Author Topic: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?  (Read 14676 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BrokenArrow

  • Member
  • Posts: 168
Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« on: September 30, 2015, 06:04:55 pm »
Does Anyone sell a few bows a year and worry about liability insurance is one breaks and hurts the buyer?
Its not a business but just getting rid of a few bows.
If so where can you get coverage?

Offline crooketarrow

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,790
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2015, 06:24:28 pm »
 If you like had the buyer sign a weaver.

 Personally I've only had 2 osage war bows.

  A 98#er and a 109 #er. I've made 7 or 8 over 100 pounds.  I do'nt think a hunting weight bow built well enough to be sold to someone thats looked or held and shot.

  I OVER BUILD MY BOWS A LITTLE. That stops old joe when he just picks it up and over draws it.
DEAD IS DEAD NO MATTER HOW FAST YOUR ARROW GETS THERE
20 YEARS OF DOING 20 YEARS OF LEARNING 20 YEARS OF TEACHING

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,396
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2015, 06:25:37 pm »
I've asked this a few times. You're in Canada so if you get any answers they may not apply. I think the best way is to bite the bullet and ask a lawyer. Split the cost over the bows. I gave all my spares away hoping that because there was no money involved my liability would be less. Don't know.

Offline PatM

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,737
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2015, 06:27:56 pm »
I would think you'd have to have coverage for the bows forever. It would be cheaper to cut the bows up and burn them in the long run.

Offline crooketarrow

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,790
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2015, 06:40:43 pm »
  Sorry boys I live in WV. kinda red neck in some ways. In 23 years of building,selling bows never gave it a thought once. But I'm not a sueing person, and twice I could have.

  Build your bows correcty and forget about it.

  Learn to over build your bows couple inchs.

 
DEAD IS DEAD NO MATTER HOW FAST YOUR ARROW GETS THERE
20 YEARS OF DOING 20 YEARS OF LEARNING 20 YEARS OF TEACHING

Offline JW_Halverson

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,875
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2015, 08:52:06 pm »
I looked into it years back and it was gonna run me something like $5k/yr. 
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline George Tsoukalas

  • Member
  • Posts: 9,425
    • Traditional and Primitive Archers
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2015, 09:06:25 pm »
I don't sell bows but if I did I would have liability insurance. Jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline Hamish

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,482
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2015, 10:02:10 pm »
 Concentrate on making a quality product, from quality materials. Don't sell a bow(or give one away) with a hinge, chrysals, or a lift in the backing. Make sure you have a proven design  with a track record that you have experience in and you won't need insurance. A bow like that is not going to break through legitimate use, unless overdrawn, dry fired, or lack of string maintenance.

Offline JW_Halverson

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,875
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2015, 11:25:19 pm »
Concentrate on making a quality product, from quality materials. Don't sell a bow(or give one away) with a hinge, chrysals, or a lift in the backing. Make sure you have a proven design  with a track record that you have experience in and you won't need insurance. A bow like that is not going to break through legitimate use, unless overdrawn, dry fired, or lack of string maintenance.

Ah, yes, and there is the rub!  "legitimate use".  What is that?  Anything you can do to guarantee the user knows what that is?  And, ok fine, the user FAILS to use legitimately and is injured.  And let's say he has more funtickets in the bank than you do and is more than willing to exchange said funtickets for the time and consideration of an unscrupulous legal firm.  Now you have to spend your funtickets fighting it out in court and frankly, you are going into a gunfight with a slingshot with a busted rubber band.  You can be as right as rain, but once in front of a jury anything can happen.  Now you are broke, got a legal bill to settle and you have lost a good portion of your faith in humanity or the legal system. 

Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline bradsmith2010

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,187
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2015, 11:41:30 pm »
does any one know of a bowyer that has been sued,, I have not heard of that,, I am sure it could happen,, anyone can sue you for anything,,,I think the insurance would be a good idea,,,but it still would not protect you from getting sued,,,I think it is a good question for sure,, :)

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,317
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2015, 11:41:59 pm »
I quit selling bows partly because of liability concerns. It only takes one catastrophic bow failure with a lost eye or body part for a slick lawyer to take everything you worked for your entire life.

