcorn. More to learn. Look at the line up of Black tail glass bows on their web.. They are beautiful. I made about a dozen glass bows, but quit because of glass dust. Brutal. Not crazy about bamboo either. Wood bow making has been in existence for thousands of years, and still going strong. It has a history that no glass bow could come close to. Bow making for me with wood is the best medicine I have found yet for peace, and serenity. Plus I have a much better understanding of how our native bows were made,and what they were capable of which is why I got into wood bow making. Then I found a mountain of information on Primitive archery. You guys just keeping them better,and better. It is all good.
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I'm not sure this is allowed here, but I guess I'll find out. This has some of Tradlab's Synthetic bow speed results. I've seen equal speeds with Marc's and Steve Gs bows:
https://www.thetradlab.com/ilf-das-limbs
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This is an excellent thread, it comes off as a very classy group of guys talking. My 2 cents worth on comparing glass to primitive. I lucked into a fantastic opportunity I think about 2004 to compare the fastest OL Adcock bow to mine at a walk the tak event in Wisconsin. The adcock bow had been publicized as shooting 186 fps 28" draw @ 28". This particular bow did 188 fps, different string s make for different speeds so I thought his add was right on target. Anyway, that bow and my bow were the same profile, same draw weight and even same length. We tested them against each other using the same string and same arrow. We tied at 188 fps. This was pre official shoot tuning up the machine. In the official shoot I went back to my heavier string and even had to put a piece of tape on my string to keep the arrow in place. Tape was very tight on arrow nock. Official test I was at 184 fps. Not much difference in wood to fiberglass potentially.
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If you look at the speeds Ibex posted the middle 180's even with hot rod limbs seems to be the norm with glass, and carbon limbs, and even the super recurves. Wow, I am impressed with some of your wood bows getting that kind of speed. If your bow is shooting 165 fps at 26 inches of draw would a same poundage 28 inch draw bow shoot harder?
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If you look at the speeds Ibex posted the middle 180's even with hot rod limbs seems to be the norm with glass, and carbon limbs, and even the super recurves. Wow, I am impressed with some of your wood bows getting that kind of speed. If your bow is shooting 165 fps at 26 inches of draw would a same poundage 28 inch draw bow shoot harder?
Too many variables to answer that :)
BUT sort of yes....longer draw = more efficency. Same weight of limbs more stored energy BUT does the wood start to break down drawing the extra 2inch.....you just can't alter one thing along without other things coming into play. That's why all this wooden bow stuff isn't as simple as it may at first appear :)
Apples and oranges get compared quite often to my eyes haha
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In theory how many fps might that be?
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I sent Steve (badger) a couple of my bows for testing a number of years ago, I think we had hopes at the time of getting more people interested in keeping track of the performance of their bows. The composite bow I sent him, a backed HHB recurve, did not crack 190 fps but it was close, if I remember correctly it shot 189. The bow was a good one but it was not the best I have made
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I remember the day I took that Sinbad bow over to Tom Mills's house and strung it for the first time with him. He plucked the string and said that's going to be a fast one. Sure enough it was, what an eye-opener for me.
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If you look at the speeds Ibex posted the middle 180's even with hot rod limbs seems to be the norm with glass, and carbon limbs, and even the super recurves.
The FG recurves store way more energy than wood bows do, because fibreglass can survive 2.5-3x the strain that wood can and the FG side profiles are really aggressive to take advantage of that. Where they fall down is the fibreglass limbs become unstable and require wide limbs and/or wide, thick tips to not throw the string or buckle to the side when drawn.
Combined with the weight of FG (roughly twice that of common bow woods), the extra material in the limbs makes their limbs and tips very heavy and that robs performance. The super recurves also suffer from severe vibration issues that eat up energy.
We can get most of the potential out of wood without stability issues causing trouble so the two end up about even in the end.
Mark