Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: criveraville on April 16, 2013, 12:10:25 am
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A bit earlier I attended the Dublin ISD board meeting. During public comments I spoke in support of staff having the right to carry concealed handguns. It's a an example of democracy in action. It truly saddens me that it's a topic we have to tackle, but it's a different world than my grandparents grew up in.
Cipriano
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It's a concept long overdue. That very topic is picking up steam in my area. People are finally getting sick of seeing students and staff being defenseless against some psycho looking for his five minutes of infamy on the evening news. I feel for you Amigo. It scares the Hell out of me to send my children into a potential slaughter zone that all but invites this kind of evil. I'll quit now before I really get wound up. Josh
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I was in the middle of giving a birds of prey program with my birds in a public school when an announcement came over the loudspeakers that they were now in a Code Yellow Lockdown.
I continued with the program in a room full of third graders as a teacher got up, went to the door and locked it. I looked at her as she took a position next to the door, determination setting her jaw.
As I spoke, I thought about the 2 inches of razor sharp steel in my right pocket and the hell-and-gone mean as a snake redtail hawk on my glove. I almost felt sorry for some jack-wad wanting to mess with these kids. At that moment, I was sure that whatever was needed to keep those kids safe was just fine with me. Later on, they lifted the lockdown and things continued as normal. All I could think of was some poor coroner going over an assailant's body, counting the cuts from the bird's talons and my pocket knife as he hummed Jim Croce's "Bad, Bad, Leron Brown".....and when the cuttin' was done, the only part that wasn't bloody was the soles of the big man's feet.
There is also a couple of consultants that are working with schools and teaching students how to "weaponize" themselves in a worst case scenario. If a shooter comes in the room anything and everything that can be thrown gets thrown at the shooter. I for one, would have a hard time shooting accurately with 25 American History books, notebooks, I-pads, calculators, pencils, protractors, shoes, desks, etc flying at my head!!! Some parents have a problem with this. But why they would prefer their child meekly submit to being shot like a sheep I dunno.
If my child were in Cip's room, I'd pay for his practice ammo. And I wouldn't be buying the cheap crap.
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JW, I have a problem with it. My problem is none of that will kill the shooter. Teachers need to be throwing lead, not books.
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It's in the legislative process here in IN. Cipriano. I have no problem carrying a concealed weapon while teaching if that is what's best for the safety of my students and coworkers. I also really like the idea that local law enforcement have an office or post to work out of at the schools instead of HQ. my only hesitation with armed teachers is that a few would be a liability having a gun in the classroom. If it is only a select number that have been officially certified, then that might save lives.
Tracy
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From what I'm understanding, the legislation in Florida is saying that the principal has the right to name staff who may take the qualifying courses to conceal carry.
My viewpoint is that if would be assailants see the schools as a place where they have no idea who could be carrying, then the schools no longer are the "easiest target". It's not that all teachers are going to be carrying...but no one will know who is or isn't. Also, part of the apparent stipulation - It MUST be kept concealed.
Right or wrong I don't know. Whether my principal is qualified or not to judge character for who should or shouldn't carry, I don't know. But, I like the idea of doing away with the "safe zone" concept. Just a political term without substance.
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I dont think it will help a thing to be honest. These nut sacks attack school rooms knowing there are no guns to fight back. If we let guns in the class rooms they will start taking buses out with bombs or by flying through the parking lot at let out time with a vehicle. Crazy people are crazy. They will find ways to accomplish their goals by attacking another "weak" area. With all that said, Im as pro-gun as anybody.
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I don't know whether I'm for it or against teachers having guns but if they did it would need to be selected teachers, concealed and they must got thru periodic psychiatric testing as well a law inforcement weapons training. I think having an officer posted at each school is a good idea. It just takes 1 half brained teacher who has had a real bad day to snap and go postal. I see both sides. These days schools have to be treated almost like prisons with guard towers and bars on the doors.
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Training protocal is proposed to be the same for those security employees who would work at a bank or at court houses. Can't say I know exactly what those programs entail. You'd think a psychological evaluation would be important...what does that include? Do you have a prior history of depression, anger, drug or alcohol abuse, previous psychological counseling, prior arrest record, etc.? You need to be free of all this stuff and be willing to use appropriate lethal force for a possible life threatening intruder. Wonder how many folks working in the school could honestly raise their hand.
Most people, I think, would be excluded from consideration because of a prior history or the flip side of the coin, they have "more liberal" political viewpoints on the issue.
It is interesting to think that people believe the perimeter of a school's property is where the imaginary line is that seperates being able to conceal carry and not, to be in a safe place or not. That somehow we are safer right over here than we are just over there.
Restrictions affect law abiding citizens, not the criminals.
:-\
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Its not as simple as give em guns. When the school goes on lockdown what happens to the class of the teacher carrying a gun? Does the techer leave them to go start a gun fight? There are so many details and liablilies to work out for this to work just like when a mass shooting happens you can't just go and outlaw guns. It just don't work that easy.
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I look at it like this. My child is my responsibility to keep safe. That includes when I drop him off at school. If the teacher that has control of my son isnt mentally capable to carry a weapon, what makes that person capable of protecting my son? Way I see it, if the teacher cant handle a gun, the teacher cant handle kids. The children's safety is the teachers first responsibility. Teaching is second. Why would we send our kids to a person who is mentally not stable anyways, regardless of the gun question? And if a person is going to snap from a bad day at work, not having a gun at the moment doesnt stop a person from coming back with one. Which, is usually what happens anyways.
Folks say our children are our most precious resource. Yet, we send them to the most unsafe, unguarded places there are to spend half there life. Malls are more safe than schools. The government protects places it cares about, like military bases, capitols, and people, with guns, and lots of them. You dont hear about military bases having shootings from terrorists ( except one in texas last year ). Why doesnt the logic carry over? If nothing else, armed prior uniformed services in the schools. Like it has been said, the tax dollars have already been spent on training. Use it.
If every teacher has a gun, then there is no reason for a teacher to leave the class room to go fight a gun fight. If all doors are closed at all times, the teacher can guard the room easy. The logistics can be very simple.
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I would feel safer in school if I knew my teachers were able to defend themselves. However, my biology teacher and my future chemistry teacher are pretty good to go. I wonder how hard it is to shoot if a bunch of chickens are attacking you?
I also like another teacher's approach- if someone comes through that door, you have my permission to beat the carp out of them and throw stuff as long as they are NOT a police officer, or from this school. If they have a gun.. permission granted to throw books.
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We did not seem to have these issues when I went to school .
But then almost everyone had a gun in their truck and we shot clay targets for practice in the back yard of the school , not sure if that had any thing to do with no school shootings or not , or maybe it was The pledge and prayer before class started !
Anyway keep your kids safe !!
I will be watching out for my grand-kids now!
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Any teacher willing to go through a class and get qualified should be able to carry a weapon to school. Almost everyone I know who has a carry permit is smart enough to know how to use it and when use it. I'm sure there are exceptions, I just have not met them yet.
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I did not read through all the posts so maybe this has been asked/ suggested?? Why don't they just lock down all the doors in a school and have a matal detector at the main entrance?? Anyone trying to gain access not going through the main door would be considered hostile, and a chosen teacher (with training) would confront anyone, and yes they would carry firearms. In todays camera futuristic society it is time to step up the game, a few people getting shot at school because they think they are going on a shooting spree may get a few of these idiots top go back to their video games. my .02
VMB
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Homeschooling needs to be encouraged and given tax incentives. I do not like the teachers with guns idea: they would need to carry the weapons at all times to be effective. I would prefer well trained security officers.
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Oh yeah, and metal detectors would solve problems at the front door. I like that idea.
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Are you saying the schools would just use the main entrances ? That would make it impossible to move around (school of four thousand) you would have to add at least twenty minutes to passing periods and I'm not even to go into the problems that would cause. especially since many schools are composed of separate buildings. Should probably add that students are allowed to carry knives to school so long as the blades are under three inches, and I don't trust the school cops much, they tend to end up arresting people in the schools for the exact same things they did when they where in school.
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I teach @ a lock down school. Only the front door is left open and then they have to go through the main office to get into the school. I'd carry if I had the option. You never know. I don't trust the judgment of all teachers though. JMO, dpg
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Its not as simple as give em guns. When the school goes on lockdown what happens to the class of the teacher carrying a gun? Does the techer leave them to go start a gun fight? There are so many details and liablilies to work out for this to work just like when a mass shooting happens you can't just go and outlaw guns. It just don't work that easy.
Good point, it's part of what we were discussing here at work. So all of a sudden if I'm armed I'm going to go wandering down the hallway and leave my students behind? Not going to happen. Where I work the walls are not block. Rounds would pass straight through and then some. Just another thought...
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OK look windows and doors with windows dont stop people with guns so metal detectors will not be an effective way to prevent a determined shooter. They will shoot out windows and enter at will. The one thing we can all agree on is when a shooter is in a school we want a person with a gun to kill them right. So do you want to wait for a cop to bring a gun if your that teacher hearing a shooter going from room to room and yours is next...or do you wish you had a weapon (stun gun real gun?) at that moment.
It is a FACT that lack of action will cause more deaths and that is reality. .. ALICE
I teach and dont want to carry a gun everyday (what a drag) but if a shooter was coming to my room next I sure would like to have one at that moment.
Totally understand the point your making and I think it's valid. Your last sentence is right on the target with how I'm feeling about the whole issue. The school I'm at is a lockdown school, also. But, there are always ways to get in, always gates left unchecked, doors left unlocked here and there, students leaving things open, not thinking, etc.
A good choice they made was to lock all vehicle entrances to the campus except for one during the school day. Typically a SRO is always present. The county I live in (Collier) is on the high end nationwide for the officer/campus ratio, from what we're told. All cars have to come in through one gate. But once you come in, it's not totally secure...never will be unless it looks like a militarized area.
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In this debate it seems as if we think that arming teachers will turn them into an impregnatible defensive line, and I doubt that they will be anything more than teachers with guns.
Many teenage students are bigger and stronger than thier teachers, what happens if a student takes a gun from a teacher?
If you arm teachers it is inevitable,you will be providing easy access to guns for a disturbed student.
It makes more sense to have an armed guard at each school.
JMHO
Kevin
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At Sandy Hook the shooter was a teachers kid. At my wifes school you have to push a button and tell them who you are to get in but all I have to do is say I xxxxxxxxxxx's husband and they buzz me right in. Let the rampage begin. I'm also with you about students overpowering teachers. That what I was saying about liabilities.
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Or we could revert back to the wild west days when kids were allowed to bring guns to school >:D
Schools in the big cities do have metal detectors at the entrences of the schools. Maybe this should be a county by county sort of thing. The county votes. A rural school would probably do fine with guns in the school but in a big city like Atlanta where the school has a bunch of thugs running around, of course you can't allow guns in that school.
Also, don't most high schools already have a cop at the school. I know mine did and it wasn't even that big.
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'Gun Free zones' repeadedly only effect the law abiding citeznes. Any law you pass will only effect the law abiding citizens. The only way it effects criminals and psychos is it makes their jobs easier and safer.
Liberty University recently supported concealed carry on campus and really encourages it. Any gunman is probably going to think twice if as soon as he attempts something there's a chance he'll get shot instantly.
I read an article recently that was very powerfull and it said (Here on earth) 'Justice only happens in real time'. I couldn't agree more, also "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is with a good guy with a gun.'
Reffering to the OT, I know several teachers and obviously I know a lot of teens that know even more teachers. Most of them are flaming Liberals that are behind a lot of this gun 'banning' (Big surprise, the government funded teachers union prefers to employ liberals that will vote the liberals in again, 'mind blown' ;) ). I don't know that I would arm every teacher, but I'd definitely allow concealed carry and armed security.
BTW, I'm homeschooled and my father often carries and I'm in a generally well armed house. I'd highly suggest homeschooling to anyone who can, pm me if you have any questions. :)
Its simply a dangerous world today, just be prepared.
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One thing that hasn't really come up in this conversation is the idea I'd mentioned early on. The principal has the right to qualify any STAFF member at their discretion. This is not to say that teachers will now have the right to conceal carry, if they wish. This could be the librarian, front desk personel, the maintainance people, janitorial staff, THE LUNCH LADY! And yes, teachers.
Two weeks ago we had a code yellow. Some nut was running around the surrounding neighborhood with a machete. This happened during lunch! The cafeteria and whole school was on lock down - no one could enter or leave any room, for about 40 minutes.