Offline Hamish

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,482
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2015, 01:03:21 am »
Hi JW, I would think anyone on this site(bar an absolute newbie) would know what legitimate usage entails. I stated some in my earlier post, dry firing, overdrawing the bow for its intended draw length, using a damaged or worn string. I would also include stringing the bow backwards,  using a string that is too short and gives an incorrect brace height, using a bow that has suffered damage in storage, transit, etc .
Educate your purchaser before the sale. Every bow I have bought from a professional seller came with instructions, stringing, and shooting do's and don'ts. Make sure they realise the limitations of a wooden bow before you finalize the purchase. Some people are stupid but it ceases to be your responsibility after they have been informed, warned, advised, and then  they still go against instructions.

 I really think the risk is blown way out of proportion to the reality. Bows have been used by man for well over 10000 years. Can anyone cite an example of a serious injury received from  a buyer breaking an all wood bow whilst shooting?

If anyone is at risk from a wooden bow breaking it is going to happen during the making, so unless you have employees(very unlikely) then  you are self employed it would be good to have some kind of personal insurance to cover you in the event something happens that effects your ability to work.

There have been a couple of occasions where I have been injured, though thankfully only superficially through wooden bows breaking on me. During early tillering, bringing a bow to brace height, whilst using a bow stringer. The laminated stave had a hickory back with a tiny pin knot(I had even left extra wood around the width of the backing at that point) To no avail it blew up on me and splinters hit my chin cutting it open. I probably could have used a couple of stitches, but didn't bother.

Another occasion, this time with a  tillered, finished bow.  When bamboo laminated panels  became available I experimented with them as a backing. I found that they were great until the severed nodes eventually lifted after enough use. After shooting it for a couple of days I heard  "Tick" .I couldn't see what it was and kept shooting to see if it was the string slipping at the nocks, and boom it blew up in my face, narrowly missing my eye, cutting me above the eyebrow.

Both these occurances  were my responsibility. I was lucky enough to escape without any serious damage, and learnt valuable lessons. 1 Don't use marginal, or unsuitable materials (this includes bad grain in hickory backings,or cross grain in the belly). 2 Use a tiller  tree with a pulley if you suspect the bow has a problem rather than drawing it by hand.

If something had gone wrong and I had lost my eye or became horribly disfigured the fault would be mine.
If you are experimenting with a new design, new materials or glue you have to do the hard yards testing to see if you as the bowyer can consistently make a bow that is safe, reliable, and performs well. If you don't feel confident enough with the results then that particular bow, or combination of materials  should not be sold if you don't have 100% confidence in it and your workmanship.

Remember there was a time when wood was the only material people had to make production bows for the mass consumer, up until WW2.  If properly made bows, from good materials are so risky, where is the evidence? Surely there would be newspaper articles, court cases from that period, laws enacted banning people from selling wooden bows. I haven't heard of any. Has anyone else?






Offline Del the cat

  • Member
  • Posts: 8,293
    • Derek Hutchison Native Wood Self Bows
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2015, 03:17:04 am »
Short answer:-
No.

Read no further unless you enjoy sarcasm.
Long answer:-
For pities sake get a grip... you have obviously been brainwashed by insurance companies and lawyers. ::)
As has already been said, if you are really worried get them to sign acknowledging that they understand the risks of selfbows.
One reason I enjoy this craft is the total absence of paperwork.
I'm sure before long lawyers will be insisting we have public liability insurance the minute we are born.

Anyhow, they could never prove it was the fault of the bowyer (unless it blew first draw in your presence) It is their responsibility to check the bow every time it is used, store it correctly etc. That's one reason I like bows to be collected in person, not shipped as I always demonstrate them.
Oh dear I feel sick now... wish I'd never read this post.
On a scale of 1 to 10 for important life events this scores 0
Del
(Scurries off to write risk assessment before boiling kettle for tea  ;D)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 03:25:47 am by Del the cat »
Health warning, these posts may contain traces of nut.

Offline Lucasade

  • Member
  • Posts: 335
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2015, 03:53:43 am »
My wife sells chocolate and some council run events are expecting traders to have £10,000,000 liabillity insurance. We genuinely can't think of a scenario where we could actually cause that much damage  >:(

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,317
Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2015, 09:07:03 am »
Even if you can prove the buyer is at fault for a bow failure, the legal cost incurred in defending yourself could be life changing in a protracted lawsuit.

We live in a different word now than the world of the 50s and 60s I grew up in. Personal responsibility is out the window for a lot of folk, they will go for your throat in court at the drop of a hat.

Most trad guys are arrow straight and responsible but it only takes one bad apple out of hundreds of customers to ruin your life.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 09:10:47 am by Eric Krewson »