In the beginning of the year there was a code red. Another nut decided to die by cop suicide behind the circle K a block away, they shot him 8 times when he pulled a pistol.
There are nuts around. I'm only about 4 blocks from the courthouse.
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Lots of great points and discussions here. It makes me ANGRY that its even a topic, but it is. My position on it is that lockdown does not work and to wait in a locked classroom with a class full of children and wait your fate as happened in other school shooting should not be your only option. Most shootings have not even had the time to get in lock down mode. It only happened in Ct because the office staff turned on the intercom. I do not like it. However, my main goal each day is the safety of my students. If I am charged with that responsibility then I should have the ability to meet a person with ill intentions with lethal force at my classroom door.
Cipriano
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There are a lot of varying opinions. I've taught at an inner city school with a metal detector/security guards at the only unlocked entrance. Students once in the building find ways to get items in the school. Another issue with all doors locked is fire code problems. I agree that we need to revamp our security strategies in America's schools to protect our kids. I'm not sure that there is one solution to fit ALL schools security needs.
Parnell, we currently have the same policy in the state that allows principals the right to designate those to be concealed carriers outside the school, ie off duty cops.
Marks & BG , I've got to respectfully disagree with students overtaking the teacher stereotype at my school and especially in my classroom ;).This would be a concern of mine if all teachers were required to carry a gun. Productive comments!
Tracy
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Many schools in different parts of the world are not built like the ones in North America. They are solid, they are defensible and they are guarded by people with firearms. It is the norm in many areas, and it should be everywhere. People say that we shouldn't have to do that, but given recent evidence I would beg to differ.
Western culture in general (America in particular, but also Canada and others) has a delusional view of how great our countries and cultures are, and how much better we are than others. We've come to believe ourselves above the need for such primitive things as armed guards and personal protective weapons. But the fact is we've always needed them, we need them now, and we always will need them. The world is by its very nature turbulent, violent, and utterly indifferent to the lives of humans. The longer we try to ignore those facts and put band aids on the problems the more lives we will lose.
Its time to take proactive steps towards protecting ourselves and our children. Laws in the past have tried to solve the problem indirectly and they have failed miserably. You can't legislate against evil, insanity, or chaos. But you can prepare for it.
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JW, I have a problem with it. My problem is none of that will kill the shooter. Teachers need to be throwing lead, not books.
"Weaponizing" the classroom against a shooter is not about killing the shooter. It is about delay and distraction tactics that reduce the shooter's effectiveness. The idea is to prevent as many casualties as possible until a final solution is met. Meanwhile, if the teacher is loaded for bear, let'em return fire. It's a whole lot better than being the good sheep waiting in line to die.
And to be very cold blooded, absolutely pragmatic...would we rather have 30+ victims due to the shooter, or half that with one or two other students caught in crossfire? Feel free to use old school mathematics or modern math to add/subtract your way to a final number.
For those that are horrified by my remarks, feel free to come up with the easy answer that solves everyone's problems in one fell swoop. Then when you have that done, please go solve the problems in the Middle East. Oh, and not that anyone here would say all guns should be outlawed, because we all know that a 25 lb propane tank and $15 at the hardware store makes a bomb that will nearly level a city block. We can't outlaw everything that can be made dangerous.
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JW, I have a problem with it. My problem is none of that will kill the shooter. Teachers need to be throwing lead, not books.
"Weaponizing" the classroom against a shooter is not about killing the shooter. It is about delay and distraction tactics that reduce the shooter's effectiveness. The idea is to prevent as many casualties as possible until a final solution is met. Meanwhile, if the teacher is loaded for bear, let'em return fire. It's a whole lot better than being the good sheep waiting in line to die.
And to be very cold blooded, absolutely pragmatic...would we rather have 30+ victims due to the shooter, or half that with one or two other students caught in crossfire? Feel free to use old school mathematics or modern math to add/subtract your way to a final number.
For those that are horrified by my remarks, feel free to come up with the easy answer that solves everyone's problems in one fell swoop. Then when you have that done, please go solve the problems in the Middle East. Oh, and not that anyone here would say all guns should be outlawed, because we all know that a 25 lb propane tank and $15 at the hardware store makes a bomb that will nearly level a city block. We can't outlaw everything that can be made dangerous.
JW, you raise some great things to consider...but I've got to know, what's the difference between old school mathematics and modern math?! This I've got to hear!!! ;D ;)
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So, now we know why nothing ever gets done in any public forum or government sanctioned problem. I think this thread shows how difficult it is to come to ANY solution before the next 5 attacks. (hopefully there are none :embarassed:) I believe in the democratic way.....BUT sometimes I wish someone were in control and just made a damn decision! BSing about a problem does nothing, especially one like this...too many opinions and of course nothing gets done. Guess this gives you a idea about being a politician. :-\
VMB
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So, now we know why nothing ever gets done in any public forum or government sanctioned problem. I think this thread shows how difficult it is to come to ANY solution before the next 5 attacks. (hopefully there are none :embarassed:) I believe in the democratic way.....BUT sometimes I wish someone were in control and just made a damn decision! BSing about a problem does nothing, especially one like this...too many opinions and of course nothing gets done. Guess this gives you a idea about being a politician. :-\
VMB
Sometimes that would be good. But in this case if Obama had his way I think most of you guys would be saying bye bye to your firearms. Democracy may be slow, but at least it keeps the mistakes smaller and easier to undo.
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I get what your saying VMB. We all have our opinions and agree only with those who reinforce those opinions, everybody else is wrong.
We refuse to work together to solve our problems,I'm right and your wrong, it's that simple.
And while this continues, so do the shootings in our schools.
Even here on PA where the respect among particapants is impressive and laudable, this subject exemplifies how we conduct ourselves in our society today, we talk around each other and nothing gets accomplished.
And concerning this subject, "arming teachers", I appreciate all of the passion displayed by everyone here, we all want to protect the children in our schools and I respect that, but guy's, are you really reading and thinking about the things you are saying?
Your talking about weaponizing the classroom,Having gunbattles inside of a classroom, and how many children would be acceptable collateral damage.
Think about the things your saying.
Would it not be more sensible to try to stop someone from entering the building first? There are no easy answers but should'nt this discussion start here?
Kevin
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J W
I vote we close the schools and let folks deal with their own kids !!
Or we can do it your way !
I do not think the new math will handle that calculation !
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..................iety today, we talk around each other and nothing gets accomplished.
Kevin
Mmmmm makes you wonder living in a democratic style system that nothing gets resolved. ???
I know the solution but aint saying.............. >:D
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Your talking about weaponizing the classroom,Having gunbattles inside of a classroom, and how many children would be acceptable collateral damage.
Kevin
The flipside to this is to allow the shooters to shoot as many kids as they can before they run out of bullets. Then we can repair their self-confidence so then they won't shoot any more kids. Granted, this is hyperbole. But we have to ask, is there a moral imperitive to intervene? If we chose to not intervene, do we carry the responsibility for the lives lost because we found it difficult to accept that responsibility?
It's precisely because schools are a "soft target" and not hardened that these psychologically damaged people choose them. They don't wander onto military bases and head for the shooting ranges. It's been said before, the only way to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun. And this is only a stopgap solution. It is the short-term solution until we come to grips with mental health issues and the obvious problem with access to deadly weapons by those that should not have them.
And I know that ruffles the feathers of hard line NRA members. But, again, by chosing to do nothing, are you willing to bear the moral responsibility for those innocent children's deaths? As a gun owner and a staunch believer in the second amendment, I am beginning to ask a few questions of myself.
But it's so much easier for me. I live alone. I have no family members with "issues", I don't have to look at them across the dinner table and ask myself if it is in the public interest to lock away all my guns or get rid of them. On the other hand, since I have no children, what should I care? No skin off my nose, right? But I do think about your kids and grand kids.
Yeah, no easy answers, huh? Sorry if I am hijacking this thread, Cip. I feel strongly that these kids should not be paying the price for everyone else's freedoms. I feel strongly that if a mad dog gets loose in a school that someone puts that dog down fast.
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Your talking about weaponizing the classroom,Having gunbattles inside of a classroom, and how many children would be acceptable collateral damage.
Think about the things your saying.
Would it not be more sensible to try to stop someone from entering the building first? There are no easy answers but should'nt this discussion start here?
Kevin
I certainly never suggested do nothing.
And if my words or opinion have caused offense, I apologise, there was no disrespect intended to anyone.
Kevin
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No Kevin, I sure did not take offense with you.
Short of constructing schools like windowless concrete prisons, there really isn't much to do to stop someone from accessing the classroom areas. Entrances can be locked, but most of the time glass can be broken and someone can reach in to open the door. Or an unarmed (for the moment) co-conspirator can open the door from inside. Then there are windows, too.
Can we rebuild every school in the foreseeable future? No, but we can start by adding some basic design changes to the next ones being built. Eventually, we'll get there.
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"Short of constructing schools like windowless concrete prisons"
Now that is a idea with merit.....pick them up when they are 18 and give them the loving boot out the door! :laugh:
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I look at the prospect of arming select members of the staff and faculty as the very last line of defense, not the first and only defense. Teachers are there to teach not be the security force. That being said, no security will ever be impregnable by an organized and determined psycho or group of psychos as the case may be. That one last layer of defense can make a big difference in the outcome. Jw makes a lot of good points. He's not suggesting that a few friendly fire casualties in the class room is a good thing. Only that its better than the alternative, which is unchecked wholesale slaughter of every innocent in the room. It seems pretty straight forward to me. As far as the hardline NRA goes, I think the NRA is to eager to compromise on the second amendment. That's right, I don't think they are hardline enough! That's more of a statement of my beliefs, not a knock on the NRA. But I do believe there are people who should not have firearms. Some of them for no other reason than they are just plain to stupid to have em. Others, would be unable to make the shot when needed. They would be an added liability then. It would be pointless to arm them. For those that would be able to make that shot, well...nothing causes a scumbag to cease and desist like two in the chest and one in the head! That could be the difference between my child coming home or not. Easy choice for me. Josh
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Lots of good ideas here,guess I just think any adult that's not a criminal or crazy
should be able to carry, no matter where they are. :) :) I never leave home without one,hope I never need it but if I do,It's there. bow101,not sure where you are coming from ??? :-\ but I don't want a King or Dictator,rather nothing get solved. :) :)
Pappy
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"democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried"
-Winston Churchill
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Yep. :) :) He was full of wisdom.
Pappy
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Well here is my position.
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Lots of good ideas here,guess I just think any adult that's not a criminal or crazy
should be able to carry, no matter where they are. :) :) I never leave home without one,hope I never need it but if I do,It's there. bow101,not sure where you are coming from ??? :-\ but I don't want a King or Dictator,rather nothing get solved. :) :)
Pappy
Kids have to be protected no doubt about it. Concealed handguns for teachers may be the way to go, after what happened. Other points brought up about school buses and other stuff, where do you draw the line.?
I was thinking along the lines of a Semi democratic system. If it gets to the vigilante type way, then what.?
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I have notticed that often times, criminals involved in shootings have prior gun convictions. The death penalty for all crimes involving firearms would sure reducee the number of repeat offenders. Just saying.
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I have notticed that often times, criminals involved in shootings have prior gun convictions. The death penalty for all crimes involving firearms would sure reducee the number of repeat offenders. Just saying.
That's an awful dangerous law in a country where having an improper magazine size is technically a criminal offense involving a firearm....
And typically in mass shootings there is no history of gun violence. There is usually a history of depression, and violent behaviour but very rarely is there actual gun violence in their history. But for the run of the mill criminal, there often is a lead up with lesser firearms offenses.
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A bit earlier I attended the Dublin ISD board meeting. During public comments I spoke in support of staff having the right to carry concealed handguns. It's a an example of democracy in action. It truly saddens me that it's a topic we have to tackle, but it's a different world than my grandparents grew up in.
Ok,Heres the thing...
It really bothers me,to see so many people,use this term,to describe our system of Govt,today.WE DO NOT LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY.Democracy is a system of,the majority rules.We live in a Constitutional Republic,where our founders set up a system of laws and rights to govern and protect us,from intrusion by a Govt and outside influence.These rights are being infringed upon,by the very people,these laws were givin to us to protect against,yet,they are being supported by citizens to help their agenda.Can you freaking believe this?
Just this morning,i saw a video,of a young man,conducting an experiment in Southern Ca.He actually got severall thousand signatures of citizens,in a matter of minutes,to abolish the 1st and 2nd Amendments.He opened his speal,by asking for support of President Obama.
Wake up people!!!
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A bit earlier I attended the Dublin ISD board meeting. During public comments I spoke in support of staff having the right to carry concealed handguns. It's a an example of democracy in action. It truly saddens me that it's a topic we have to tackle, but it's a different world than my grandparents grew up in.
Ok,Heres the thing...
It really bothers me,to see so many people,use this term,to describe our system of Govt,today.WE DO NOT LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY.Democracy is a system of,the majority rules.We live in a Constitutional Republic,where our founders set up a system of laws and rights to govern and protect us,from intrusion by a Govt and outside influence.These rights are being infringed upon,by the very people,these laws were givin to us to protect against,yet,they are being supported by citizens to help their agenda.Can you freaking believe this?
Just this morning,i saw a video,of a young man,conducting an experiment in Southern Ca.He actually got severall thousand signatures of citizens,in a matter of minutes,to abolish the 1st and 2nd Amendments.He opened his speal,by asking for support of President Obama.
Wake up people!!!
democracy-- [ dih- mok -r uh -see ]
noun plural de·moc·ra·cies.
government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
Cipriano
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One good reason we are bowyers and archers is that gun laws do not affect us.
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I think it's a sad world when anyone thinks the solution to gun violence is to add more guns. I don't have a solution, and I own and use multiple guns, but I do know one thing... what's going on in the USA isn't working.
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The average active shooter incident lasts approximately 6 minutes. A majority of the shooters turn their weapons on themselves when confronted by armed resistance. If an officer is not stationed at a school then chances are they will not arrive in time. I teach concealed carry here in NC as well as conduct firearms training for my department and most officers and private citizens don't have the necessary skills to shoot at someone and hit them without collateral damage (the same training as law enforcement training is not the be all end all when it comes to shooting skills). As things stand, schools are a soft target and as such are vulnerable to individuals with a murderous intent. There is no quick fix to the current problem we face in schools, but putting someone armed in the schools until all aspects of this problem addressed is a start. And for those who believe that taking away weapons from private citizens is the answer, look up Bathe Michigan, worst death toll in US history and no one was shot.
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If someone is truly willing to die (suicide by cop) they cannot be stopped before they hurt
or kill someone. Total safety is not possible.
There are too many variables in schools to have a one size fits all solution. Every idea I
come up with has holes in it.
Cipriano you did good.
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I'm with you iowabow, the only reason I mentioned collateral damage is going through "law enforcement firearms training" isn't enough or going to the range once or twice a year. Typically our training doesn't focus on firing in the chaos of a school, with children potentially running everywhere, while trying to take out just the "bad guy". Accidentally shooting a couple of school kids just isn't acceptable while neutralizing the threat in anyones book. I also agree with your statement about the teacher at VT (of course I think if you are an adult and have a ccw you should be able to carry almost anywhere including college) my general thoughts go to the k-12 kids that generally freeze because of lack of life experience and unfortunately make easier targets for these nuts. I also can't help wonder what would have happened at VT if that instructor had been armed and would have been able to defend himself and his students instead of only being able to hold the door closed. One thing is a definite though, we can no longer allow our schools to be soft targets.
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If someone is truly willing to die (suicide by cop) they cannot be stopped before they hurt
or kill someone. Total safety is not possible.
There are too many variables in schools to have a one size fits all solution. Every idea I
come up with has holes in it.
Cipriano you did good.
Maybe there should be a hotline, and cops can oblige!
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One good reason we are bowyers and archers is that gun laws do not affect us.
All portions of the constitution affect all US citizens either directly or indirectly on many levels. I may never need a trial by jury, but couldn't imagine the chaos that would be without the right as given to me in the bill of rights. The same goes for the second amendment. I may never directly need a firearm, but couldn't imagine the abuses that could be without the right to keep and bear arms. Any time we look at any part of the constitution as dispensable it's a scary and slippery slope.
Allot of good ideas and conversation here fellas. I heard the term soft target used and think it's a great term to describe gun free zones. Much of the mass violence that happens, happens in areas where firearms are prohibited because they are perpetrated by cowards who know they will have some time till they are met with force. I feel if we reduce our vulnerability created by these 'gun free zones' many of these acts just wont happen. Those that do will be far less successful in their ability to do harm to others.
-Dan
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As long as teachers go through the same situational weapons training that law enforcement officers do (and maintain that training) then I have no issue with them carrying in school. If not, then they have no business bringing a gun into a classroom.
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As long as teachers go through the same situational weapons training that law enforcement officers do (and maintain that training) then I have no issue with them carrying in school. If not, then they have no business bringing a gun into a classroom.
I totally agree! Shooting a handgun accurately is hard. Shooting a handgun at someone is harder, and shooting a handgun at someone and hitting them under extreme stress is even harder. All you guys talking about acceptable collateral damage... would it be OK if that collateral damage was your child? Arming teachers is NOT the answer!!
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If my son died so that all of the other kids could live then yes. My other son is in the military and is also ready to die so that you may live and your children. I do believe in a greater good.
With an untrained or undertrained teacher/shooter there is no guarantee that such "collateral damage" will yield a positive outcome for the greater good. In fact, it could just as easily make a situation much worse - such as when a responding police officer is now forced to sort out the good shooter(s) from the bad shooter(s) in a highly chaotic and stressful situation.
Carrying a gun for personal protection is one thing, but carrying a gun to ostensibly protect the public is entirely something else - if someone is going to assume that responsibility then they should get police training.
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Police officers are trained to avoid harming innocents in a gun fight. I would expect the same of anyone who is carrying a gun for the purpose of protecting the public. Naturally that requires a good deal of training, skill and discipline. There are other ways that an untrained teacher can assist in such situations - like alerting authorities, keeping the kids calm and seeking ways to shuttle the kids to safety, etc. Firing a gun at the first thing that moves isn't always going to be helpful.
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This is my opinion and not meant as a jab at anyone.
I'm a kindergarten teacher. My wife teaches 2nd grade. We are a hall apart. After Connecticut we had the conversation, "what if we were both killed?"
Unfortunately innocent children and teachers (mostly women) have been targeted by mentally social outcast and social paths.. That's just a fact. Plain and simple. It's happened time and time again. Most school shootings (the killing of teachers and students) happens in a matter of JUST a minutes. That's it. Two or three minutes and the media blast THE WORST SCHOOL SHOOTING TO DATE..
I am certainly EXHAUSTED of hearing that teachers shouldn't carry arms, teachers must not carry arms, that this or that can happen.. That doing this or that is better.
Really? I agree with it.. I SHOULDN'T have to carry a weapon as a kindergarten teacher, but I certainly will to defend first and for most my students, my bride, my colleagues and my self.
In my opinion the old cliche, "if we don't learn from history; history repeats itself.. As far as innocent children and teachers being murdered at the hands of lunatics has repeated and repeated itself with little to no action taken to change that and finally make changes to protect children and teachers. ONLY after the Connecticut shooting are school districts making changes. Positive changes and amending their district rules to allow teachers to carry concealed weapons.
I have three children at three different schools. I would feel much safer and comforted if I knew teachers on their campuses were armed. Lock down drill means this: you lock your door, turn the light off, crouch down like an animal with your students and wait for your fate if the unthinkable happens.
As far as I'm concerned "lock down" has never been and never will be an effective means of preserving the lives of children or teachers at the hands of a maniac living out a violent video game on an elementary campus.
Cipriano
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There are no easy answers for the politicians, rule makers, and administrators that are trying to figure out the best way to deal with active killers. I saw a great analogy the other day - this man asserted that all humanity was divided into WOLVES, SHEEP, AND SHEEPDOGS. Once you decide which category you fit into, its pretty clear what your role is going to be. The wolves shed innocent blood. Sheepdogs fight the wolves off. The sheep sit around bleeting for help. None of the three understand each other. I have followed this post with interest and I wish I could shed some light on what we should do as a society. I am not coming up with anything. I go through life trying to be polite to my fellow man, but I am armed. I am a father, a husband, a police officer, and when the bleeting starts, you can bet your ass I am coming. I think that all the sheepdogs out there, regardless of your line of work, need to realize that the only thing that stops these animals is someone who will fight back. I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
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Police officers are trained to avoid harming innocents in a gun fight. I would expect the same of anyone who is carrying a gun for the purpose of protecting the public. Naturally that requires a good deal of training, skill and discipline. There are other ways that an untrained teacher can assist in such situations - like alerting authorities, keeping the kids calm and seeking ways to shuttle the kids to safety, etc. Firing a gun at the first thing that moves isn't always going to be helpful.
Really?? Seems they just settled a lawsuit in California with two ladies that were shot because they "thought" they were shooting at the crazed ex-cop that killed himself recently. I am refering to the ex-cop that went nuts and started shooting his own.
Also off subject... how many people are injured in high speed chases over stolen cars when they have a chopper (or several) over head just so they can stop a car...it is down right stupid...you can run from a car, but a chopper come on! Let the idiot run out of gas and go scoop him up! I will never understand it! I don't blame the officers, BUT I do blame the department heads.....chases are NOT in the publics best interest. Training should include appropriate and rationalized ways of dealing with things that does not risk the innocent bystander.
I believe teachers SHOULD go into a class that is safe for them and their students. With appropriate training (police training) they could make the SAME decision any "REASONABLE" person/ officer can make. Cops are people too, and having a cop in the school makes the school no safer than one armed with teachers......My question is....does the people that want to carry the gun have the mental ability to kill.....or kill a child, if need be?? Lots of guys talk tough but when the sh#t hits the fan they freeze! The hell with pistols a shotgun in a lock box is the way to go!
VMB
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I am not sure the ratio of law enforcement officers/citizens.... I bet it is somewhere around 1 for ever 6 or 8 thousand people. The blue line is terribly thin. Cops get there right on time to save the day every now and then.... but it is the exception to the rule. We are usually woefully late. I think people should face reality and know that they need to learn to protect themselves and their loved ones, until the calvary arrives. Finding understanding between the different viewpoints on this issue reaffirms my belief in the above stated three categories. Our training has changed since the awful lessons of Columbine. We are taught to get to the active killer as soon as possible and engage the suspect - put some rounds into them. Even the politicians see that that is the only thing that stops them. From my viewpoint, I don't care if the janitor, a teacher, the principle or the Avon lady, is carrying. As long as they make the child killing stop, I don't care who makes it happen. Of course, I am not advocating anything.... People in my profession aren't supposed to give legal advice or God forbid, incite anyone to break the law, but I still have my opinions. Fight back you sheepdogs!
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VM, even with training police officers sometimes make mistakes. Now consider the possibilties when a shooter doesn't have the benefit of such training...
If you are going to carry a gun for the purpose of protecting the public then then you have an obligation to learn how to execute that responsibility properly. Most of the teachers that I know (and I know a lot) simply don't have the time or inclination for that kind of training - give them a handgun in a crowded and chaotic classroom and they are as likely to shoot a student as a bad guy. If we believe that putting guns in classrooms is the answer then we should allocate money to train and hire more police officers for that purpose. It's not rocket science, it's a matter of priorities.
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"We regret to inform you that your child and 28 others died today in a school shooting when no one was allowed to act in their defense."
"Why not? I don't understand it, when so many school shootings ended when the shooter killed themselves when they were confronted by an armed person?!?!"
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I am not sure where some of you live , but around here the Law enforcement folks are not trained anywhere near to all the idealistic ways you seem to think yours are !!
The cold hard facts are that in this county if you are going to be accidentally shot the odds are far and away that the trigger will have been pulled accidentally by a Law enforcement officer !
And that is not because the other folks do not have guns ,I can not think of one home in this county that does not have multiple guns in it !
I stand behind you Cip and would be honored to enter a school shooting situation with you being armed even if you had no more training than just being brought up right by your folks !!
Folks like Cip are what make this the greatest country in the world !
Stand up and do what is right no matter how hard or what it costs !!
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Okay how about this: "We regret to inform you that your child died today because her teacher shot her after mistaking her for an intruder"
I don't know where you live Guy, but I shoot at facility that is used for training law enforcement officers and they appear to receive very good training. And the claim that most accidental gun shot wounds/deaths in the US are caused by police officers is nonsense.
What's wrong with insisting that the people who we trust with protecting our most valuable possesions receive adequate training? I don't get it...
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VM, even with training police officers sometimes make mistakes. Now consider the possibilties when a shooter doesn't have the benefit of such training...
If you are going to carry a gun for the purpose of protecting the public then then you have an obligation to learn how to execute that responsibility properly. Most of the teachers that I know (and I know a lot) simply don't have the time or inclination for that kind of training - give them a handgun in a crowded and chaotic classroom and they are as likely to shoot a student as a bad guy. If we believe that putting guns in classrooms is the answer then we should allocate money to train and hire more police officers for that purpose. It's not rocket science, it's a matter of priorities.
Gordon,
I don't know if you read all I wrote, BUT I clearly agree with you on mandatory training. :) Whether or not a teacher would accidently shoot a student has merit, BUT if my child was close enough to a active intruding shooter and a teacher trying to save lives accidently shot my child I would be pissed, but not at a hero trying to protect his/her flock. There is a reasonable assumption that the shooter would kill my child anyway! Like in every war there are casualities, but what if they save 20 lives in the process.....the police can guartee no more, plus they have to respond! Every WAR has losses WE all hope it is not ours......the 20 other parents would be more than gratefull I would think....don't you? :)
VMB
VMB
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VMB, only my first sentence of my previous post related to you directly. The remaining comments were directed at others on this thread. That said, your argument has merit if you assume that most situations are such that your child dying is inevitable if a gun is not fired in resistance. I think that is a HUGE assumption – an intruder might not be armed, an intruder may actually not be intent on killing, an intruder may not be an intruder at all. The possibilities are endless and require training to properly evaluate in the seconds one has to make a decision whether to deploy deadly force. If a mentally ill individual entered my daughter’s classroom with a water pistol and my daughter was accidently shot by her teacher in the resulting melee I too would be pissed, but the target of my ire would be rightfully at the school district for not providing adequate training to their armed staff to recognize the difference. Of course you are correct that sometimes casualties are unavoidable, but those are not the kind of casualties I am talking about here.
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VMB, only my first sentence of my previous post related to you directly. The remaining comments were directed at others on this thread. That said, your argument has merit if you assume that most situations are such that your child dying is inevitable if a gun is not fired in resistance. I think that is a HUGE assumption – an intruder might not be armed, an intruder may actually not be intent on killing, an intruder may not be an intruder at all. The possibilities are endless and require training to properly evaluate in the seconds one has to make a decision whether to deploy deadly force. If a mentally ill individual entered my daughter’s classroom with a water pistol and my daughter was accidently shot by her teacher in the resulting melee I too would be pissed, but the target of my ire would be rightfully at the school district for not providing adequate training to their armed staff to recognize the difference. Of course you are correct that sometimes casualties are unavoidable, but those are not the kind of casualties I am talking about here.
Gordon,
I guess you don't think when a officer "feels" that their life is in danger they don't reach for their gun first, rather then later....I PERSONALLY have experienced this at my front door in the middle of the night when a police chase ended in my yard. I opened my front door to see what was going on and had a gun pointed at me. ???
Whether it be those cops, pointing the gun at me, or a trained teacher at a ACTIVE shooter....I think 99.9% of people don't pull the trigger because of legal issues in the back of their minds. I think anyone..... cops/responsible citizens/teachers would have to REALLY believe a life were on the line to pull the trigger...... of course there's going to be that .1% that would at a drop of a hat, pull the trigger......but if you are worried about that, don't drive, your chances of being killed in a car is much higher I would think. ;)
Very interesting conversation.
VMB
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I see a few problems in this discussion that reflect the real issues we have. I am going to do my best to explain my thoughts without sending the wrong message.
School shooting happen and this is terrible. Whats worse is that it takes a bad thing to happen many times before solutions are found. Here we are with unprotected targets. We need to protect them. So we arm up the last line of defense, the teachers, then work our way backwards to the first line, ( some would say its mental health, other gun control ) but I say its the front door. If schools were built like a base, checked in gates with guards, no shooter shall enter.
There are other options, but this is a loose idea. Stop the guy from entering the building, you stop the need for armed teachers. Prisons, military bases, and embassies are the most secure spots on earth. Why shouldnt we follow that model and add to that schools? Follow the model of the military. A car/bus drop off point, where children go around the corner of a brick wall out of site instantly, an armed guard or two at the entrance, maybe one in a tower, children are then taken by teachers to the main building where they go through scanners, into the building.
Its terrible to think of that, but, its worse to deny the fact that this would be a solution. Of course there are going to be problems with this idea, but the general idea would work. I cant think of all problems and their solutions, unfortunately...
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Sleek, we are not in a war zone, we have a few seriously ill people that crave infamy. Making our schools into prisons will impact the mental health and wellness of our children in ways we can't possibly begin to understand. Kids don't feel safe in a concrete box, they feel trapped like rats. You teach them that the outside world is a terrible, monstrous place. Even worse, you teach them that the way to deal with fear is to hide from it and hope the monsters don't find them.
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Sleek,
You got it right !
Stop them from entering the building, or at least try to.
The idea that the only way to protect children is with gun battles inside classrooms is off the mark.
It has been pointed out by those advocating arming teachers that these crazy shooters always kill themselves when confronted by armed resistance,yet they argue that putting an armed guard at the door is a bad idea.
Which is more tramatizing for children,a bloody gun battle inside a classroom, or a secure building with a guard that stop's a shooter at the door?
At Sandy Hook the nut walked right up to the front door carrying an AR.
What would be the best way to stop him?
Armed teachers in the classroom?
Or an armed guard at the door?
Kevin
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Iowabow,
You'll never do it unless you try.
Nothing is 100%, but at least try.
Every body opposed to this idea points this out, but with a plan windows and doors can be secured.
at colombine and sandy hook, they walked right in the front door carrying thier guns.
Please tell me how would you stop these shootings?
Which is preferable?
Teachers with guns and gunbattles in the classroom with dead children laying all about or stopping them from getting in the building?
If you do not try to stop them from getting in the building are you really protecting the students to the best of your ability?
Kevin
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I don't think any one solution will solve every incident, and I'm not 100% against arming teachers in some instances, but I do believe that if we don't try to stop them from getting into the building in the first place then we have already failed at the start. And I definately believe that simply putting a guard at the front door might have stopped some of these shootings and might prevent more.
Kevin
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Okay how about this: "We regret to inform you that your child died today because her teacher shot her after mistaking her for an intruder"
I don't know where you live Guy, but I shoot at facility that is used for training law enforcement officers and they appear to receive very good training. And the claim that most accidental gun shot wounds/deaths in the US are caused by police officers is nonsense.
What's wrong with insisting that the people who we trust with protecting our most valuable possesions receive adequate training? I don't get it...
This is a a large country we live in and very diverse !
In this county The law enforcement officer only has to Qualify at the local Fish and Game club , and the instructor is a local high school teacher !
So I wonder which is more Qualified the teacher or the Officer !
I don't put much stock in rumors , or stats for the country and what may or may not go on , but I do know what is going on here !
I am not opposed to training , but what it may be and who decides what does concern me very much !
The fact that there are all ready way to many laws on the books is very disturbing !
By the way we all ready have teachers carrying guns in our schools !
This is not a debatable subject around here and we don't see a need for laws to mess with what we are doing !
I am glad you are passionate about the children and protecting them !
We can use all the help that we can get !
Be kind to one another !
Try to not use definitive statements about folks you don't really know !
Take care my friends !!
Guy
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I think almost every American that is struggling with this issue is missing the entire point. Owning guns is not a right. In your country, it is... written into your constitution. In my country, it's a privilege... much like owning a vehicle. You have to earn that privilege, and maintain it. No one has the God given right to own whatever firearm they choose.
Until Americans come to grips with this fact, you're going to continue to have mass shootings. Maybe America should look at rewriting it's constitution? The right to bear arms may have had great relevance in 1776, but does it now?
Don't get me wrong... I'm a gun owner. I have multiple guns, including a hand gun. Our gun laws aren't perfect, but they seem to be preventing these issues. NO private citizen has the right to carry a hand gun in my country, concealed or otherwise. We can only use hand guns for target shooting, and I'm OK with that. It's the price I'm willing to pay to avoid the problems you're having.
We've also had our problems with school shootings, but nothing on the scale you're experiencing. Mentally ill is mentally ill, and crazy people will find a way. The difference in Canada is: assault weapons have limited access, and it's very hard to get access to them. They're not everywhere, with easy unlimited access.
For Americans, I think it's about attitude. Your attitude is: it's my right. It's my first line of defense. Everyone has one, I should too. I'm not afraid to use this to solve my problems.
I think until you fundamentally change your attitude towards guns, nothing is going to change... it's only going to get worse. The solution to gun violence is not to add more guns, or put them into the hands of unqualified people (like teachers).
How did the kid that shot up the school get his hands on assault weapons? Why weren't these weapons stored safely, under lock & key? Why did his Mom have assault weapons anyway?
I mean no offense to my neighbours here. You have some serious problems with gun violence. I'm sorry America, you can't have it both ways. You can't continue to have the attitude you have towards guns, without experiencing the problems you have now.
This post is not meant to stir up a shit storm, or offend anyone. I really truly hope America can come to grips with these issues and soon. Innocent lives are being needlessly lost.
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Adp, I really had to remind myself that due to our very different back grounds we have very different trains of thought, therfore very different ideas make sence to us. I disagree very strongly with messing with the constitution.
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Until America changes it's attitude towards guns, you're going to continue to have these problems. In Canada, we play hockey, have fist fights, and drink beer! ;D ;D ;D
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The multiple windows and doors problem can easily be solved with bars across them. I used to live in Miami and those decorative ( use that word very loosely ) bars across windows are all over. You cant get through bars. Try bullet proof windows instead of bullet proof chalk boards. Multiple entrances can be remedied by doors that are locked from the outside. Only can be opened from inside without a key. That way, there is no fire danger. You can just push the door opened normally from inside, but from outside, you must have a key, or go around. The alarm will sound when that door is opened. So no we have windows that cannot be entered at all, one main entrance with multiple guards during pickup/drop off, a guy in a tower ( any of the trained staff can do that on rotating shifts ) and other entrances have been reinforced. Not to mention that the only way into the parking lot is to either scale a brick wall, or jump a gated entrance for the cars and buses during pick up/drop off.
We do need to quit reverse engineering this problem. The threat shouldnt stop in the classroom, it should stop at the main gate. Nothing can stop bombs really, but if i were to build a school the entire place would be built 6 foot underground, any bomb blast from outside would go right over head. Time to re design schools. Its far less costly than redesigning the constitution. Last time that happened, we lost more lives than in any war we have ever been in, combined. We are trying to save lives here, not loose them after all....
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ADP, your Canadian, I cant help but like you. Havent met one I dont like, and never did one let me leave sober :) There is an attitude problem, but its not one that causes people to die. Even if it were an attitude problem, its not guns that make it worse. Lets look at your statement and modify it to reflect recent events.
The solution to pressure cooker violence is not to add more pressure cookers, or put them into the hands of unqualified people (like teachers). Now thats insane. Its not the tool, its the person using it. No if somebody comes at me with a gun, I sure as hell want one too. In that situation, adding more guns WILL stop the violence. One person will die, ( hope it aint me ) and if its him, that guy who will have done it to others will no longer. Taking guns is not the answer. Since when to criminals obey laws anyways?
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The multiple windows and doors problem can easily be solved with bars across them. I used to live in Miami and those decorative ( use that word very loosely ) bars across windows are all over. You cant get through bars. Try bullet proof windows instead of bullet proof chalk boards. Multiple entrances can be remedied by doors that are locked from the outside. Only can be opened from inside without a key. That way, there is no fire danger. You can just push the door opened normally from inside, but from outside, you must have a key, or go around. The alarm will sound when that door is opened. So no we have windows that cannot be entered at all, one main entrance with multiple guards during pickup/drop off, a guy in a tower ( any of the trained staff can do that on rotating shifts ) and other entrances have been reinforced. Not to mention that the only way into the parking lot is to either scale a brick wall, or jump a gated entrance for the cars and buses during pick up/drop off.
We do need to quit reverse engineering this problem. The threat shouldnt stop in the classroom, it should stop at the main gate. Nothing can stop bombs really, but if i were to build a school the entire place would be built 6 foot underground, any bomb blast from outside would go right over head. Time to re design schools. Its far less costly than redesigning the constitution. Last time that happened, we lost more lives than in any war we have ever been in, combined. We are trying to save lives here, not loose them after all....
This is exactly what I'm talking about... your solution is more guards, more protection, bunkers, bombs, more guns... all fuel on the flames. Think outside the box. Change how you fundamentally think. Until you do, these problems will continue to plague you.
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ADP, your Canadian, I cant help but like you. Havent met one I dont like, and never did one let me leave sober :) There is an attitude problem, but its not one that causes people to die. Even if it were an attitude problem, its not guns that make it worse. Lets look at your statement and modify it to reflect recent events.
The solution to pressure cooker violence is not to add more pressure cookers, or put them into the hands of unqualified people (like teachers). Now thats insane. Its not the tool, its the person using it. No if somebody comes at me with a gun, I sure as hell want one too. In that situation, adding more guns WILL stop the violence. One person will die, ( hope it aint me ) and if its him, that guy who will have done it to others will no longer. Taking guns is not the answer. Since when to criminals obey laws anyways?
I am TOTALLY against taking away the guns. That will NOT work. I am about changing the attitudes towards the ones you already have. Educate your children... that's where this will change. Tell them owning a gun is a privilege, one you must earn. With that privilege comes great responsibility. Guns are not the first solution to any problem.
I agree... it's not the gun, it's the person. Guns are just the easiest solution to a mentally ill persons problems because they're effective and easy to access. America needs to change that.
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All I am trying to do is secure schools. How do we do that? You make them to difficult a target to hit. I think its very simple. And problems do escalate, and when they do, guns become a very viable solution. When a person wants to target a school, all other solutions have failed. Its either bring out the fire power or game over.
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This thread is in a downward spiral. I'm out while I still have a cool head.
I tried for 30 minutes to react appropriately to Adb's post, but this is the best I can do.
Adb: My "right" has nothing to do with being American. When someone threatens you with death or greivous bodily harm in any free country, you have the right to stop that threat. What you use, whether it be your size and strength, or a gun, is irrelevent...
unless you weren't born with the first two. For those people, it's kind of a big deal.
Paragraph 2: You can only legally use your pistols for target practicel. Your drug dealers buy stolen firearms which they use illegally to intimidate and kill on their turf.
Paragraph 3&5: The sociopath STOLE them. His mother was an idiot for leaving them unsecured, and paid with her life. The only place it's easy to get arms is the black market.
Paragraph 4: If using deadly force is your first line of defence, you're going to jail for a very, very long time, no matter what tool you use. Deadly force is always the last resort, when nothing else will deter the threat to your life.
4b. I don't care that everyone has them. I care that drug lords and gang bangers have them.
i. When my "problem" is having my life and the children around me threatened by coward
with an eye for fame, no, I'm not afraid to solve it with deadly force. I trust many of my
old high school teachers to be safer with a gun than most of the police I know.
Paragraph 6&7: Sir, you crapped on my front porch. I accept it and the reasons for it. Please don't cheapen it with an apology. I like you. My feelings remain unhurt.
Sleek: locking our children in boxes is a part of what leads to these tragedies. The bars work both ways.
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ADB,
A right in my mind is something that can't be taken away. ;) Get in a arguement with your wife, or girlfriend and the cops are called......you soon find out your "RIGHT" really is a privledge. :) Your privledge to own a gun has conditions, and those conditions may have nothing to do with a gun crime. The reason for the panic in the US over ammo and guns is because US citizens realize their rights at any time could be trampled on by those in power.....darn I mean privledge. ;) If the people REALLY believed the constitution was as solid as some may think.....there would be no panic!
I believe that most of the problems with our youths has to do with the breakdown of family values, and more importantly the exit of both parents to try to make a living. I wonder how many of these active shooters came from broken homes? Society has forced a choice between the has, and has nots....looser, the kids! See much of this crap before the 80's? ???
VMB
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I think we should all take a deep breath now. The fact is in the US your child is more likely to die of Leprosy than in a classroom shootout. Yes it happens as the Newtown massacre demonstrated, but it is an extremely rare occurrence. These kind of incidents are so rare and unpredictable (they are unpredictable precisely because they rarely happen) that I doubt that arming teachers, turning schools into fortresses or banning assault weapons and high capacity magazines would have any meaningful effect on child safety. As a society we would be better off allocating public resources and political capital on problems that we can actually impact - like suicide which is the number one cause of gun related death in our country and will kill more of our precious children in one year than classroom shootouts will ever. But that’s a different discussion…
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I figured my post might ruffle some feathers, but as I said several times, I meant no offense. America has some serious problems with gun violence. You have a gun culture, secured by your constitution. Having a gun culture is your choice, but along with that choice comes consequences. What should also come with that choice is responsibility, like safe storage, reasonable access, and healthy attitudes.
I really hope America can solve some of these problems. I don't have any immediate solutions, but I'm pretty sure nothing will change on your current path... in fact, it will probably worsen. Adding more fuel to the fire won't put it out.
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Pour 300 gallons of fuel oil on a campfire all at once. I would be surprised if it does not go out.
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You go first.
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ADB,
No offense taken by this American,
with all of the 24hr news sensationalism in our society today I can understand why you think the so called gun culture is the problem, but the fact is millions of Americans own a gun, make that plural,Guns; I own many guns myself. And millions of American gun owners are law abiding citizens, I have never been in trouble with the law the same as millions of my gun owning country men.
After the wild west days of the late 1800's, gun violence in America was a pretty rare occurence.
Until reciently.
The problem is societal,or more corectly,A break down of the society that we once had.
It all seemed to change right around the time of the multi million dollar 24hr a day news wars, now days you can become an instant celebirty by bombing a sporting event or shooting up a school, everybody in the world will know your name.
But it was not just the news wars that caused this problem there were other factors,we used to treat the mentally ill, now we don't,they were turned loose on the streets. we used to have places for the mentally ill, now we don't, if you have a loved one with a mental issue, your only option is to call the cops, they'll arrest him and then turn him loose because he did not commit a crime.
Both of the major political parties are democrats or republicans first, and Americans second, and the thing thier most successful at is dividing us, the result is that we talk around each other now, agreeing only with those that share our views, it's win at all costs, I'm right and your wrong. We used to be able to compromise, now if someone from one party even says something nice about someone in the other party, his fellow dems. or reps. try to replace him in the next election.
Families and neighborhoods have broken down, children are growing up with no rules of conduct or consequences for thier actions. our prison system deals with pot heads more harshly than thieves or kids caught with illegal weapons, and in many cases prison life is better than life on the streets for some of these kids.
We suspend kids from school for pointing a finger at a play pal and saying bang, only to send them home to play first person shooter games that teach them to kill people.
I could go on and on, theres lots more, but the point is the problem is societal, it's cultural.
All of these crimes are committed by the young today, but the responsibility lies with us, the adults it's our disfunction that allows and prompts these actions. We need to learn to work together for a better America again like we once did.We need to stop dictating to each other and start listening to each other.
You can't force someone to believe, you can only convince them.
Kevin
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That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Well said. We need to teach our children right and wrong, and give them healthy attitudes about things like guns.
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We need a Politician with a big set of "the boys", to make Gun Safety, taught in the schools, mandatory. And then find out why all of the people that lied on gun applications and were turned down were not prosecuted, which is a felony offence.
And, no offence taken with my Canadian friend either, ;) but, I'd really be upset if I could only target shoot with my Ruger Super Redhawk and not be able to hunt with it, what a waste. I would probably be a criminal in Canada.
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We need a Politician with a big set of "the boys", to make Gun Safety, taught in the schools, mandatory. And then find out why all of the people that lied on gun applications and were turned down were not prosecuted, which is a felony offence.
And, no offence taken with my Canadian friend either, ;) but, I'd really be upset if I could only target shoot with my Ruger Super Redhawk and not be able to hunt with it, what a waste. I would probably be a criminal in Canada.
Yes, I wish I could hunt with a handgun. If I could, I would. I think it's unfair and ridiculous that I can't. But, I wouldn't trade that for your predicament with gun violence.
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This is your news out of Canada copied for your enjoyment!
"Canada may be at a crossroads right now. Although there are these very positive findings [about murder rate], and we are relatively safe compared to most of the rest of the world, there are some clouds on the horizons.
A couple of the more disturbing trends are that gun violence appears to have gone up over the last decade. This gun violence has become increasingly concentrated within our most socially disadvantaged communities. It’s usually men, between 18 and 29, from our most economically disadvantaged communities, who in my own interviews are very economically and socially isolated from the rest of Canadian society.
Many have felt that we need to explore whether these trends have led to an increase in the severity of gang activity. I find that when you take those pieces of information and you link that to the economic information that is coming out of our urban centres, we’ve got something to be worried about."
Have fun !!
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1990s(U.S. Population: 248M-281M)
(Total number of schools: 132K) [67]
Main articles: Columbine High School massacre, Westside Middle School massacre, and Lindhurst High School shooting
According to a survey conducted in 1993 by The Harvard School of Public Health,[168] "15% [of students surveyed] said that they had carried a handgun on their person in the past 30 days, and 4% said that they had taken a handgun to school in the past year," a sharp increase from just five years earlier.
January 8, 1991, Richardson, Texas, Jeremy Wade Delle, 15, killed himself with a .357 Magnum in front of his second-period English class. The incident inspired the Pearl Jam song "Jeremy".
November 1, 1991 Iowa City, Iowa, University of Iowa shooting Former graduate student Gang Lu, 28, killed four members of the university faculty and one student, and seriously wounded another student, before committing suicide.
February 6, 1992 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, A 14 year-old student shot a 17 year-old student to death in a Douglass High School hallway, prompting the installation of metal detectors in city schools.
May 1, 1992: Olivehurst, California, Lindhurst High School shooting Eric Houston, 20, killed four people and wounded 10 in an armed siege at his former high school. Prosecutors said the attack was in retribution for a failing grade.
December 14, 1992: Great Barrington, Massachusetts, Wayne Lo, 18, shot and killed one student and one professor, and wounded three students and a security guard at Simon's Rock College.
January 18, 1993: Grayson, Kentucky, East Carter High School shooting Scott Pennington, 17, fatally shot his teacher, Deanna McDavid, and head custodian Marvin Hicks.[169]
According to the National School Safety Center, since the 1992-1993 U.S. school year there has been a significant decline in school-associated violent deaths (deaths on private or public school property for kindergarten through grade 12 and resulting from schools functions or activities):[170]
According to the U.S. Department of Education, in the 1998-1999 School Year, 3,523 students (57% High School, 33% Junior High, 10% Elementary) were expelled for bringing a firearm to school.[171]
December 17, 1993, Chelsea, Michigan, High school teacher Steven Leith walked out of a staff meeting, returned with a gun, fatally shot the school district's superintendent and wounded the principal and a teacher. The gunman, identified by co-workers as Steve Leith, a science teacher, was arrested at Chelsea High School, the police said. The shooting occurred about an hour after classes ended, during a staff meeting. The Police Chief, Lenard McDougall, said of the suspect: "I found him sitting in a chair in the classroom by himself. He said 'Hi,' and he was taken into custody. He was quiet, very quiet." A 9-millimeter semiautomatic gun was found outside the building, the police said. Joseph Piasecki, superintendent of Chelsea schools, died at Chelsea Community Hospital of multiple gunshot wounds. Phil Jones, 44, an English teacher, was treated for a stomach wound. The principal, Ronald Mead, 43, was shot in the leg.[172]
March 1, 1994: Boonville, Missouri, Dante D. Hayes, 33, a hunter and ex-convict, shot and killed Richard Vancena, 58, a cafeteria manager, and Robin Michelle Coleman, 33, a cook, in the mess hall of Kemper Military School and College. He was drunk and looking for his wife Anna Hayes with whom he had a fight the night before. No students were harmed. [173]
November 7, 1994: Wickliffe, Ohio, (Wickliffe Middle School shooting) Keith Ledeger, 37, a former student at the school, shot and killed custodian Pete Christopher and wounded four other adults.
January 12, 1995: Seattle, Washington, A 15-year-old Garfield High School student left school during the day and returned with his grandfather's 9mm semiautomatic handgun. He wounded two students.[174]
October 12, 1995: Blackville, South Carolina (Blackville-Hilda High School shooting) Anthony Sincino, 16, killed one teacher and wounded another before committing suicide.
November 15, 1995: Lynnville, Tennessee, (Richland High School shooting) James Rouse, 17, killed a student and teacher and seriously wounded another teacher with a .22-caliber rifle.
February 2, 1996: Moses Lake, Washington, (Frontier Middle School shooting) Barry Loukaitis, 14, killed a teacher and two students and wounded another student when he opened fire on his algebra class.
August 15, 1996: San Diego, California, (San Diego State University shooting) Frederick Martin Davidson, a 36-year-old graduate student killed three professors that he believed were involved in a conspiracy against him.
September 17, 1996: State College, Pennsylvania (Hetzel Union Building shooting) Jillian Robbins, 19, shot and killed one student and injured two outside Pennsylvania State University’s Hetzel Union Building.
February 19, 1997: Bethel, Alaska, Bethel Regional High School student Evan Ramsey, 16, shot and killed the school’s principal and one student, and wounded two other students..
October 1, 1997: Pearl, Mississippi, (Pearl High School shooting) Luke Woodham, 16, murdered his mother at home before killing his ex-girlfriend and another student and wounding seven others at Pearl High School. The perpetrator attempted to flee police and continue his killing spree at a nearby middle school, but he was stopped and detained by the Vice Principal,[175] Joel Myrick, who had retrieved his .45 caliber handgun from his car after hearing the shots fired. Woodham and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan.
November 27, 1997: West Palm Beach, Florida, Conniston Middle School student Tronneal Magnum, 14, fatally shot Johnpierre Kamel, 14, outside school after an argument over a wristwatch.[176]
December 1, 1997: West Paducah, Kentucky, (Heath High School shooting) Three students were killed and five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle.
December 15, 1997: Stamps, Arkansas Joseph “Colt” Todd, 14, concealed in a wooded area on school grounds, shot and wounded two students as they were entering Stamps High School.[177]
March 24, 1998: Craighead County, Arkansas, Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, killed four students and one teacher and wounded ten others as Westside Middle School emptied during a fire alarm intentionally set off by Golden.[178]
April 24, 1998: Edinboro, Pennsylvania, (Parker Middle School dance shooting) Andrew Wurst, 14, fatally shot teacher John Gillette, 48, and wounded two students and a teacher at an 8th grade graduation dance.
May 19, 1998: Fayetteville, Tennessee, Jacob Davis, 18, shot Robert Creson, 18, in a dispute over a girl.[179]
May 21, 1998: Springfield, Oregon, After killing his parents at home, Kip Kinkel, 15, drove to Thurston High School where he shot and killed two students and wounded 25 others.
June 15, 1998: Richmond, Virginia, A 14-year-old student of Armstrong High School wounded a teacher and a school volunteer.[180]
December 10, 1998: Detroit, Michigan, Professor Andrzej Olbrot was killed by graduate student Wlodzimierz Dedecjus, 48.[181]
April 20, 1999: Columbine, Colorado, (Columbine High School massacre) Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, killed 12 students and one teacher, and wounded 21 others before committing suicide at Columbine High School.
May 20, 1999: Conyers, Georgia, (Heritage High School shooting) Six students injured by Thomas Solomon Jr., 15.
June 8, 1999: Lynwood, California, 15 year-old Jessica Yvette Zavala and her 17 year-old cousin, Olivia Munguia, were shot by an unknown assailant outside Lynwood High School.
November 19, 1999: Deming, New Mexico, A 13-year-old girl fatally shot at Deming Middle School by Victor Cordova Jr., 13. Cordova stated he had intended to commit suicide but was jostled by others and the gun moved.[182]
[edit] 2000s(U.S. Population: 281M-308M)
(Total number of schools: 136K) [67]
Main articles: Virginia Tech massacre, Red Lake massacre, Amish school shooting, and Northern Illinois University shooting
Date Location Deaths Injuries Description
02000-02-29February 29, 2000 Flint, Michigan !Flint, Michigan 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 At Buell Elementary School, 6-year-old Dedrick Owens, the youngest-ever school shooter, shot and killed classmate Kayla Rolland.[183]
02000-05-26May 26, 2000 Lake Worth, Florida !Lake Worth, Florida 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 Lake Worth Middle School Florida teacher Barry Grunow was fatally shot by his student, 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill, who had returned to school after being sent home at 1 p.m. by the assistant principal for throwing water balloons. Brazill returned to school on his bike with a 5 inch Raven and four bullets stolen from his grandfather the week before. Brazill was an honor student. Grunow was a popular teacher and Brazill's favorite.[183]
02000-08-28August 28, 2000 Fayetteville, Arkansas !Fayetteville, Arkansas 0,000,0012 0,000,0010 University of Arkansas shooting at Fayetteville, Arkansas At approximately 12:14 pm, Dr. John R. Locke, 67, Director of the Comparative Literature Program was shot and killed in his office by James E. Kelly, 36, a Comparative Literature PhD candidate who had recently been dismissed from the program for lack of progress towards his degree. Kelly shot Dr. Locke three times before taking his own life in Dr. Locke's office after it was cordoned off by campus police.[184][185][186]
02000-09-26September 26, 2000 Louisiana !Louisiana 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 Darrel Johnson, 13, offender in Louisiana school shooting with 1 student fatality.[183]
02001-03-05March 5, 2001 Santee, California !Santee, California 0,000,0012 0,000,00113 Santana High School shooting: Charles Andrew Williams, a 15-year-old student, opens fires in Santana High School, killing two students and wounding 13 others. He was arrested and convicted of murder and attempted murder.[citation needed]
02001-03-07March 7, 2001 Williamsport, PA !Williamsport, PA 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 Elizabeth Catherine Bush, 14, wounded student Kimberly Marchese in the cafeteria of Bishop Neumann High School; she was depressed and frequently teased.[citation needed]
02001-03-21March 21, 2001 El Cajon, California !El Cajon, California 0,000,0010 0,000,0015 Jason Hoffman opened fire at Granite Hills High School, El Cajon, CA injury five people.[187]
02001-03-30March 30, 2001 Indiana !Indiana 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 Donald R. Burt Jr., age 18, offender in Indiana school shooting with 1 student fatality.[183]
02003-04-24April 24, 2003 Red Lion, Pennsylvania !Red Lion, Pennsylvania 0,000,0012 0,000,0010 On April 24, 2003, eighth-grade student James Sheets entered Red Lion Area Junior High School armed with his stepfather's pistols and subsequently killed the school's principal, Eugene Segro, before killing himself.[188]
02003-09-24September 24, 2003 Cold Spring, Minnesota !Cold Spring, Minnesota 0,000,0012 0,000,0010 John Jason McLaughlin, age 15, offender in Minnesota school shooting with 2 student fatalities.[183]
02004-02-02February 2, 2004 Washington, District of Columbia !Washington, District of Columbia 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 Unidentified offender in Washington, DC school shooting with 1 student fatality.[183]
02004-05-07May 7, 2004 Maryland !Maryland 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 Unidentified 17-year-old offender in Maryland school shooting with 1 student fatality.[183]
02005-03-21March 21, 2005 Red Lake, Minnesota !Red Lake, Minnesota 0,000,0019 0,000,0015 Red Lake massacre: Jeff Weise, a 16-year-old student, opened fire at the Red Lake Indian Reservation, first killing his grandfather and grandfather's companion. He drove his grandfather's police vehicle to his high school, Red Lake Senior High School. Weise was armed with his grandfather's police weapons—
a .40 caliber Glock 23 pistol, Ruger .22 caliber pistol, and a Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun. He shot and killed five students, one teacher, and then committed suicide. Five other people were wounded in the shooting.[citation needed]
02005-11-08November 8, 2005 Tennessee !Tennessee 0,000,0011 0,000,0012 Kenny Bartley, age 15, offender in Tennessee school shooting with 1 principal fatality.[183]
02006-02-23February 23, 2006 Roseburg, Oregon !Roseburg, Oregon 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 14-year-old freshman Vincent Wayne Leodoro shot 16-year-old Joseph Monti four times in the back with a 10mm semi-automatic handgun, in the courtyard of Roseburg High School. Leodoro then walked away from the school campus and stood in front of a restaurant where he was confronted by six police officers. Leodoro then placed the handgun to his head and threatened suicide, while customers inside the restaurant and police officers convinced him to not pull the trigger. Afterward, Leodoro surrendered. He was found guilty of attempted murder and assault in July 2006, and will be held in prison until he turns 25 years old.[189][190]
02006-08-24August 24, 2006 Essex, Vermont !Essex, Vermont 0,000,00ff11 0,000,0010 Christopher Williams walked into Essex Elementary School and opened fire, killing teacher Alicia Shanks after killing his ex-girlfriend's mother, Linda Lambessis, at home.[citation needed]
02006-09-27September 27, 2006 Bailey, Colorado !Bailey, Colorado 0,000,0012 0,000,0010 Platte Canyon High School hostage crisis: Duane Roger Morrison walked into Platte Canyon High School and took six girls hostages and sexually assaulted them. As police entered the classroom he killed one hostage and then shot himself. He died later that day in a nearby Denver hospital.[191]
02006-09-29September 29, 2006 Cazenovia, Wisconsin !Cazenovia, Wisconsin 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 Weston High School shooting: Eric Hainstock, a 15-year-old student, walked in the school building of Weston High School and shot the high school principal with a handgun after a custodian disarmed him of a shotgun in Cazenovia, Wisconsin. The school principal died, and Hainstock was charged and convicted of murder.[citation needed]
02006-10-02October 2, 2006 Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania !Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania 0,000,0016 0,000,0013 Amish school shooting: Charles Carl Roberts IV, a 32-year-old milk truck driver, shot to death five Amish girls and wounded five others before killing himself in an Amish school in the hamlet of Nickel Mines, in Bart Township, Lancaster County.[citation needed]
02007-02-08February 8, 2007 Prineville, Oregon !Prineville, Oregon 0,000,0011 0,000,001 A 18-year-old student at Crook County High School[192] died of a gunshot wound to the head in an apparent suicide in the school's parking lot.[citation needed]
02007-04-16April 16, 2007 Blacksburg, Virginia !Blacksburg, Virginia 0,000,00133 0,000,00125 Virginia Tech massacre: Seung-Hui Cho, age 23, shot and killed 32 students and faculty members, and wounded another 17 students and faculty members in two separate attacks on the same day. Cho committed suicide.[citation needed]
02007-10-10October 10, 2007 Cleveland, Ohio !Cleveland, Ohio 0,000,0011 0,000,0014 SuccessTech Academy shooting: Asa Coon, a 14-year-old suspended student, returns to SuccessTech Academy, where he fired shots at people inside the school building before committing suicide by shooting himself in the head. He shot and wounded two teachers and two students.[193]
02008-02-04February 4, 2008 Memphis, Tennessee !Memphis, Tennessee 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 At Hamilton High School, a 16-year-old student is shot in the leg during an argument with another student over music.[citation needed]
02008-02-11February 11, 2008 Memphis, Tennessee !Memphis, Tennessee 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 A 19-year-old senior is shot in his school's gym by a 17-year-old sophomore, following a feud that started off campus earlier in the week; after the shooting, the suspect hands his gun to a coach, saying, "It's over now."[citation needed]
02008-02-14February 14, 2008 DeKalb, Illinois !DeKalb, Illinois 0,000,0016 0,000,00121 Northern Illinois University shooting: Steven Kazmierczak shot multiple people in a classroom of Northern Illinois University, killing five and injuring 21, before committing suicide. Kazmierczak was not a student at the university, but had attended it the years prior to the attack.[citation needed]
02008-08-14August 14, 2008 Federal Way, Washington !Federal Way, Washington 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 26-year-old Omero Mende was sitting in his car parked on the Lakota Middle School campus to wait to pick up his girlfriend's son. There, he was confronted by 16-year-old Luis F. Cosgaya-Alvarez and two of his friends who were inside an SUV. Cosgaya-Alvarez flashed gang signs at Mendez, and then shot Mendez once in the head. Mendez later died of his injuries. Cosgaya-Alvarez was arrested a few days later in Seattle and was charged with murder.[194] Cosgaya-Alvarez pleaded guilty to murder and weapon enhancements and was sentenced to 18 years in prison.[195]
02009-01-09January 9, 2009 Chicago, Illinois !Chicago, Illinois 0,000,0010 0,000,0015 After a basketball game at Dunbar High School, a truck pulled over by the school, with shots being fired from inside it as people were exiting the school campus. Five people were wounded, three critically. Georgio Dukes, 18, was arrested and charged with five counts of felony aggravated battery with a firearm one week after the shootings. Police believe that the attack was gang-related.[196]
02009-04-26April 26, 2009 Hampton, Virginia !Hampton, Virginia 0,000,0010 0,000,0013 18-year-old Odane Greg Maye, a former student of Hampton University, followed 43-year-old pizza delivery man into his former dormitory, Harkness Hall. Armed with three guns, Maye took out one handgun and shot the pizza delivery man in the neck and stomach, wounding him. Maye then shot the dorm monitor twice in the arm and once in the leg. Maye shot himself in a suicide attempt. Odane was charged with two counts of aggravated malicious wounding, two counts of use of a firearm in the commission of a felony, breaking and entering while armed, possession of a firearm on school grounds and discharging a firearm in an occupied dwelling.[citation needed]
02009-05-18May 18, 2009 Cambridge, Massachusetts !Cambridge, Massachusetts 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 21-year-old Justin Cosby was shot in the basement common room at Kirkland House, an undergraduate resident hall of Harvard University. Cosby was taken to Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center with a gunshot wound in his abdomen, and died the next day. Four days later, 20-year-old Jabrai Jordon Copney, turned himself in for the murder of Cosby.[citation needed]
02009-05-18May 18, 2009 Larose, Louisiana !Larose, Louisiana 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 At Larose-Cut Off Middle School, Justin Doucet, a 15-year-old student, asked his teacher if he could use the restroom. While in the restroom, Doucet took out a .25-caliber semi-automatic handgun from his backpack and donned on camouflage clothes. The gun was registered to his father. Doucet entered a classroom that was not his, and pointed the handgun at the teacher. While walking towards the teacher, he demanded her to say "Hail Marilyn Manson!" and she did not respond. Doucet fired a shot at her, narrowly missing her head. Doucet walked back into the restroom where he shot himself in the head. He was transferred to Terrebonne General Medical Center in critical condition, and died one week later from his wounds.[197][198]
02009-06-16June 16, 2009 San Francisco, California !San Francisco, California 0,000,0010 0,000,0013 After students were being let out of International Studies Academy on the first day of summer school classes, a man exited a car and opened fire, wounding three people, including a 17-year-old female student. An 18-year-old man was arrested for being an accessory in the crime.[199]
02009-09-03September 3, 2009 San Bruno, California !San Bruno, California 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 A 20-year-old student was shot in the buttocks in the parking lot of Skyline College after an argument escalated between him and other men. Subsequently, the college campus was placed on lockdown. Three men San Francisco residents, Germaine B. Benjamin, 18; Dimaryea J. McGhee, 20; and Jacori W. Bender, 18, were arrested and were charged with felony firearm offenses.[200]
[edit] 2010s(U.S. Population: 308M+)
(Total number of schools: 140K) [67]
Main articles: Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting and Chardon High School shooting
Date Location Deaths Injuries Description
02010-02-05February 5, 2010 Madison, Alabama !Madison, Alabama 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 14-year-old Hammad Memon is accused of shooting to death 14-year-old Todd Brown in a crowded school hallway of Discovery Middle School. He is facing a murder charge.
02010-02-12February 12, 2010 Huntsville, Alabama !Huntsville, Alabama 0,000,0013 0,000,0013 2010 University of Alabama in Huntsville shooting: Amy Bishop Anderson, a biology professor, shot and killed three of her colleagues and wounded three others during a faculty meeting. In September 2012, she was sentenced to a life sentence without the possibility of parole, and is serving her sentence at the Julia Tutwiler Prison for Women.
02010-02-23February 23, 2010 Littleton, Colorado !Littleton, Colorado 0,000,0010 0,000,0012 At Deer Creek Middle School, Bruco Eastwood opened fire from a Winchester Model 70 rifle in a parking lot. Two students, one female and one male and both eighth graders, were both shot and wounded. The boy's wounds were critical for the four days following the shooting. Eastwood was taken down by teachers and held until his arrest. In October 2011, Eastwood was found not guilty by reason of insanity.
02010-09-28September 28, 2010 Austin, Texas !Austin, Texas 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 Colton Tooley, 19, a student at the University of Texas at Austin, fired multiple shots around the campus with an AK-47 semi-automatic rifle. Nobody was injured. After the shooting, Tooley walked into the Perry-Castañeda Library and then committed suicide.
02010-10-08October 8, 2010 Carlsbad, California !Carlsbad, California 0,000,0010 0,000,0012 Brendan Liam O'Rourke, 41, opened fire with a .357 handgun on a group of children during their lunch period at Kelly Elementary School. Two girls, ages 6 and 7, were hit and grazed by bullets. A construction worker held down O'Rourke until police arrived. O'Rourke wanted to target wealthy children and chose that school as his place of attack. He was sentenced to life in prison.
02010-10-10October 10, 2010 Salinas, California !Salinas, California 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 15-year-old student Jose Cisneros is shot to death on an athletic field at Alisal High School. Police said that the shooting was gang-related.[201]
02010-11-29November 29, 2010 Marinette, Wisconsin !Marinette, Wisconsin 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 Samuel Hengel, 15, took 23 students and a teacher hostage inside a classroom of Marinette High School for several hours. Before the hostage situation, Hengel stormed in the classroom with a handgun and fired shots at a movie projector while a movie was playing. After releasing all the hostages, police entered the building and Hengel shot himself in the head. He died the next day.
02010-12-06December 6, 2010 Aurora, Colorado !Aurora, Colorado 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 In a gang-related attack outside Aurora Central High School, a 17-year-old girl was shot and wounded. The wounds caused her to be paralyzed. Luis Enrique Guzman-Rincon, 20, fired shots from a car while students were standing outside the high school, trying to shoot at a group of students who were believed to be gang rivals. Guzman-Ricon was sentenced to 35 years in prison.[202]
02011-01-05January 5, 2011 Omaha, Nebraska !Omaha, Nebraska 0,000,0012 0,000,0012 At Millard South High School, Robert Butler Jr., 18, shot and killed Assistant Principal Dr. Vicki Kaspar, and wounded Principal Curtis Case. Butler then opened fire indiscriminately in the front office area, causing the school nurse to be injured by gunshot debris. Butler drove to a parking lot and then fatally shot himself.
02011-03-25March 25, 2011 Martinsville, Indiana !Martinsville, Indiana 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 Michael Phelps, a 15-year-old suspended student, returned to Martinsville West Middle School with a 9mm handgun. In the entrance of the school, Phelps encountered 15-year-old Chance Jackson and shot him twice in the abdomen. Phelps fled the school and dropped the handgun in a field and was arrested shortly after.[203] As a result, Jackson suffered from life threatening injuries and underwent surgery three times, and suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder. Phelps was convicted of attempted murder in August 2011, and was sentenced to 30 years in prison and 5 years of probation.[204][205]
02011-05-10May 10, 2011 San Jose, California !San Jose, California 0,000,0013 0,000,0010 Napoleon Lavarias Caliguiran, 54, shot and killed his 25-year-old wife and a 26-year-old man in the fifth level of a parking garage of the San Jose State University campus. Caliguiran shot himself and died later that night in a hospital.
02011-05-23May 23, 2011 Pearl City, Hawaii !Pearl City, Hawaii 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 A 14-year-old student is accused of firing a handgun on the campus of Highlands Intermediate School, wounding one student. The gunman was arrested on suspicion of attempted murder.
02011-10-24October 24, 2011 Fayetteville, North Carolina !Fayetteville, North Carolina 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 A 15-year-old girl was shot in the neck at Cape Fear High School. She was hospitalized in serious condition. A .22-caliber rifle was used in the attack. A student of the school, a 15-year-old male, was arrested and charged with attempted murder.
02011-12-08December 8, 2011 Blacksburg, Virginia !Blacksburg, Virginia 0,000,0012 0,000,0010 Ross Truett Ashley, 22, a part-time business student at Radford University, shoots and kills a police officer on the campus of Virginia Tech. Shortly after, he leaves the scene and returns and commits suicide.
02012-02-27February 27, 2012 Chardon, Ohio !Chardon, Ohio 0,000,0013 0,000,0013 Chardon High School shooting: Thomas "T.J." Lane, 17, is believed to have taken a Ruger MK III .22 caliber semi-automatic handgun and a knife to Chardon High School and fired ten shots at a group of students sitting at a cafeteria table. Three students died in the attack; a 16-year-old boy died immediately, and two other male students died from their wounds the following day. Three other students were injured. Lane was arrested when he was standing near his car parked near the school, and is charged as an adult with murder, attempted murder, and firearms offenses.[206]
02012-03-06March 6, 2012 Jacksonville, Florida !Jacksonville, Florida 0,000,0012 0,000,0010 At Episcopal School of Jacksonville, fired Spanish teacher Shane Schumerth, 28, shot and killed head of school Dale Regan before committing suicide. Schumerth, who had been struggling with depression, was fired for incompetency around 8:30 a.m. on March 6, 2012 and escorted off school grounds. He returned to the campus at 1:15 p.m. with an AK-47 assault rifle concealed in a guitar case. He entered Regan's office and shot her multiple times before turning the gun on himself.[207][208]
02012-04-07April 7, 2012 Oakland, California !Oakland, California 0,000,0017 0,000,0013 Oikos University shooting: One Goh is accused of shooting to death seven students and wounding three others in a classroom at Oikos University, a small Christian college. The gunman told the students in the classroom to line up against the wall, and exclaimed "I'm going to kill you all!" before firing the gun at them. He fled the scene, stealing a victim's car, and was apprehended hours later in a nearby location. The weapon used was a .45 caliber handgun. Goh is charged with seven counts of murder and is believed by his psychiatric to suffer from paranoid schizophrenia.
02012-08-16August 16, 2012 Memphis, Tennessee !Memphis, Tennessee 0,000,0010 0,000,0012 Two Hamilton High School students were shot and wounded in the parking lot of the school. The attack was believed to be gang-related.[209]
02012-08-24August 24, 2012 Homer, Georgia !Homer, Georgia 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 A 16-year-old student at Banks County High School fatally shot himself in a school restroom.
02012-08-27August 27, 2012 Perry Hall, Maryland !Perry Hall, Maryland 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 Robert Gladden, 15, allegedly took a double barrel shotgun to Perry Hall High School and fired shots inside the school cafeteria. A 17-year-old senior with Down syndrome was hit in the lower back while he was sitting at a table and suffered critical wounds. Gladden was immediately subdued by two school faculty members, and was arrested. He is being tried as adult for 9 counts of attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon.[210][211]
02012-09-07September 7, 2012 Normal, Illinois !Normal, Illinois 0,000,0010 0,000,0010 A student fired multiple gunshots in the ceiling of Normal Community High School, and was tackled by a teacher. Nobody was injured. A 14-year-old student was arrested and is charged with 16 felony counts.[212]
02012-09-26September 26, 2012 Stillwater, Oklahoma !Stillwater, Oklahoma 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 Cade Poulos, 13, shot himself in the head shortly before classes started at Stillwater Junior High School.[213]
02012-10-31October 31, 2012 Los Angeles, California !Los Angeles, California 0,000,0010 0,000,0014 At a Halloween party on the University of Southern California campus, an argument escalated and a man pulled out a handgun and shot Geno Hall seven times, critically wounding him. Three other people, who were not students of USC, were shot and wounded and hospitalized with less serious injuries. Brandon Spencer, 20, was arrested for the shooting.
02012-12-14December 14, 2012 Newtown, Connecticut !Newtown, Connecticut 0,000,00128 0,000,0012 Adam Lanza, aged 20, killed 26 people and himself at the Sandy Hook Elementary School. He first killed his mother at their shared home before taking her guns and driving to the school. Lanza brought four guns with him; A Bushmaster .223 caliber XM15-E2S rifle, a Glock 10mm handgun, a Sig-Sauer P226 9mm handgun, and a Izhmash Saiga-12 12 gauge shotgun which was later found in the trunk of the car and not used in the shootings.[214] During the attack, 20 first-grade children aged six and seven were killed, along with six adults, including four teachers, the principal, and the school psychologist. Two others were injured. Lanza used the Bushmaster .223 caliber rifle against all of the victims at the school. He then took his own life with one of the handguns as police arrived at the school. According to the state's chief medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver, all of the victims were shot between 3 and 11 times.
02013-01-10January 10, 2013 Taft, California !Taft, California 0,000,0010 0,000,0012 A gunman entered a science classroom of Taft Union High School with a 12 gauge shotgun and opened fire. A 16-year-old male student, identified as Bowe Cleveland, was shot in the chest and critically wounded. Another student was shot at, but was not hit. The classroom teacher, Ryan Heber, convinced him to drop his weapon, and the gunman followed his order and was later arrested. Additionally, Heber suffered a minor wound from being grazed by a shotgun pellet during the ordeal. The gunman is suspected to be a 16-year-old student of the school, Bryan Oliver. Cleveland and the other student that was shot at are both believed to be intended targets of the gunman. On January 14, Oliver was charged with two counts of attempted murder and assault with a firearm.[215][216]
02013-01-12January 12, 2013 Detroit, Michigan !Detroit, Michigan 0,000,0010 0,000,0011 A 16-year-old boy was shot in a field across the school campus after a basketball game was held at Osborn High School. He was hospitalized in serious condition.[217]
02013-01-15January 15, 2013 St. Louis, Missouri !St. Louis, Missouri 0,000,0010 0,000,0012 A gunman shot an administrator in his office on the fourth floor of Stevens Institute of Business and Arts, wounding him. The suspected gunman, Sean Johnson, a part-time student, shot and wounded himself on a stairwell. Both the administrator and Johnson were hospitalized in stable conditions. Johnson was charged with three felony charges, including assault.[218]
02013-01-15January 15, 2013 Hazard, Kentucky !Hazard, Kentucky 0,000,0013 0,000,0010 Two people are shot and killed and a third person was wounded at the parking lot of Hazard Community and Technical College. The third victim, 12-year-old Taylor Cornett, died from her wounds the next day. 21-year-old Dalton Lee Stidham was arrested and charged with three counts of murder.[219]
02013-01-16January 16, 2013 Chicago, Illinois !Chicago, Illinois 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 A 17-year-old boy, Tyrone Lawson, was shot to death in a parking lot of Chicago State University. The shooting happened after high school basketball games were being held on the university campus, and Lawson was a spectator at the event. Police arrested two people after the shooting and recovered a weapon.[220]
02013-01-22January 22, 2013 Houston, Texas !Houston, Texas 0 3 Between the Library and Academic Building outside of Lone Star College–North Harris, two men got into an argument and one of the men pulled out a gun and shot the other man, a student, injuring him. A maintenance man suffered a gunshot wound to the leg. The gunman accidentally shot himself in the leg. After the shooting, the gunman fled into the woods and was arrested hours later. The charges against the initial suspect were dropped and another man was arrested.[221]
02013-01-29January 29, 2013 Midland City, Alabama !Midland City, Alabama 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 2013 Alabama bunker hostage crisis: A gunman, believed to be a man in his 60s, boarded a school bus and shot the bus driver, Charles Albert Poland Jr., 66. Poland was killed. The gunman abducted a 6-year-old child and held him hostage in an underground bunker.[222]
02013-01-31January 31, 2013 Atlanta, Georgia !Atlanta, Georgia 0 2 A 14-year-old male student was shot and wounded in the back of the neck at Price Middle School. The gunman, a student, was believed to be arguing with the other student before taking out a handgun and firing multiple shots at him. In addition, a teacher was injured during the shooting. Afterward, the gunman was disarmed by a school resource officer and subsequently apprehended.[223][224]
02013-03-18March 18, 2013 Orlando, Florida !Orlando, Florida 0,000,0011 0,000,0010 At the University of Central Florida, 30-year-old student James Oliver Seevakumaran pulled a fire alarm went off at the Tower 1 dormitory. According to plans he had written, Seevakumaran intended to attract a large amount of people inside the building to gather and shoot them. He then pointed a handgun at his roommate and threatened to shoot him inside their dormitory room. Seevakumaran released his roommate who ran into a bathroom to call 911. Seevakumaran then fatally shot himself in the head. Authorities found an assault weapon, a couple hundred rounds of ammunition and four homemade bombs inside his backpack.[225]
02013-04-19April 19, 2013 Cambridge, Massachusetts !Cambridge, Massachusetts 0,000,0012 0,000,0011 At the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, near Building 32 (Stata Center) at 10:48 p.m. EDT,[226] a campus police officer was shot multiple times.[227] The officer, 26-year-old Sean Collier, was taken to Massachusetts General Hospital in nearby downtown Boston, where he was pronounced dead. The shooting was believed to be perpetrated by the suspects of the Boston Marathon bombings that took place in Boston three days prior to this shooting.[228][229] The two suspects are brothers Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
About three hours after the MIT shooting, Tamerlan died in a gunfight with police in Watertown, Massachusetts. In that gunfight, another officer was shot and seriously wounded. Dzhokhar was arrested 18 hours afterward in Watertown, and was hospitalized in critical condition from a gunshot wound to the neck. The gunshot wound was possibly from a suicide attempt.
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This is your news out of Canada copied for your enjoyment!
"Canada may be at a crossroads right now. Although there are these very positive findings [about murder rate], and we are relatively safe compared to most of the rest of the world, there are some clouds on the horizons.
A couple of the more disturbing trends are that gun violence appears to have gone up over the last decade. This gun violence has become increasingly concentrated within our most socially disadvantaged communities. It’s usually men, between 18 and 29, from our most economically disadvantaged communities, who in my own interviews are very economically and socially isolated from the rest of Canadian society.
Many have felt that we need to explore whether these trends have led to an increase in the severity of gang activity. I find that when you take those pieces of information and you link that to the economic information that is coming out of our urban centres, we’ve got something to be worried about."
Have fun !!
I'm not saying Canada is perfect... far from it. But we have no where near the number of gun related violent incidents or murders. We don't have a gun culture in Canada like the USA. Yes, we have plenty of guns (and I have my fair share), but I believe we have a much different attitude towards them. Owning guns is not our constitutional right. I have to earn the right to own guns, and I have to maintain that right with common sense. Canadians don't solve their issues with gun violence... we don't think of it as our first option. Check out the gun related murder stats between Detroit and Windsor. Two cities within spitting distance, only separated by a border. In 2011, there was 1 case in Windsor... in Detroit, 358 in the same time period. There is a reason for this.
Like I said... we play hockey, have fist fights, and drink beer!! ;D ;) 8)
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Gun safety being taught in school won't solve our problems with violence, nor will making more laws about firearms when we don't enforce the laws we currently have on the books. Fixing the mental health issues we have in our country will go a long way toward helping the current situation. As to looking how well our friends across our northern border do it, you allowed your Prime Minister to be hit in the face with a pie (no security problems there) and you play hockey, have fist fights, and drink beer!! It sounds like a great time if you are into juvenile High School hijinks. I don't think that's a direction we as a nation need to go.
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How does our PM getting hit in the face with a pie have anything to do with gun violence in the USA? But, that being said, would you rather get a pie in the face, or a bullet in the face? But, if you want to talk breaches of Presidential security... three names... Lincoln, Kennedy, and Reagan.
I already said our country isn't perfect. It's not, but we do not have the same attitudes towards guns. As a result, we don't have the same problems.
Do you honestly think your country is heading in a good direction? Are you currently happy with your situation? And I'm just talking about the issue at hand... gun violence, and more specifically arming teachers.
As far as playing hockey, having fist fights and drinking beer goes... I was attempting to add a small amount of humour to a very serious issue. But, then again, I'd rather do those things than live with your issues.
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I live in a free country. My ancestors came here from Europe in the 1700s. Members of my family fought for that freedom. Both of my Grandfathers fought in WWII. The price you've paid is no higher. My father and grandfather taught me about guns and shooting and hunting. But, that's not what we're talking about.
My point is... Americans and Canadians have different attitudes about guns. Those choices have consequences. If you're not happy with your current situation, change it. You're either part of the problem, part of the solution, or part of the scenery. America has a serious problem. You need to fix it. You can't do that until you admit you have a problem.
Anyway, as I've always said, I'm not looking to offend anyone... just provide food for thought. I don't think I can add anymore to the point I'm trying to make, so I won't.
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Well,,, After reading the post some of y'all are deleting and seeing where this is going ::) it is almost time for a Moderator,(me) to put a stop to this post.
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Well,,, After reading the post some of y'all are deleting and seeing where this is going ::) it is almost time for a Moderator,(me) to put a stop to this post.
Thanks Eddy.. Folks I feel this is a subject that needs discussion with like minded folks "us."
BUT we MUST remember the RULES.
PLEASE
Bottom line is you are all wrong... And you are all right. Me included. There's not one solution. Not one right option and one wrong option. It's a SOCIATEL ill that's so horrible wrong and twisted that leaves us all with no easy solution.
Cipriano
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Debating is an intellectual exchange of differing views.....with no winners! :laugh:
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I live in a free country. My ancestors came here from Europe in the 1700s. Members of my family fought for that freedom. Both of my Grandfathers fought in WWII. The price you've paid is no higher. My father and grandfather taught me about guns and shooting and hunting. But, that's not what we're talking about.
My point is... Americans and Canadians have different attitudes about guns. Those choices have consequences. If you're not happy with your current situation, change it. You're either part of the problem, part of the solution, or part of the scenery. America has a serious problem. You need to fix it. You can't do that until you admit you have a problem.
Anyway, as I've always said, I'm not looking to offend anyone... just provide food for thought. I don't think I can add anymore to the point I'm trying to make, so I won't.
I think it would be more precise to say that Americans and SOME Canadians have different attitudes about guns, certainly not all of them
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Point taken... I meant generally we have different attitudes about guns. Pretty tough to say ALL.
This is a very contentious issue. I am a bit surprised it was allowed at all by Admins & Mods due to its political nature, but I think we have managed to agree and disagree with civility for the most part.
I don't think as a Canadian that I'm going to change the mind of many Americans, but I don't have to be American to have an opinion. Americans have strong views on their constitutional rights, including firearms. I'm not saying that is bad. There is good and bad with all of it, including our very restrictive gun laws. Guns are not going to go away, gun owners are not going to allow them to be taken away... what we have to do is to learn to live with them with some intelligence and common sense. Whether this can be achieved at all is up to every individual gun owner.
I will say again... no offense to ANYONE. Just healthy debate... like vinemaple said... no winners, no losers.
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Safe storage is an attitude, which you can't legislate. Even with existing laws, you can't guarantee it... here in Canada or the USA. How did the young fellow who shot up the school recently get his hands on assault weapons? They were available, and not locked up... regardless of where he got them, stolen or otherwise. Responsible gun ownership starts with every individual.
I've already offered some stats to back up my opinions. Go back and read them. Murder rates with firearms in Windsor/Detroit. Those are hard facts, illustrating my point.
I would ask you to do the same, if that's important to you.
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Quite frankly I think that having at least one teacher well trained and licensed to carry concealed in the schools to be a good idea. Having the requirement that this teacher be extremely well trained and licensed would weed out those that are not all that committed to the task.
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If our government would stop sending $$$ aid to foreign countries that continue to stab us in the back. And they send way too much of our tax dollar's over seas, instead of sending it to our states that could really use the help. There would be resources to place an armed guard in every school in our country, or supply one local law officer in the community to be a guard at the local school in their area. Heck just parking a police car out front of the schools could help. I don't think every teacher should be carrying a side arm, some are not capable of using one. The problem is not with gun laws, or locking up our personal weapons, all criminal's or wacko's could care less about laws, and they can buy a weapon on the black market anytime they want. It's sad, but shootings like happened at that SCHOOL ARE GOING TO HAPPEN. Just like the Boston bombings. What really sucks is our justice system. How many millions of dollars are spent in lawyer fees and trials every year and keeping the criminals in jail for years, when you know damn well they are guilty. I say hang them high and be done with it.
Sorry guys but that's how I feel. I own guns and have ammo , the guns are are empty and ammo is locked up, and when the grandkids are here I keep a close eye on them. But I pitty the poor bustard that tries to break into my house or harm my family. There will be NO trial. But that's just how some of us roll. Life really sucks sometimes. And these discussions could go on forever and prove nothing.
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Remember when there used to be insane asylums for real, crazy people? ::)
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Ronald Reagan shut them down.